I'm glad he receives support, but not when supporting his behavior enables him to continue to repeat the same mistakes over and over.



Then let him! I have told him before to ask for what he needs. If he needs a break...TELL ME, and then do it. He won't.

After I read what he posted last night about needing a break, but saying he couldn't because he has all these responsibilities...my first thought was to give it to him. It is totally untrue that he "can't" take a break. He has a cushy government job with paid vacation...he has about a week accrued. I'm quite sure I can handle the household chores.

I told him, take a few days...take the whole week. I even offered a couple of suggestions for places to go. He has a friend out of state that would probably love a visit from him. My parents have a peaceful cabin at the lake about 3 hours away. GO UNPLUG, if that's what he needs. He declined. I told him I would totally be supportive of it. If it would help him, I would love for him to do it.

And I have backed off. I don't talk about this crap every minute of the day. HE DOES! In fact, he gets upset if I am not in the mood to talk about it.

I have also told him to play his computer games guilt-free. I told him I don't mind. I have told him repeatedly to just ask for what he needs, and I'll give it to him...I'll even do it cheerfully...whatever it takes to recharge him. I agree, and don't even consider it a sacrifice.

But, it's unfair of him to complain that he feels so pressured (to do what, I'm not sure) when he is unwilling to "decompress".



He has all my passwords, and I'm an open book. I have never lied to him about correspondence of any kind. I haven't lied to him about much at all, that I can recall. I account for my time, as well.

Owe? Does that not denote some form of entitlement? I agree I owe him that respect and courtesy. It's been taken care of. It's done.

But here's a question...if I owe him that, what exactly does he "owe" me?

Froz ~ did it occur to you that much of the pressure Patriot feels is likely from within?

You complained about the standards bar being too low for Patriot.

It seems to me (and remember, I'm married to an ENTJ) that his own standards bar is pretty high.

Not to say that it's always healthy. Guilt and responsibility and a desire to make things right are eating him up. It's his job to learn how to balance those things. As Pep was pointing out to him, correctly so, that he ISN'T as responsible or powerful as he makes himself out to be.

Lord knows I can identify with that. I drive myself at a pretty frenetic pace. I try to take on the responsibility of the world, and do it perfectly, and the stress can be a killer. Vacations and breaks are not something that my brain really understands. This is an area in myself that still needs alot of work.

I suspect your temper tantrums on here, on a pretty regular basis, trashing his efforts and complaining about what you don't get probably add alot to his pressure.

Honestly, I completely understand his reluctance to talk to you. I'm not saying he should not talk to you about all the details. But I sure understand the reluctance. I remember Steve Harley stressing to me over and over and over that I had to be a safe place for my husband. I didn't matter if *I* thought I was a safe place, my behavior was causing a reaction in my husband that made him feel unsafe.

One of the hardest lessons I've learned over the years is to separate out what is my husband's "stuff" and what is my "stuff". IE if he is uncomfortable with me, is it because I"m doing something wrong,or is it some thing in HIS head that is the problem. Even if it is HIS head, is there some way I can adjust to make him more comfortable?

You know...something interesting happened the other day. There was a period of about a year or more after recovery, that my husband would tell me he was running to the store for 10 minutes, and not come home for over an hour or 2, I never knew where he was going or what he was doing. Every other bit of his life was exposed to me, except this one part. Some would have said he was continuing his affair, but I knew he wasn't. I knew that he was likely running from me, and from the pressure of the "stuff" between us that I could never let rest as much as I protested that I did. I figured he was at a local bar, because he always came home happy. It made me NUTS. There were times I hopped in the car and went checking the parking lots of every bar in the area. I never found him. He would never tell me where he was. Eventually our relationship changed. I got calmer, less demanding and "heavy". This lessened his need to run. Home became a place that he enjoyed and didn't feel that he had to leave to 'unplug'.

Was his behavior ok? No way, he hurt me alot when he did that.

But it was understandable, if not excusable. He had to unplug and I wasn't exactly Miss Fun and Relaxing.

He later decided that hurting me was not exactly helping our marriage, and that it made things worse between us. I had stopped obsessing every moment of the day about him and our 'stuff', and was no longer making him feel the need to run. So he stopped.

Again, NOT excusing my husband. It was a childish, selfish thing for him to do. But MY behavior played a role in the environment that lead to his choices (where have we heard that before, hmm?).

