and btw....its cold, rainey, humid and miserable here in switzerland.

But I just came back from a lovely Italian restaurant, after a 3 hour dinner, lingering over wine, veal, pasta and cream puffs and espressos...

My hotel over looks a lovely park.

So....if three people came up to you on the street and told you the sky was GREEN - but you looked at the sky and saw BLUE...would you decide that YOU were wrong?

I'm working on it.


That doesn't sound so miserable. In fact, in sounds heavenly.

I would if I never knew what blue looked like.

rough night. I am being punished right now. I screwed up. And as is customary, I am being punished.

I received an email a few days ago from a girl I dated around 5 years ago. The relationship was around 6 months... maybe. The email was sent to my yahoo account... my junk email account. I did absolutely nothing to get the email. No contacting her. Nothing. What was sent to me was a forward of a forward of a forward(you get the idea) of some email saying 'God bless the troops' or some crap like that. Nothing in the email addressed specifically to me. No talking to me directly. Only a forwarded forward. I did open it because I wondered what the ****** this girl was emailing me for(we did not break on the greatest terms). I see the crap and so I close it. I assessed at the time that it was meaningless, I had done nothing wrong and that was that. Wrong. I did not inform frozen of it immediately and when she found it, which I fully expected her to because I don't hide any emails now, she was hit by the 'why didn't he tell me about this' bug. She has also plainly stated that she is uncomfortable on all counts when I am dealing with a female and that I am to inform her immediately so she knows and is not blindsided. I have agreed. I want to hide nothing. I have nothing to hide. Well, she saw the email, felt blindsided because I didn't tell her about it, and now she is pissed.

Also, if having to deal with that wasn't bad enough(which to be selfish, it was... but the fact is... she asked me to do something, I agreed and then I didn't do what I agreed to... so of course I understand he having the [censored] over it. Geez.. I am pissed at me for not keeping closer watch on all my actions... and I actually like me....oh well)... anyway.. I scheduled a lunch with a former boss turned friend from a previous job and upon showing up to meet, he had invited another previous work collegue (the 3 of us worked on a project for the INS along with a 4th that NO ONE likes) and I didn't know she would be there. Come to find out, in an email this morning my friend had CCed her on the email and I didn't see it... so I didn't know. Also, he used language that implied some special place for meeting for lunch..."our place". And when I worked with this female, she was always flirtatious with everyone. So add this all up, and frozen is pissed again.

I ate lunch. The 3 of us talked about work and life. I got back to work and the first thing I did was email frozen about the surprise lunch guest and that I was not aware, thinking I was doing the right thing. No. The fact this female was CCed on the email makes it hard to believe I did not know she would be there. The fact that I did not inform about the email from the ex-GF also hurts my case. Both instances project that I am not interested enough in protecting my wife.

The way I feel right now, I would rather just not ever have anyone contact me again. Never email me. Never call me. Never talk to me. It is just safer that way.

I agreed to the stipulations that I am in trouble for now. SO I am wrong. plain and simple. Not the first time something like this has happened.

Which brings me to another thought. One of the biggest reasons I don't post much on this thread is because if I talk about my feelings, thoughts or actions it ends up being "me talking about me or being selfish" and 'not thinking about froz'. The fact is, I have nothing to hide. I want nothing to hide. I trust that I will not be a WS again. I know she does not have the same level of trust in me that I do. That is an error. Stop trusting myself so much and using that as reason to rationalize my actions.

I have no idea if any of this makes sense. I want to open up to froz. I do, often, and talk to her about things I normally would not or would just blow off in past times. Oh well. I deserve no praise. I put myself here. I telegraphed to frozen that she is worthless by having an A. She believes it.

Any talk of my feelings seems to be me being selfish. What about her protection? What about her hurt? What about her pain? Talk of how I feel doesn't seem to be a good idea because it is always about how I feel. i.e., selfish. And selfish behavior is a component that lead to my A. I mean who has an A if they are considering their spouse(or fiance at the time) That is a mistake too. Specifing that she and I were not married during my A also is wrong(although not cheating during marriage seems like a positive and I would like to hold on to ANY positive I might have) because it projects that cheating while not being married might be less painful than cheating while married. I don't think like that.. but what does it matter.

