that's correct ... I was going to say as much, but BR said it for me. Thanks.

Froz ~

That you believe lies (untruths) about yourself does not mean that you are a liar (ie telling deliberate, knowing, falsehoods).

Are you deliberately misrepresenting yourself? No.

But you can't fix what you can't or won't acknowledge.

I absolutely will not assist you in tearing yourself down as "flawed" and "failed".

Yes, we all flaws and warts and ugly bits. But that doesn't = unlovable, undeserving and unworthy, which is what you want to make it mean.

Froz ~

The only "flaw" that I see, is your unwillingness to love yourself.

Once you learn that, the rest will follow.

Here is something to focus on.

How about ways I can make my wife feel important to me. Anyone have any ideas?

I have a tendency to lead her to believe that I am more important to me than she is. Maybe I am attacking things wrong. But there is one fact. I WANT to be the source of her greatest happiness. I currently am not. What can I do?

I realize that she may have issues with other things that I deal with, like abandonment from biological mother, physically abusive ex-husband, childmolesting ex-husband and other things.

She has gotten 'The Primal Wound' and I think she aims to read it. Maybe it will help.

That said, she currently has an Ex-cheating still-husband. I am here and I want to support her in any way I can. Give me ideas how.

And, so that it has been said. Per my discussion with SH, guess what he told me. I am responsible for my actions. A simple statement that I am sure someone will say 'No Sh*t', but there is more to it than that. Affair-proofing our marriage is about awareness, acceptance and action, right?

I am aware that my top five needs are 'weaknesses' and if not guarded correctly can lead me down the path of an A again. I am AWARE that I have these needs and I am AWARE that, if not guarded by me, they can be weaknesses. (if you paid attention just then, there is a little bit of "why" in there.)

Now, I ACCEPT that it is my responsibility to only allow access to these five needs to my wife and that if I see one of those needs getting met by someone else, even in the smallest way, then that contact must halt immediately and I am required to tell my wife. I ACCEPT that I am a human being driven by selfish desires, wants and needs. I have already accepted that I am solely responsible for make the decision to have an A. That happened a while back.

So guard my needs(which protects my marriage and makes it affair-proof) and never use the lack of my needs getting filled as reason to hurt her again. It is my responsibility(because I have made it mine by choosing to love her and marry her) to try to fill her needs. Being the giver. And it is my responsibility to try filling her needs regardless of her filling mine(limiting the taker).

Now, actions. What are they. It was mentioned that I might have some High-Functioning ADD. How do you find out? What are the steps to rule that out or in? What are ways I can show my wife I think she is important? I went back to college. She is supportive but it takes away time from her and I, so she doesn't like it. It was a selfish desire for me to get the college thing going again. Does that make it an LB? I am not doing it to get away from froz. I am doing it because I want a masters degree. But she doesn't care, really if I have that degree, although she has stated she is very proud of me. How can I show her she is important?

She is a great woman and she is trying very hard. I recognize that.

I used to wonder why there weren't more couples posting here. Husbands and wives hashing it out online here. I really don't wonder now. It is difficult. It is hard to see folk "gang up" on your spouse.( I think everyone means well and that I have a perception of things because I am close to the situation and I want to protect her) It is also hard to blast your feelings out here, when you might run the risk of your spouse hearing it for the first time online in front of all you guys.... when it would be way more appropriate said in the privacy of home.

Anyway, just thoughts. One good thing I could think of was the method Froz and I devised to deal with elephants was employed by me last night. Something came up. After it came up it felt uncomfortable, and so I asked "is such and such an elephant and we need to talk about it?" I hope she saw that. Not because I want the single incedent praise, but because I am trying to evoke new patterns of behavior on my part so her perception of me changes. Because I want to make her happy and safe.

Froz. If you read this(which you will) I love you very much. No matter what happens, I am going to honor you by fulfilling my commitments to you, loving and accepting you, and protecting you from further harm. I hope you are able to trust me a little more each day. I pray that God will take some of you pain away each day until it is as gone as it can be and you can be happy.

Don't let the enemy split us apart. Marriage is of God, and therefore, the enemy will do anything in his power to break us up.

The enemy's power is suggestion. Don't listen to him.

Listen to God. He loves you and wants you to be happy.

Have a good day.

This one I want you to pay attention to, wife.

Please love yourself. Love yourself and know in your mind you are a great person. If someone rejects you, it is their loss, because no matter what they do, you are still a great person.

Please love yourself.

Perhaps 'complain' was the wrong choice of words.

Pretty soon you'll have me well-schooled in the English language. That was helpful.

Your choice of words is not the issue ... you said what you meant to say.

Direct hit! You tryin' to sink my battleship? If so, you win. I don't need you to tear me to shreds. As you so kindly put it, I do a fine job of that myself.

Patriot ~


Weaknesses?

yes. Weaknesses.

As long as I am not hungry, I will be choosy were I eat.

When I am starving, I might eat anything off of any sort of surface.