It's been, gosh, a very long time since he's done that to me. Just the other day, we were driving through a local town and we were commenting on a local restaurant/bar. Out of the blue, he says: All those times I disappeared? I was here. (lol and I was embarrestd. It was a very classy joint. In my frantic need to know what was going on, I had been searching all the low class nasty joints. Never occured to me he was sitting some place nice with a cigar and a scotch!)

There you have it. I got my answers and I got my honesty, when I had completely LET GO. Let go of him, the need to control him, the need to know, the need to control everything around me..

So Froz, the tricky part here, is to read Patriot's posts, and figure out what is caused by his own issues and what is caused by your behavior. It's not so obvious as you think.

He's got his own issues and own demons to work on. As do you.

Pepperband in no way enabled Patriot. I'm a little surprised that took such offence at her supporting your husband.

The common theme in many of your posts Froz, is "All I do is give and I am unappreciated" and "Whats in it for me" and "I'm the hurt one, he's the bad one, when do I get mine" And behind it all is an expectation and a sense of entitlement that he owes you.

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

Once you stop asking "What about ME" and turn your focus onw what should be given instead of received, you'll start getting what you need. As long as you ask "What about ME", you are actually quite closed off to Patriot.

You are missing out on a lot of good stuf from your husband my dear.

Okay, I hear you.

No more pressure from me for him to meet my needs.

I just don't get it, I guess.

This whole relationship has been about what he needs, and on his time schedule.

The A was about his needs.

Now Recovery is about his needs, too.

It's all about what I need to to for him.

I didn't take offense at Pep offering him support. I'm jealous. I'm jealous because others post things to him that I would so like to have...support, understanding, acceptance, admiration.

I also don't feel that he gives a true representation of what actually goes on here.

I don't really feel that you do, either. For all the times you say I trash his efforts and blast him, there are more times when I'm his cheerleader.

I'm not angry today. Today I am completely, totally, utterly beat down. I've been running on empty for way too long.

I give. I let go.

Froz ~ he gives HIS perception, HIS reality.

Which isn't yours.

Why is yours right and his wrong?

This is why I keep saying, Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?

You are empty and exhausted from fighting Patriot for a relationship built exactly according to your plan, the "right" plan.

I also think its too bad that you do not recognize the support, understanding, acceptance, admiration you do recieve from many on this board.

I've spent alot of time posting to you on this thread Froz. Just curious, if I am not supporting you - then exactly what do you think I'm doing here?

You are supporting me, and I appreciate the time you take to do it. I thought I'd properly conveyed that. I apologize if I have not. I didn't mean to sound ungrateful. I am grateful.

Geez, the poor guy...it's so devastating to face how you destroyed someone else. I'm sure it is.

This is where your victim mode comes pouring out. You have to give someone permission to do this to you. Why do (did) you give him that power?

I would drop that mentality post haste.

committed

I gave him that power because I opened myself up to him in order to be a vessel. I opened myself up to him because I loved him.



Thanks for the advice.

I don't know where ti interject here, but I have a few things to say.

On the topic of "unplug"...I am not very good at all about scheduling a vacation. I was on active duty, single, and making really good money so bills were well taken care of. In 2 years I didn't take one day of vacation. I never even thought to plan one. Why? Because I am a worker. Vacations were never a 'popular' thing in my family because Mom, Dad and 3 teenagers is not easy to fund on teacher(mom) and struggling self-employment(dad). One year they both got second jobs for 4 months just to have christmas. Funny, I look back on that and what a sacrifice. But I also look back on it as time I was not bothered by parenting that I didn't agree with. I just don't plan vacations because they were never important. They never happened. Being a worker, a provider, a bread winner was what I was trained to do. Managing finances is something I have learned on my own as well. Many thing I have learned since leaving home(but who doesn't). But, vacations was never something I was good at. So unplugging via a vacation has never really been an option.

Also, there are two distinct things I want to unplug from. I hope I make it clea this time, because I have not up to now. Life. When I say I want to unplug from life THAT is talking about a vacation. A getaway. Go do something for a few days that does NOT deal with life. The stressful, billpaying, hitting appointments on time life. It is this unplug that I want to do WITH froz. When I want to unplug from my relationship problems, that is like go play a computer game for the evening, or read a book, or(and really would be the greatest) do something FUN with my wife where we can enjoy each other and truly set down the problems for a short time. I think when I posted about unplugging, it was immediately taken as "get away from froz". Not at all. Sure, I like being alone to myself sometimes, but I love being with her and enjoying each other.