I get rediculed for talking of my feelings and being selfish. I get rediculed for not talking about my feelings and continuing behavior that 'made my A possible'. And I just sit here like half-a-man an take the insults, redicule and snide remarks.

You know what. If I was her, I would be pissed to. If she cheated on me I would be livid. I would probably be like Bob and talk about beating the OM to death. ******, I might even do it. I am finding it harder and harder to not destroy something around the house these days.. and I feel like I have all this coming. No telling what I would do if I was the victim here.

Just yesterday was great. We talked. We stated we felt close(a real feat in our house right now) and we really loved each other... the verb. And in 24 hours, I am sitting at my computer wanting to scream, but afraid to do it. Seeing all the pros and cons of any action I take and not seeing any great decisions. Everything is a less or two evils choice. I either talk about my feelings be completely open about everything and take all the redicule that comes with that. Or I be closed up, and hide... and be rediculed for that.

What is happening is I am learning to be more open(I am not lying about anything these days... whoopty do.. I know) and still making a error here and there and not disclosing everything(like the email that I did not solicit from a girl I no longer like and haven't for a long time) and I am trying to learn better ways to meet her needs.

This whole post probably reads like a festering wimpy [censored] trying to get some feelings out and I really don't care. I have, for so long, not talked about how I truly felt that it is so natural to just swallow my feelings and move on. I have learned over the last 11 months that I really don't know how to communicate my thoughts very well in verbal or written form.

I have changed behaviors. I have established boundaries in my life that I did not used to have. I have applied principles learned here and even tried to help others. Oh yeah... that makes it uncomfortable to post here as well. This perception to some folk that I am some conflict causing trouble maker. That sucks. Kind of hard to use this forum as a release for feelings when ther eare people that judge you or people that you judge. Like I don't want them reading my weak thoughts and I don't want to show people what an absolute failure I feel like. Or how much dignity I don't have because my wife can simply say one sentence and I am a worthless peice of crap. Great one, that... because the person who gave her the power to shred me was me. Being the low-life that I was has full empowered her to resent me, be angry with me, and think that from an email I didn't ask for and from a lunch guest I didn't invite, I am falling back into old patterns.

I gave everyone the power to scrutinize my actions to the point of destruction. I made horrible choices and though I really though I was sly at the time, wow have I royally effed up. My mother would be so proud. pfft.

Again, about me and just being selfish. Fact is, I have a wife in the other room that I placed in ******, told by my actions that she wasn't worth a crap to me, and exposed her to the pain(not even a good enough word for it) of OW, possible OC, STDs, emotional trauma that she will never forget, mind-movies that will never go away, and expectations she thinks she will never attain.

What a guy I am. What a pity party I have thrown. Wow... what do I do?

God I love her. She is everything to me. Why can't I show her that? How could I be so ill-equipped to be a grown-up when I have been on my own and independent for so long?

I don't even know where to stop this post....

I am not even going to re-read this post to make sure I didn't say anything too bad...or whatever. I will just defend anything not agreed with with 'I don't know', because I truly don't know.

this is sad.

Patriot ~ I think you harm yourself by not posting here. I think you ought to start your own separate thread, I think some of the male FWSes can help you through some of what you are going through.

Perhaps the 2 of you can come to agreement that there will be no reprisals for writing about feelings on MB?

Frozen ~ reprisals are a method of control, motivated by fear. Patriot does need to feel safe. Yes, I know, he needs to make you feel safe too ~ and he's made a couple of mistakes. But that does not lessen your obligation to him. I have to say reading Patriot's post above made me cringe. Why?

Because I heard my husband's voice and saw my own behavior towards him.

No one lovebusted their way into safety and recovery.

Now, I'm late to work. Today the sun is out in Swizterland!!

