It's ok to be angry...its what you do with the anger that can be a problem.

Go back up and read the post I wrote to you the first time you admitted to being angry.

Reread, follow the instructions! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Find that private book and start writing. Let lose all the angry outbursts and DJs you need to in that book, not on here.

You're right. I forgot about the book. I did vent in an e-mail to a friend...said some pretty nasty things.

Patriot called. He wants me to come out to his work for lunch today.

I'm done being angry.

I just don't know where to begin sometimes. I also don't know why I have to keep "beginning".

I'm not leaving. I am committed to this marriage and I am making the choice to love him today. I do love him.

I get so frustrated sometimes because it seems like he wants me to do everything for him. I want to help him, but I can't do it all for him.

He is a good man with a good heart and I feel bad for being so darn hard on him sometimes.

I've been thinking maybe I'm not a INFP, after all. I haven't taken that test since I was about 15. I think I'll retake it later today, just to see.

If list-making is not a characteristic, I've changed a bunch since 15.

I wish someone could just tell me "Do A, then B, then C...and this will all be fixed."

Instead they say "heal, grow, change, etc..."

I need a plan. You can accomplish anything if you have a plan.

Sometimes it gets so hard to work towards anything or maintain some sort of focus because it hurts...really, really hurts. Marriage Building would be a snap without all this pain in the way.

I think I'll try that number I have for my biological mother's brother. I don't even know if it's the right number. I figure she already rejected me, so what do I have to lose? I just want to know if she's okay. If I try and don't get that information, I'm still at the same place (not knowing) so I might as well try.

I wish I could tell her that there isn't anything she could do to make me not love her. I wish she knew there wasn't anything I wouldn't forgive her for. I wish she didn't feel guilty.

Thanks for helping ground me. I really am done being angry today. I'll remember the book next time.

Froz,

Just a thought:

When issues came up with my husband, I would make a note of them in my SH MB notebook - so that I could remember to discuss them with him at the next coaching appointment.

A few days before the appointment I would fax him a compilation of things I wanted to discuss so that he would have information in advance. This helped me make the most of the time spent on the phone! Helped keep me organized too. And now I have a great notebook of my particular issues and the solutions for them that I can still review when I need to be grounded!

This is going to be a rough response, but I am going to give it a try.


me too. I am grateful that I don't have to manage this additional drama in our lives together. This one would fall under the 'too big to deal with' category. Not trying to run from it. But, I don't find it very productive to spend time trying to figure out how to eat without both unless I am actually missing both arms. It's great that I still have both arms, but what have I really gained by learning to eat without them? I guess I am trying to say that given the size of the issue(potentially) I opt to cross the bridge when I get there. I already knew about the pregnancy. I did worry about it. But, per NC, whatelse could I really do? I suppose I could have discussed my feelings with froz about it more, but in my mind that sure didn't seems to help much of anything. I am sure it would have been nice to simply communicate with my wife, but this was an issue I could not resolve. Either the baby is mine or not and whats done is done. Not sure if I am making sense on this... my communication skills are subpar at best. Baby or not, I don't want to live life in perpetual misery. Pondering the bleakness of this situation seemed just simply miserable. Nothing I could do to change it. Anyway, it certainly appears that the OC is not mine. Which is good. However, isn't the "yea!" from that tainted by the fact that I am even in the position of worry to begin with? Man, does that suck.


If I gain nothing else from this site the one thing I will have is more one-liner quotes than the archives at Readers Digest. Not that this is a bad line and I like the message it sends...but after I absorbed the idea from it, it made me think of the plethora of one-line tidbits of wisdom around here. We should all be rich, since Readers Digest pays like $300 dollars for printing your line. Anyway, thats my little humor anecdote for the day.