Ask a homeless person if eating out of the trash is repulsive. I bet some might say it isn't. Not like you and I would say it was.


Just an example, and not to be seen as MY reason why.

Would you rather a different word?

No, don't start with semantics!!

I don't think your needs are weaknesses.

There is nothing wrong with needs, I don't think you should assign any concept of something being bad or wrong or weak about having needs.

What you choose to do when you don't have them filled...well thats something you have to address. I suspect Gimble can help you better than I with that aspect.

Your sense of entitlement, your selfishness in making the choice to have an affair...THOSE are weaknesses.

But needs? No way. Give yourself permission to have needs. Are your needs healthy? That could be a question you need to address also.

Sheesh!

This thread moves so fast it's overwhelming! And it's not even about ME!!

Froz you said -

CSue,

SH actually did broach the subject with me. We didn't discuss it thoroughly.


Quote:
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And I'm happy to say when he finally was able to accomplish understanding my feelings regarding his affair - it was a huge turning-point for me, and helped me find real peace.


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That sounds like it would be beneficial, but I don't expect it anymore. If it happens...great. I'll be pleasantly surprised. If it doesn't, I'll just have to accept it.

By the way, I don't think I've ever told you that I appreciate your responses and the manner in which you share your experiences with me.

Sometimes I don't respond to something you've said to me, because it is usually information and food for thought, as opposed to questions. I just wanted to tell you that I listen to you, what you say is helpful, and I appreciate it.

Thank you very much.



Froz, I appreciate being thanked for all the obvious reasons; but in addition - it helps me to know if what I'm posting is helping. Sometimes I think we project ourselves onto other's situations and we're way off base! Other times we're right on target. You're the only one who knows what's on or off target.

I'll come back later when I have more time to post because I have some additional thoughts...but sometimes it's all I can do to read this thread just to keep up!! Hang in there...

Well I can't resist responding to Patriot -

ENs are not weaknesses - the affair exposed your weakness to having affairs. It's probably something SH talked to you about during the coaching session. You, my husband, and other WSs have a weakness for affairs.

SH's goal is to coach you to learn how to "affair-proof" your marriage and help you address your weakness so you don't go down that path in the future.

Everyone has weaknesses, and some of those weaknesses become addictions like, drugs, alcohol, affairs etc.

ENs are vitally important. We all have them; it's just that when we're uneducated about them that they can cause problems. Because if we don't address them, they become very powerful.

You were asking earlier what you can do to help Froz feel loved. You become an expert and meeting her top ENs, exactly the way SHE wants them met.

It's that simple, however it isn't easy. Because her job is to communicate to your what her ENs are, HOW she wants you to meet them; and give you feedback on how you're doing.

Also as you go through recovery top ENs shift in importance as they are getting met. So it's her job to communicate to you as her top ENs shift in importance.

She'll learn to do the same for you. Have you both finished SH's homework assignment regarding the EN questionnaire? If I recall correctly each of you were to write down specifically how you like your top ENs to be met.

This is a great exercise that helps you get in touch with a deeper level of self awareness - and takes some courage to be vulnerable enough to share them with each other.

You're at a fragile state of recovery - both of you; be gentle with yourselves and each other. Don't be afraid to put marriage building discussions aside at times and just have fun!

Hi, Patriot.

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How about ways I can make my wife feel important to me. Anyone have any ideas?
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By choosing to make it so. You choose, your emotions follow. Do it often enough, and you will find that you don't really have to choose anymore.

Also, needs are not weaknesses unless you choose to let them be. I choose to not do certain things, regardless of the state of my needs. It makes life so much easier when *all* my needs are met, but that is asking an awful lot out of life and my wife. I will settle for some of them met, and keep the unmet ones in check.

I recommend that you and Frozen pack the kids off for the weekend. Close all the blinds/drapes whatever, and get naked. I bet that you can't spend an entire day naked together. Give it a try. I dare both of you. You might be surprised what you learn, and it will help both of you understand something about your relationship.

All the best,
Gimble

HA! I read your "groping" thread first. I had a sneaking suspicion this was the thread where it originated!

You may find it hard to believe, but we do the naked thing pretty often. Granted, it is challenging with teenagers around (and NOWHERE to ship them off to), but we lock our bedroom suite and hang out in the buff quite often.

I agree with all your points on the other thread about sex, such as: lots of women like gropes .

I'll take my groping any way I can get it...while taking pot roast out of the oven, juvenile AND sophmoric. But I do have a rule...one good grope deserves another.

Hi, Frozen.

Quote:
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You may find it hard to believe, but we do the naked thing pretty often.
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I believe you. It's hard to stay mad when you're both naked <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

On a serious note, I really admire you and Patriot working at your marriage so hard, both publicly and privately. It took me and my wife a long time to really work at our marriage once the early challenges had settled down. We have a great relationship, and it was worth every bit of work that went into it to get it where it is today.