Yesterday was a good talk. We were feeling close and it was so nice, for a change. He talked about his feelings. I noticed that every time he did, he seemed to worry that he was being selfish by doing so. I told him that I can understand why he is hestitant to do so, because in the past I have invalidated his feelings by telling him that he was selfish for even thinking about HIS feelings. I know now that was wrong. Even though I am no longer participating in that behavior, I made the comment last night that I don't even have to do it for him anymore. I have him trained to do it for me!

As I said to him last night - he has a right to have feelings, good or bad, and having feelings doesn't make him selfish. Tonight I did not tell him he didn't have the right to have feelings and that having them doesn't make him selfish.

What I told him tonight was that I feel unprotected. I am so tired of these situations coming up at all. I am angry. He always seems to have the defense, "well, I didn't know". Why didn't he know? We have had this conversation many times before. I do not like the fact that a situation presents itself and he makes what he calls a "risk assessment". He determines that it's not a big deal, and I shouldn't be informed. He decides FOR me.

The e-mail from an old girlfriend is something he couldn't control. However, it would have felt much less threatening if I had heard it from him. Instead, I check his e-mail and find it myself. It doesn't feel like no big deal when I consistently have to stumble across these things myself, rather than being informed by him - protection from being blindsided by having to discover it on my own.

There was no reprisal from me for sharing his feelings. I am angry, however, that this is a situation that comes up over and over again.



I am so sick of his safety taking priority over mine. We basically have an entire thread here - all filled with comments about things I am doing wrong. I take responsibility for those things.

Yet, Patriot posts something (about him) and it's not about HIM, it's more of what I am doing wrong. It's "oh well, Patriot, you made a couple of mistakes".

It's "Froz, you must take responsibility for your feelings and actions...oh and by the way, be sure to take responsibility for Patriot's feelings and actions, too."



No one withheld information or lied their way into safety and recovery, either.

Why am I responsible for both our feelings? Why is it always "poor Patriot", even when the mistake lies with him?
I took the heat for my actions and focused on my behavior. Why do you not hold him to that same standard? Why is it always about me and what I am doing wrong?

Froz ~ honestly? Because I am talking to you, not to Patriot. My focus is to help you be the best wife you can be. I can not help Patriot be a better husband ~ he needs to help from somewhere else.

And because, truely, I think that Patriot is not the biggest threat to the success of your marriage. You are.

You are not being asked to take responsibility for Patriot's feelings. You are being asked to take responsibility for YOUR behaviors that are not protecting of Patriot.

You are still in a "win-lose" approach to safety and needs. I very much feel that you need him to lose in order to feel that the playing field has been leveled.

you guys really really really need to talk to Steve Harley. The point in recovery is for both of you to win, and no one to be 'first'. My problem is that "first" is being defined, decided and chosen by you. And this is supremely against the POJA.

Patriot's perception is that he is not "allowed" by you, to discuss his feelings without reprisal for being selfish, or for feelings that hurt you.

As long as this continues, there will continue to be wall between you, preventing intimacy and emotional closeness.

You need to address this. This is your responsibility. It is not your responsibility to change his feelings, it is your responsibility to look at your actions, and figure out what you are doing that is lovebusting him and stop it.

Patriot is learning new habits, and I see his growth, just as we have seen some in you. Sometimes he makes mistakes. I don't read anywhere by either of you, that Patriot was even remotely motivated by a desire to deceive you or betray you.

That I call a mistake. He made a judgement call about what was important to communicate with you, and it was the wrong decision.

Hiding things from you is not a mistake. He didn't do that.

Really??? Interesting...

And speaking of Steve Harley...what is it possibly going to accomplish to talk to him if we don't do what he says?

He told both of us that I was not allowed to heal properly. He failed to mention to me what was the proper way. I stated as much after our session with him in a post.

As it turns out, he DID tell Patriot some thing he could do to help me heal properly. He neglected to tell me that. He also neglected to actually do it.

Win or lose? From where I sit, losing is inevitable for me in this M. Healing IN this M seems an impossibility, unless I depend on me to protect myself, meet my own needs, heal myself and the M, busy myself with meeting his needs and making sure he is safe, and try my best to avoid LB'ing while doing all of the above things.

If I need to take the blame for the failure of Recovery, so be it. I can do that and half of the above tasks all on my own.