I love this woman. More than anything in the world. but, sometimes, she is no fun to be around. Sure, we have horrible issues to deal with. Yes, I caused them. The why is really not all that hard to comprehend for me anymore. I just have to tell froz. I have not been hiding it. I only found it recently. Anyway, I would not try to stay away from 'difficult" discussions during the good times if I thought we could stay in a good time for any length. So, I am selfish in that I want to be happy at least for some portion of a week. But, inevitably, we have a good time(like the timeframe after the call to SH) and then we don't talk about issues for a little bit. Then I see the 'good time' slipping away and I'll be damned if I am gonna just murder it with A talk. Or here's how I am a horrible person talk. Or whatever. All I am saying is I feel like I would be more able to discuss the elephants in the room if I thought I could get away from them(totally) for a timeframe to get a break. The biggest thing I need that I will not get is a vacation. I feel like I can't unplug. And I am running on overload as it is. So figure out a way to unplug, you say. Well, I would love too, but in the average day, I've got from around 5pm to 10pm to do anything around the house. This includes spend time with my wife(there are other times for that as well but I am just taking a generic case), upkeep on the house, relax(because a work day can be stressful), clean something(usually the kitchen for me and we have teenagers, so it is always a messy place), maybe read something for school, maybe work on something in the software area(since I am going to be falling back on those rusting skills soon for primary employment) and many other things that just continually come up, all of which I call life. The point is I need a break from things sometimes, and in 10 months, I can't think of one break I have gotten. Maybe there are some. I can't remember them. Every single day is filled with reminders and stresses. That gets old. Makes me edgy. Makes me want to just get away from it all any way I can. This arguement is easily destroyed I am sure, but people need time to decompress on an issue. Going out to the computer and playing a game would seem to fit the bill because I love a good computer game. It doesn't. I feel guilty for being on the computer. Nothing seems to have a good outcome. I try to relax, but no good because I have neglected her. I try to talk about an issue(granted, not often), but no good because she is not in the mood or she had to 'beat' it out of me so now she isn't interested.

Also, a different idea, maybe, that I just thought of. It is confusing for me that I am asked to discuss my feelings and how things make me feel, but when I do, I have 'made it about me" or invalidated her feelings.

How about this one. Because of the whole possible OC issue, she began communicating with OW's OM#2(yes thats right, like pork... the other other man.). She was after info about the pregnancy and the OW. This was during the "stalking" phase. Well, she has still talked to this guy as recently as this past weekend. Silly... I just thought by talking about this issue, that I would be "ratting" her out. Or maybe trying to rat her out better than she ratted me out. I'm not. She has gotten mad at me for being mad about it. Like 'you went out and screwed some OW for a year and a half and all I am doing is talking with this guy' and ' I feel entitled' I do not want this man to be a part of my life. Ever. Nor anywhere in it. That is not conflict avoiding. That is making a concise decision. He is not to be part of my equation in life. "what do you have against him" I heard. He obviously has no issue sleeping with a married woman AND he is now talking to you. There is more to this, but her defense is " I know I would never hurt you like you hurt me"

That is a lie. Maybe lie is to strong. What it really is.. is this. A statement made by someone who lacks the credentials to make it. A foolish remark. An uneducated statement. To believe you are not capable of something is bunk. And, I extend, makes you more vulnerable to do it....even if just a wee bit more. Anyway, ramble ramble...


No, Gimble. I have not. Not the way I would want her to pursue me. I recognize that as an issue. Sometimes I pick one thing up and drop another. And sometimes I just want a break. The bad thing about a break, is sometimes I don't know how to get back into it. Yes, I know this is an area of work I need to focus on.

More later. I have rambled and now it is time to go.

The single biggest reason I believe in her and I is this.

For all the things I need to learn and change I don't have to learn that I love her. I love her and that is fact. She is the greatest woman anywhere. As they say, the rest is just details.

Well, froz and I had a talk last night. She is very angry at me for not being able to try on her pain. She says I will never understand it and that my words here prove it.

I really am not trying to be short-sighted here, so, maybe someone could tell me what "trying on the BS's pain" works like. I definitely want to be more sensitive to her and not say things "that a dumba** WS would say because they don't get it"

Something interesting on the conflict avoidance front. Dealing with elephants. How do you deal with an elephant? one bite at a time. Not ignoring or avoiding them. But, something I thought was interesting was the fact that she (and maybe I helped) came up with this little formula for know when something is an elephant and needs to be talked about. When it is the most uncomfortable thing I cn think to talk about. Then talk about it. An interesting concept and was brought up by the "there might be an OC" issues. We did talk about it some, but it was still uncomfortable...so it warranted more discussion.

Also, instead of using so many I messages, I need to use more We messages. I know what that means. You don't have to...lol.

I would like to continue with SH soon, but the price of admission is a little steep... so I will have to work that in somehow.

More later, I am sure.