You and Patriot have an early start, and even though you are facing similar challenges, you are choosing to work through it now. I think that ultimately, say ten years from now, you will both look back with pride at what you have done, and see - lives NOT wasted.

God bless,
Gimble

Thanks Gimble,

Your encouraging words give us hope. It's nice to hear that there can be such a wonderful reward for hard work.


We appreciate you and your interest in our marriage. We are always grateful for your level-headed feedback. You continue to be such a steadfast blessing to us.

All our best to your and your wife,

Patriot and Frozen

Way off the Recovery topic...

I spent the ENTIRE day with my wonderful DS 15.5. That .5 is quite important, because that means that, as of today, he became eligible to obtain his driver's permit.

So we went to the testing facility. This kid of mine (mommy bragging moment) is so unbelievably intelligent. I was amazed when he walked back out to the waiting room a mere 5 minutes after walking in to take his test. Yes, it took him less than five minutes! Of course, he passed. This kid is really a genius (he really, really is...not just saying that because I'm his mom - I promise!). I'm so proud of him.

On to the tag agency, where he officially obtained his permit. We were all the way on the other side of town because it was the only testing facility open on Monday. It happened to be near Patriot's work, so we stopped by there so he could show him his permit. We also stopped by my family's business so he could show my brother and my dad.

He literally drove all over town today and he did great! We also talked quite a bit, which is such a rare thing for this kid. It's so difficult sometimes to find ways to spend time with a 15 year-old boy. With DD17 it's a snap, because there are tons of girlie things we can do together. It's not so easy with a boy his age. He's into games, but his intelligence far surpassed mine some time ago and I am no longer able to play the kinds of games he now plays.

He was such a great driver! He really did do an excellent job and it only took me a couple of minutes to really relax with him in the driver's seat.

The very best part was when we arrived home and he pulled into the garage. When we got out of the car, he said to me "So on a scale of 1-10, what would you give me?".

My heart actually leaped!!!! This kid cares what I think! He values my opinion! He wants me to be proud of him! I really had forgotten that. Teenagers do such an effective job sometimes of convincing you that your opinion doesn't really matter (because they are soooooo independent, and don't really need you except for money or food).

I gave him a 9, and I truly meant it. The one point deduction was based solely on lack of experience.

I have the greatest children!

Wow, Recovery is hard!

I failed my husband miserably yesterday.

I received a phone call from Patriot's sister yesterday, letting me know that his Grandfather had passed away.

I had absolutely no idea what to do. I've never been in that position before. I tried to guess what I would want, but then he isn't me and the truth was I didn't know what I would want, anyway.

So, I took it to NCWalker. Thank God for NCWalker. He saved my sanity twice yesterday.

He advised me to immediately go to Patriot's place of work and tell him in person and to be a rock for Patriot, even if he responded with anger. So I did.

He didn't respond with anger, just shock. Patriot left work and tended to family matters all day. I accompanied him on some of these errands, but I had work appointments scheduled for the afternoon. He told me to keep my appointments, but I wish I would not have listened to him. I really regret that.

He, along with some family members had to inform his Grandmother of his Grandfather's passing and even though Patriot had other family members present, I should have been there beside him. I know that must have been difficult and I would have wanted him there with me.

The day was extremely long and I was busy at work. It was an emotionally draining day for me, too, though I know it was much more so for him. I worried about him all day long.
After the time he spent with his Grandmother and some of his other family members, he then had to come change a flat tire for me at work...of all the luck.

I was dying for the day to be over and for both of us to be able to come home and unplug. Instead, I arrived home, changed clothes and Patriot informed me we were leaving to go back to visit his Grandmother. I thought the day was over and I really wasn't feeling too strong at this point. Instead of mustering the strength he needed, I was grouchy that he hadn't informed me of this prior to arriving home. I told him I was willing to go and changed back into appropriate clothes and prepared to leave, but I was grouchy and distant. I felt like I didn't have anything left to give him.

We began discussing it in the car and it was just making things worse, even turning into a bit of an argument as we arrived at his Grandmother's. Just before I got out of the car, I received a phone call from NCWalker...talk about perfect timing.

He "screwed my head on straight", as he put it. What he really did was lend me just the amount of strength I needed to go in and be supportive for Patriot and deal with the situation.

I feel horrible that I wasted an opportunity to be strong for him. I can't even honestly say that, if put in the same situation again, I would be able to respond differently.

Recovery is hard all by itself without difficult life situations to deal with.

I am struggling with a strong sense of entitlement and have been very distant with him lately. For as strong as everyone seems to think I am (including myself on occassion), I just don't feel like I have the strength to put much more into this. This selfish streak feels uncomfortable and I hate it. Distancing myself from him does feel comfortable and I hate that, too.

I am very disappointed in myself that I was unable to set that down yesterday. I did it for most of the day, but I stumbled grandly at the end.

I know I can't make up for yesterday, but what can I do for the next few days to be supportive for him, even when I feel like I got nothin'?