That wall is built of much more than Patriot not being "allowed" to discuss his feelings with me.



He does it every day.

The A wasn't motivated by a desire to deceive or betray me either. It was about him and what he needed or wanted...still pretty painful.

That is not true. I did mention what Dr. Harley told me on the phone. He said explain the why, validate it(get you to accept it) and make a plan. The plan was to be made by both you and I in terms of how we could protect our marriage and meet each others needs.

"The A wasn't motivated by a desire to deceive or betray me either."

this line sucks because it is a small taste of me dealing with "no matter what I do positive, it can be framed and erased by my past"

And I do not hide things from you everyday. That is certainly an indictment you have no proof of. everyday? Like I am just living a secret life right now? Secret lives have A's right? Where is the plan A? Plan B? Anything. My point is you are pissed and your all or nothing approach to facts/answers does not become any more valid when you are pissy. Most things in life are just not black and white. There is always more to the story.

Your feedback on my progress is vastly different in 48 hours. Not two days ago, I was doing a fine job, we were close and you felt great about things. Now that anger has taken over, you are saying things that imply I am living a secret life again and telling me you want nothing to do with recovery.

meh... I shouldn't be responding directly to my wife I guess... like carring a fight out on the internet. What a bunch of childish behavior I have going right now. Sorry for that.

Anger and resentment. What a healthy diet to sustain a marriage on.

We don't have to carry out a fight on the internet. I do not wish to fight. I'm not angry even angry right now.

You did misunderstand some things I said, though. I will clarify them.



That isn't at all what I meant. What I was trying to say was that you have the ability to hurt me, regardless of the fact that your actions may not be motivated by a desire to do so. I am not trying to erase anything positive you have done. If that statement still reads that way even after my explanation, then I apologize. That is not at all what I think.


Yes...you did tell me the above. You also posted it. You didn't say that doing that was an action towards my healing. I even said in a post after our conversation with Dr. Harley, and after you shared the above with me about your conversation with him, that Dr. Harley told me I did not heal properly, and that he didn't tell me HOW to do that. So, obviously, I didn't get that that's what would help accomplish proper healing for me.



Most things in life do not seem to be black and white. That is true. So then why do you jump to the conclusion that I am implying you have a secret life right now? I think your past is secret. That is what I was saying is being hidden from me.



I didn't mean to take away any progress you have made. It is just frustrating to continue to have to jump over hurdles that I thought had already been cleared. I am also sorry for my behavior last night. I'm sorry that my actions made you feel punished. I really needed some space after I initially told you my feelings about the two events yesterday. I shared my feelings about them. I asked for space because my emotions and anger were taking over, and because the conversation was no longer becoming productive.

I am not sure why you stayed in the room, regardless of my request. That does not excuse my behavior or some of the hateful things I said. I should have just told you I needed some space and then left the room myself, rather than lead the conversation down the ugly path it took.

Again, I apologize that I allowed my anger to control my actions.


I am really hoping that anger and resentment are not the only elements of our marriage "diet".

I stayed in the room because the strongest love language we have is physical touch...and though I was not touching you, co-location became a proxy for touch.

It was stupid. I should have left when you told me too.

yet again, another instance of me not listening to what you want and deciding for you what I needed to do.

....idiot.

Are you calling me an idiot?

If so, please don't.

If you are calling my husband an idiot, please don't do that, either.

I wasn't calling you an idiot.

Patriot just left for the weekend for a business trip.

I feel sad and lonely and worried and anxious, and scared and worried, and lonely, too.

Even when he is here, the distance between us feels so great. Now it feels just enormous and I'm worried that his absence will make things worse.

I hate to be one of those whiners they are talking about over on that other thread, but I sure do feel sad.

Hi Froz ~

I'm finally back in the US ~ Everytime I come back from Europe, as I walk through Customs, I just feel such a sense of joy at being HOME. I am so glad to be an American. This was my 4th trip this year, and landing on American soil still makes me giddy! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Anyway.

I want to back up a wee bit and talk to you about a couple of things.