Yes, you behaved very badly. No doubt. However, you did not single-handedly cause all the "horrible issues" your relationship needs to work through.

Hi, Patriot.

Quote:
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Well, froz and I had a talk last night. She is very angry at me for not being able to try on her pain. She says I will never understand it and that my words here prove it.
=================================

The only way to try on someone else's pain is to imagine the roles reversed. The only way to understand someone else's pain is to go through a very similar circumstance yourself. Regardless, you will never completely know someone else's pain.

I will never completely know the pain I caused others, and brother, I caused some. No one will ever know much of my pain, as much of it has never, and will never, be revealed.

You will never understand Frozen's pain completely. You will be lucky to understand it partly. I pray that you never understand it because you go through what she has been through.

It is an unrealistic expectation to have another understand someone else's pain unless you have experienced it. All you can do is try to comfort and reassure her that you will never cause her such pain again.

Much of your pain you will unwillingly learn to live with, and it will eat at you until you find a place of forgiveness or acceptance. Even then, the memory of it will haunt you occasionally, just like Frozen's memories will haunt her. What has been done can not be undone.

God bless,
Gimble

Froz ... you have no business talking to OW's OM#2 .... THAT is not marriage building but distancing behavior on your part ! How do you like them beans?

Egg-zak-lee

Not sure what you're implying here. If you're trying to say that I have made mistakes in Recovery, I'll be the first to agree. If you're trying to say I helped lay the groundwork for the A, that is crap.




I have pretty much given up trying to get him to understand it. He just looks at me blankly when I describe it to him in vivid detail.

I'm not sure why it was so important for him to understand it. I just wanted him to understand how I felt more than anything. I really thought a lot of my behavior might not seem so bizarre to him if he knew what it felt like. I also wanted him to know, really know, how badly he hurt me. For if he knew, he would surely never do it again. I know what's done can't be undone, but how I wish it could! I would give anything to change it. But, like I said...I've given up trying to get him to feel it. It's futile.

As for praying he never has to actually go through it himself...no worries. That isn't going to happen. It just isn't. I will never choose that, not only because I don't want to hurt him, but because I have no desire to do something like that to myself.

Besides, I know that he wouldn't actually feel what I'm feeling if I did choose that route. He's not as emotional as I am and wouldn't perceive it the same way. Also, he would probably figure he deserved it. I don't want him to "try on my pain" THAT badly. It just would have been nice to feel understood.




How do I like it? Do you really think I'm going to disagree or try to justify it? I'm not. I knew it wasn't a good idea. I did it anyway. I won't talk to him anymore.

Froz,

If you and Patriot decide to coach with SH again he will address the following issue quite thoroughly.

"I'm not sure why it was so important for him to understand it. I just wanted him to understand how I felt more than anything. I really thought a lot of my behavior might not seem so bizarre to him if he knew what it felt like. I also wanted him to know, really know, how badly he hurt me. For if he knew, he would surely never do it again. I know what's done can't be undone, but how I wish it could! I would give anything to change it. But, like I said...I've given up trying to get him to feel it. It's futile."

It's a cornerstone of his recovery plan for Patriot. And it had to be one of the most difficult parts of coaching for my husband. He had to take several tries at it before SH gave him a passing grade and we could move on. And I'm happy to say when he finally was able to accomplish understanding my feelings regarding his affair - it was a huge turning-point for me, and helped me find real peace.

CSue,

SH actually did broach the subject with me. We didn't discuss it thoroughly.



That sounds like it would be beneficial, but I don't expect it anymore. If it happens...great. I'll be pleasantly surprised. If it doesn't, I'll just have to accept it.

By the way, I don't think I've ever told you that I appreciate your responses and the manner in which you share your experiences with me.

Sometimes I don't respond to something you've said to me, because it is usually information and food for thought, as opposed to questions. I just wanted to tell you that I listen to you, what you say is helpful, and I appreciate it.

Thank you very much.

Actually, my purpose in replying to Patriot was to GIVE HIM SOME ENCOURAGEMENT coz I think he needs some !!!! I don't think it is helpful for Patriot to feel that he carries the entire weight of every problem in the marriage 100% on his back. I admire your husband's efforts. I admire his struggle with his own failing .... a tough thing for any proud man to deal with. I'm trying to pick him up when I sense he's feeling overwhelmed.


Both of you have made mistakes in recovery as well as before the affair was even discovered. You're both human. Two kewl humans.