On the being alone for a little bit(like to play a game or do some homework or something) I am the one with the issue now. I think for the most part. Froz used to 'offer' that I could go do something without her(like get on the computer) and then when I would chose what she offered, I would find out it had been a test and now she was upset that I hadn't chosen her. That caused guilt for me. I say that, not because I want her to be admonished for it. Quite the opposite. She has recognized this behavior as not very conducive to our relationship and she has really cut it out. I, however, still feel guilty for going to do my own thing. THAT is my issue and I need to work out.

This brings up an interesting topic. She feels the way she feels because a number of my actions have told her that she is not the most important thing to me in the world. I can say all day that she is. I believe in my mind and know in my heart that she is the most important thing to me. Rarely do I do anything of substance that tells her she is. And, I suppose I would need to do alot of showing her seh is the most important thing to me after having an A that told her she was NOT the most important thing to me. Now, those last few lines are not all mine because I never once during my A thought "the reason I am doing this is because froz does not matter to me". She did matter to me. That's why I didn't want her to know, because I didn't want her to be hurt. Anyway, I need to show her more that I love her and that she is the most important person to me.

I disagree that recovery is all about me. Me would internalize this and never try to 'feel' it out or talk about it. Me would have moved on and and said screw this, which is mean and selfish I am sure, but how would that be any different than having the A? Interesting that a BS finds out a WS is having an A, and then once exposed to the light of day, the BS gets mad at the WS for continued mean and selfish behavior. I have an explanation for it. Selfishness and survival. When the WS cares only about themselves and no one else, they will try to separate themselves from the 'pain', which would be the BS telling them how much the WS is a screw up or hated or whatever. Survival mode kicks in and the WS walks away, because no one wants to hear how they are horrible. And selfishness stays in full force because the WS then does what they want, regardless of what the BS is asking for.

I am different than that. I stayed. I am trying to work through my problems. I am making progress. I am facing her pain everyday. I am facing my past actions everyday. I am taking steps to ensure my marriage is affair-proof. I participate in things I would not, nor have I ever, participated in. I do all the things I do, feel horrible for all the things I fail at, want the greatest marriage ever because my wife is the most important thing to me.

Praise for me has been an issue. I do not want it for what I just said(though I hate to presume people would praise me for saying those things) I have one mission. I want my wife to read these words and feel, yes feel, loved and important.

I am here, posting, talking, working, discussing, failing, succeeding, and all the other things I do, because you are the most important thing to me. Sure, I am learning and growing which is for me. But I am driven to do these things because I want to make my wife happy. I want her to be safe, protected and happy.

But the true goal to me is this. Recovery is about WE. And guess who reminded me of that in a discussion not 2 days ago.

Froz did. She is extremely intelligent and she is trying SO hard. In the face of her extreme pain. In the face of her destroyed self-worth. She truly is the most valuable person to me. She has faced so many demons that I placed in front of her. I know one thing she no longer says. She no longer says she is not strong. She knows she is. Anyone dealing with this crap would have to figure that out sometime.

Anyway, again, just a ramble. I want my wife to feel loved and important. That is my goal. She and I have planning to do. I have talked with her about doing some planning. We will get it done.

Lord, I can relate to "I'm jealous".

When we began recovery, Mr. Pep had tons of support via AA meetings. I was jealous of that support, jealous of the time he spent with AA getting that support, and I was also jealous of the good feelings he experienced about himself when he got support and encouragement.

The jealousy was like a nasty cancer eating away at my soul. God Froz, I was miserable with myself when I was experiencing jealousy of good things happening to someone I love. I could not admire or like myself for having that jealousy. I am so glad you managed to "name" the disease you have right now, and once you name it, you can work on getting rid of it and breathing cleaner emotional air ....

journal about all the things you are jealous of and what the toll that jealousy is taking on YOU !

I don't feel that way. It was an isolated incident - that particular jealousy - and not a pattern.

Ordinarly, I am thrilled when Patriot receives positive feedback and I love it when he feels good.