Well I think that you have some interesting interpretations of what Steve Harley said. One session is NOT enough, you need to keep going back and asking him for clarification. When you start getting off the right path, he can guide you back. What is clear to me is that both of you do not get what POJA is. You need to keep talking to Steve until you have figured that part out.


Yes....I agree you haven't healed, and its a major impediment to your recovery. Not allowed though? I went back to read what you originally posted about your session with Steve.

This is why I think you need to get back on the phone with him ASAP.

I suspect, but you should clarify, that "You haven't healed" is probably what he said, as opposed to "You weren't allowed to heal" with the implication that somehow Patriot is at fault.


Yes you did, thats obvious to all of us MB board members too. This is why you need to go back and talk to SH again.

But I can tell you, and so can many other women on this board, that healing is something you have to do for yourself. Ask any woman on this board who never reconciled with the WS, and yet, has gone on to become happy, healthy and whole. Marital recovery is what you both do. Personal recovery is what YOU do and doesn't require the other person to be involved. Personal recovery is a prerequisite for marital recovery.


If SH had wanted you to know/hear everything he says to Patriot, he'd not have private conversations.

As for 'neglecting' to do it.

I beg to differ.

Both of you are learning. Both of you are trying adjust to each other.

SH's role is to help you both fine tune your actions.

If Patriot's interpretation of SH's instructions are not hitting the mark, then you need to be talking to SH so he can help Patriot tweak things.

But you sitting around sulking because you have an idea in your mind of what Patriot should do, and feeling that he ignored SH because YOUR preconceptions aren't being fulfilled is really destructive to recovery.


As long as you define winning the way you have defined it, you are right. As long as you constantly approach your recovery as a competition, as long as your needs include Patriot's loss, then yes, you are correct.


I don't even know where to start with untwisting this statement.

You can heal in this marriage. You need to redefine alot of your expectations and learn some new behaviors.

You expect (and demand) Patriot to heal you, and that is just so unrealistic. Especially because as I have repeatedly pointed out, a lot of your hurts, alot of the wounds you have, were there before Patriot.

Many of the filters through which you see yourself, your marriage, your recovery and your husband, are warped, false filters of fear, pain and hurt that started so long ago.

This is why I asked you to explore the beginnings of the filters, the "truths" through which you define and experience the world.

By acknowleding that some of these "truths" no longer work for you, you will learn and grow, and heal. It is completely impossible for Patriot to do ANY of that work for you.

I watch your anger and resentment grow, because of what you perceive is his neglect of your needs...and it breaks my heart. Much of your pain and anger truely is self-inflicted. You treat yourself far worse than you imagine Patriot does.


This is a good statement.

What about this is making you sad, worried, scared and anxious?

The short answer of course, is "Fear".

So talk about your fears Froz. Fears need to be hauled out into sunlight, where they wither away, pathetic and small.


And maybe, instead of allowing your fear to dictate your attitude...you could choose to turn his absence into an opporunity to do some housekeeping on you!!


I don't think you are a whiner.

I think you are a slow learner.

So was I - and that's really OK.

Hmmm...this worry sounds terribly familiar in your life. How did it help you the first time? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

committed

Glad you made it home safely!

Also very grateful that you responded, because I feel SO DARN LOST!!!!



I thought we had that one figured out. It seemed pretty basic. Where do you see this?


You're right. It does read that way. I've thought about why I worded it that way and you're right...it's no accident that I did. I do have some major resentment based on the perception that Patriot's actions throughout Recovery have been to primarily protect himself first, then maybe me.



I understand. Sometimes it seems like it would be so much easier to achieve some sort of recovery on a personal level if I didn't have the worry of marital recovery to deal with.

I am so frustrated with the sense that I feel like if I share anything negative, or talk about any problems, or do anything other than pretend like everything is okay, then I am causing Patriot major grief, frustration, anxiety, or unhappiness. I feel very pressured to be "normal".



Maybe I am perceiving this wrong, but SH told Patriot to do some things, share some stuff about the "why's" and he has yet to do it.