Of course that's crap. I would never say that. I hold Patriot accountable for his errors (especially BIG ones involving mortal sin as it is perceived in my religion), and you accountable for yours. Why? Because that is the only way to make things better .... everyone claiming ownership of their own errors.



I agree that it is a fine thing to understand the depth of how we harm others by our misdeeds. Except you cannot ~make~ your FWH understand .... that depends on his openness to understanding ... and that door is opened with much caution by the WS (not just your husband ... all WS) .... mostly because it involves addressing so much of their own shame it cannot be done all at at once. Too devestating.

This just floors me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. I hope so.

I admire his efforts, too. I tell him pretty frequently. I also continuously remind him that I am grateful for his committment. He's nevered wavered on that one...not once.

I wish he would paint an accurate portrait of what really goes on here. His posts sometimes make it sound as though he is just this poor, helpless victim of the wrath of some vengeful psycho-hater wife.

I feel really misunderstood.

Of course, neither of us is perfect, yet he posts about his efforts and sometimes the lack of them...next thing you know...it's all "Poor Patriot...the poor guy is trying so hard. How does he put up with it???"

I post something and receive a slew of 2X4's, which is okay. I can obviously handle it and view it as an opportunity to grow.

It's just kind of irritating sometimes. Maybe it's because there aren't just tons of WS's or FWS's putting forth the effort, and there are tons of BS's trying so hard - I don't know.



Who's asking him to carry it 100%? Not me! In none of the responses he has received do I hear anyone holding him accountable for anything during Recovery. It seems the answer to every obstacle is "Froz needs to do this, and Froz needs to do that". "Froz needs to lower her expectations". "Froz needs to manage her anger." "Froz needs to face this or that".

He gets "Patriot, have you done this" His reply..."No, I haven't." "Oh, okay Patriot...keep up the good work."

????????????????

I have posted before for all to see "Things Patriot has done right". I tell him on an even more frequent basis in real life.

But, you know what? I cannot carry the responsibility of Recovery completely on my shoulders, either. I need help. The only way to light a fire under him is when I finally get frustrated with him and vocalize it. THEN he takes action. Then he stops, and he goes back to "Let's pretend everything is okay and stop working". I don't want to badger him to get anything done. I can't force him. So, I stop. Inevitably, we become distant because we aren't working together. Then he gets frustrated because we're distant!!!!

I make a mistake and get whacked for it. He makes a mistake and gets a pat on the back and a "You'll do better next time".



Geez, the poor guy...it's so devastating to face how you destroyed someone else. I'm sure it is.

It's no easy task to continue to love, be caring and supportive and kind to the very person who devastated you BY CHOICE! Guess what? I got to bear the burden of his shame...ALL AT ONCE! I try to choke it down every single day and still be strong enough to try to be supportive, kind and patient, while he continues to put his needs before mine and hold on to the belief that "I love her, so the rest is just details."

He loved me during the A, too. Where did that get us?

Vent concluded...I'm now an open target. Feel free to tear it to shreds.

I'm sure he'll need plenty of "support" after this.

This is frustrating.

It takes 2 healthy and strong and determined people to face the daunting task of recovery ... and I reserve the right to give your husband a bit of encouragement when I think it may help .... because in the long run ... it benifits you if it makes recovery more likely.

Surely you have no objection for Patriot receiving support, do you?

HE was asking it of himself. I pointed out that was an UNreasonable expectation ~of himself~.

I was not adressing your actions at all.

PS

You don't need anyone to tear you to shreds .... you do that just fine all by yourself !

Froz ~ it's late and i'm pretty exhausted so I won't give a more comprehensive reply.

After reading what you both wrote, I think that Patriot needs a break from relationship talk. Big time. My husband had the same identical issues with our recovery.

I had to learn to back off.

Believe it or not you need it to.

And finally, the sense of entitlement in either spouse is a relationship killer.

Oh and one more comment.

In recovery, the rules apply equally to both spouses. My husband was teh cheater. We both account to each other for time, share passwords, email access, we both keep our computers in public. We neither of us carry on any relationships that the other has a problem with.

Froz, if your husband objects to your relationship with a man, you darn well owe him the respect and courteousy of stopping that lovebusting behavior.

And that means, Patriot's feelings and needs carry equal weight to yours.