So, rather than a nasty cancer eating at my soul, we'll just call it a few cells that have quickly been removed.

gotcha

good for you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hi Patriot ~ I got what you meant by unplugged, hence my little story about my husband's method of unplugging.

I think your need to decompress is very real and should be met - not necessary by Froz, but at least with her agreement and cooperation.

Speaking of computer games ~ my husband and I play Everquest together. He gets to decompress, it means we are doing something recreational together, I find it fun to be mindless for a bit, and it means that we interact in a positive way in the evenings, instead of both sitting at separate computers doing our own thing.

Now the kids play too. All our kids friends are jealous because they have "gamer" parents.

Funny little aside, we were driving to NH on vacation, and my husband was making little game related jokes that the whole family 'got' because of our gaming, but not another NORMAL (yes, I freely admit, BRs house is a house of Geekdom) person would have gotten. We got alot of giggles out of it.

Maybe you 2 can find something that serves more than one purpose also. Find something that you both have in common.

And Patriot, I do think you are doing a courageous thing by staying and actually posting on here. My husband would never do such a thing. I think that alone is proof you love Froz.

As for making her feel loved and important ~ aaaah, well ... hun, some of that is not really in your power.

You see, Froz does not believe she is lovable and important. So she is constantly on the outlook for proof of her perception that she is not lovable. This is what Pepperband has been trying to get her to see.

You can not fill or heal this wound for her. It started far before she ever met you.

She has to heal herself, and learn to love herself before she'll ever really truely know that you love her and think she is important.

That doesn't mean you should give up and not love her. And that you should stop trying to be the best husband ever. It just means that you too have to drop the expectation that when you act with loving intention that she will recognize it.

Love her inspite of it. One day, she's going to 'get it'.

Ok Froz ~ want me to tell you what frustrates me about you?

LOL.

You are exactly the way I used to be. You argue the same way I did too. I bet you that it will get you just as much as it got me, a whole bunch of nuthin.

So, to be specific, I'll give you one of many examples I could pull from this thread:




Now.

You do this repeatedly.

You state your feelings about something. When we point out that maybe there is a flaw in your basic thinking, some emotional or spiritual defect...you immediately tell us that your feeling is just a temporary one time thing.

Your contradictions are all over this thread.

"I feel this way" "Ok Froz, good, lets talk about why this is good or bad and what you might be able to do about it" "Well I don't feel that way, this was just a fluke, a random incident".

Froz, dear. You are terrified that someone might see you for who you are.

Believe it or not, lovable people have warts and fears and stuff that isn't pretty.

I'm sorry, BrambleRose, but this time you couldn't be more wrong.

I am not terrified at all that someone might see me for who I am. For someone who is "terrified", I sure do put it all out there.

I do so because it is important to me that I be real. I do it also because unless I am real, I wouldn't receive the opportunities to grow that I am receiving. It is an opportunity.

I know I said I was jealous. I was. It was a momentary, fleeting feeling based on a totally different subject. I didn't voice the reason, not because I was trying to hold anything back about myself, but because I didn't want to put undue pressure on someone else. I actually wouldn't mind telling you at all...heck, you already know just about everything else about me! I just didn't think it would be fair to that person, that's all.

Without knowing that, I can easily see how what I said seems contradictory. It also caused some confusion in that it made it look like I wasn't grateful for your support. It wasn't about that at all. I'm sorry it looked that way.

I'll just leave it at that. It's my issue and has nothing really to do with Patriot, or with the other party. It's all mine.

Froz, have you considered the fact that maybe you're...

"ok as is?"

Froz ~ you don't really put it out there. Yes, you are gutsy to talk about this stuff in public. But your walls are high.

I'm not arguing with you about whether or not you are jealous.

I'm saying that you say one thing, when its addressed, you tell us, that no, its something else, and we don't understand.

This is your pattern.

This isn't just your pattern, its your wall. I know because I used to do it too. I played these verbal and emotional symantics with my Alanon sponsor for hours upon hours for months.

I thought I just wasn't understood.

Just like every WS on the planet, I had my own version of the fog that led me to believe I was special and my situation was different and unique and everyone else just didn't get me.

BR,

Sure, I put it all out there. You can (and have) ask me anything, and I will answer you honestly.

I don't see a pattern with this, with the exception of this incident.