I am so frustrated! I must look like the most ungrateful, whiny, lazy BS on this forum. The truth is that I WANT very badly to heal. I want to have that great, better than ever marriage. I want Patriot to be happy. I want to be happy, too. I am trying so hard, yet sometimes I just don't know any other way to BE! I'm listening. I'm learning (maybe), I'm trying to apply the things people suggest.

Everything I try feels so futile! I'm sure Patriot probably feels the same way.

One thing that I find so frustrating is trying to figure out how to share with him if I am upset about something, or something that makes me unhappy. I try not saying anything about it at all and just owning my feelings without blaming him, but no matter what I say or how I say it, he feels like a failure anyway. I try wording what I say very carefully, but he is still so frustrated that I am upset at all that he gets defensive or mad at me or mad at himself. I've tried a few other tactics, too, but they all seem to have the same result - distance.



I don't know another way to approach it! It sure seems as though, in order for both of us to have our needs met, someone is going to have to do something they don't want to do or give up something they want, or act in a way that is completely unnatural for them. It does make it feel as though one of us has to lose if anyone is to win. I don't know how we can both win!



This hurts so much!!! I don't know how to totally change my thinking! I am also so scared that I can't do it - really scared and very, very sad.

My mother has told me this my whole life. I have heard it from others, too. I am so afraid to acknowledge it and it makes me sad because it has always been a big fear - that my mother was right - something REALLY IS WRONG WITH ME! I feel doomed because I don't know how to fix it.



It breaks my heart, too. Hmmmm...someone breaking their OWN heart - what a pathetic scenario. I feel like the most screwed up person on the planet.



I'm afraid that I really am the most screwed up person on the planet.

I'm afraid that I am inadequate and unable to fix it. I'm afraid that I can't do it. It sounds so impossible to just completely change the way I have perceived everything my entire life.

I'm afraid that Patriot and I are just incompatible.

I'm afraid that he won't have the patience to wait the lifetime it will probably take for me to fix this, if I even can.

I'm afraid that he is lying to me. I'm afraid that he will say things that are untrue or embellish them just to make me happy.

I'm afraid to act normal because when things start to feel normal it feels like before - during the A - when I really did act happy and it looks so much like before that I'm afraid I will be blind again to the truth and be blindsided or never know what's really going on at all. I was so completely fooled.

I'm afraid of being hurt again.

I'm afraid I don't have what it takes to do this - Recovery (personal or marital, especially marital).



Thanks for saying that. I feel like everyone probably thinks I'm a whiner, or one of those "unhelpable" people who just thrives on crisis or loves to live in the pain.

I DON'T!!!!! I am so dying to get out of this stuck place. I just don't know any other way to be.

I have a potential situation on the horizon that I don't know how to deal with.

Last night I talked to Patriot on the phone (he's still out of town). He had the opportunity to go to dinner with some co-workers, one of them being young, giggly, and female. He called to ask "permission" (which is irritating). So he worded it differently and asked if I was comfortable with it. I told him that I honestly WAS NOT comfortable with it - for a variety of reasons, but that I hate feeling like I am keeping him in a cage.

He said the most wonderful thing. He said that he wouldn't feel he was sacrificing anything if he stayed behind and talked to me on the phone instead. He said that he doesn't feel like he's in a cage, but that he doesn't mind missing out on certain things right now until we grow along in Recovery.

That felt nice. It felt like he understood and was willing to be patient. It also made me feel very important to him.

Today he called. I asked him what he was doing for lunch today. Apparently, he had already had lunch. He seemed to be avoiding the topic of who he had lunch with. He had lunch with the very same co-workers (including the female) that he opted not to dine with last night in order to protect me.

I don't understand this. I am wondering why he even bothered to "protect" me last night if he was just going to eat with them today. What was the point???

I was at work when he told me this and I was unable to talk, which is probably a good thing. He knew I was upset, though, because I was quiet - mostly due to a lack of knowing how to appropriately express my feelings to him without punishing him. I told him I would call him back when I had a break.

I've tried to call him a couple of times, but he doesn't answer now, which worries me.

I also still haven't come up with a way to constructively respond. I have no idea what to say.