I really am being completely open with you. I've pretty much let down my walls. I have zero problem sharing how I feel. Sure, feelings change. Perhaps that is where you are seeing a discrepancy.

I tried to explain this incident the best I could without causing potential harm to another person. It's probably confusing, and I hope you'll forgive me for being so darn cryptic with that incident. Sharing it with you would probably be beneficial for me, but I really don't want to do that and cause harm to someone who really is not to blame at all.

But, ask me anything else and I'll be happy to share honestly about it. I've got no walls up with you. It would serve me no purpose. I don't feel the need to protect myself from you. I don't perceive you as a threat at all.

I wish I could explain it better.

Today was a pretty rough day. I finally worked up the nerve to call my "Uncle", I guess that's what he is. I got voice mail and was too chicken to leave a message. It seemed rather impersonal to do so when I've never even met him or spoken with him. I really am so very worried about my mother and her family.

I also had a weird exchange with a friend last night, that resulted in getting my feelings hurt, and that's contributing to my feelings today.

I took it out on Patriot a bit this morning.

Also got an e-mail from OW, as promised by her about her baby. She sent a picture and everything. This is all pretty rough to deal with.

Spent a good bit of time this evening in the closet, as Pep suggested...can't seem to stop crying.

It's been a rough day. I wasn't kidding when I said I am really just beat down.

So many failings and flaws, and I'm trying my butt off and feel like I'm getting nowhere. Any small progress seems to be met with another issue. It's kind of overwhelming.

I'm trying like ******, but gosh...could one person have more issues? Where to begin?

Not sending out invites to a pity party. Not feeling so much pity, in particular. Just rock bottom. Everywhere I look, I seem to have so many character flaws.

I won't give up, though. I'll keep working.

Just don't have much to offer today.

I really do wish I could explain the other situation to you.

I don't even know what else to say.

Maybe tomorrow will be better.

Well, tqt...no. Is there something you see here that I am actually doing right? Any effort on my part that I point out is quickly met with "Froz, you are lying".

froz ~

I don't think you are lying. I think that you are resisting acknowledgement of the truth on many levels because it is painful and overwhelming.

I think that our own thoughts, our own wounded selves, become very very adept at protecting ourselves from truth, because at some point in our lives, usually in childhood, the truth was too painful, too big, too scary to cope with. The coping mechanisms we learn in childhood are quite destructive in our adult lives.

This is what I was pointing out above. Everytime someone starts to get close to a 'truth' you quickly dance away and shut down.

Now, no more contact with OW ok? You know there is no OC. There is NO reason for you to see her, talk to her, communicate with her in anyway.

No contact means: NO CONTACT for Patriot, AND YOU.

Contact with OW puts YOU back at day 1 too.


This is because you are still attempting to force/change your world around you to your own sense of what reality should be. You are quite powerful in your own mind. You are still under the belief that you can control this.

(Btw, I don't recall Pep suggesting that you hide in the closet dear. She was simply describing her own rock bottom when she finally admitted that just maybe, she couldn't fix it all and that maybe God had to take over - but I'll let her speak for herself.)

You can't. Your belief that you can causes you to keep smacking into reality and you keep coming away bruised, sore and hurt.

You are NOT flawed and failed.

STOP with the self flagellation!! This is unloving and this is very very harmful to you.

Go back to that mirror and say I love you Froz - if it works for Dorry it can work for you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Okay, enough is enough.

I am not under the belief that I can control this, any more than I am under the belief that I can control what you think or assume about me.



I have not "danced away". I carefully listen to each point you make. Some I agree with and some I do not. The fact that may I disagree with some of your points does not mean that I am in denial.

I have explored each and every point you have made. I have responded to each and every thing you have posted. I am not dancing away, nor am I shutting down. I have been here the entire time...listening, agreeing with some points, and exploring and trying to apply them. That is hardly the behavior of someone who is "dancing away".


You may very well not think that I am lying. However, that is NOT what you said.

You said:



and...





No need for Pep to defend herself. I heard what she said. I took it upon myself to view it as a suggestion and try it. I take responsibility for that. I'm perfectly aware that she didn't tell me to do that.



Really??? The focus of this entire thread has been about what I'm doing wrong and what my character flaws are. I'm willing to work on them or I wouldn't be here, but let's not deny the fact that I have some flaws and some failings.