I'm not sure what you mean.

Everywhere. Your "first/last", "win/lose" approach to meeting ENs is a huge clue!


This is because you are still feeling sorry for yourself (victimhood), and using alot of disrespectful judgements.

I decided for me, that a good rule was ~ especially at first ~ was that if he didn't directly tell me that he thought it, then I could not assume it.


Aaaah, yes, if you weren't married, you could rewrite Patriot to suit your way of personally coping, without that nasty Real Patriot getting in the way and intruding on your little fantasy!

My dear, personal recovery has to be your priority. This doesn't mean that your marital recovery can't ALSO take place or that the two contradict or conflict with each other. But you certainly can't have marital recovery at personal recovery's expense.

In my opinion, and thats all it is, is opinion...is that you are spinning your wheels trying to achieve marital recovery. Why?

Well...I think you arent personally recovered enough to participate in marital recovery. (Just like SH said already).

I think you are using marital recovery to distract you from personal recovery. If you keep busy trying to control Patriot, you don't have to look too closely in the mirror, because THAT is difficult and painfully too close to YOU.

The result is you are trying to FORCE your will on your marriage and Patriot, and are growing increasingly angry and frustrated.



You feel, ie assume ....

Has Patriot said he feels these things?

If this is the case...its time to POJA.

I truely think you need Steve Harley to help you negotiate communication. If you can't communicate, you have no marriage. This is too important to just make assumptions and lovebust over.


Ok. I seem to recall that Patriot has said he is willing to talk about whys...but you have decided that you don't want to know.

You do NOT get to resent him for not volunteering what you have explicitly said you do not want to deal with.

Again, this goes back to needing a POJA about communication. When, how and what are you going to discuss? You both need to agree and then act. You are going to need Steve to hammer this out the first time. Thats the point of Steve, you havent learned how to do it without lovebusting each other. So you make your demands to Steve and let him guide you in a manner that protects BOTH of you.


Because you are still trying to be in charge. Because you are in a competition, and you have not surrendered your will.


Ok. Well, I can tell you that eventually, I learned to stop trying to control the outcome, and to stop expecting a specific response to what I share with my husband.

If I am honest, do not use DJs or angry outbursts...and I am not picking a really bad moment to do it in...then how he feels about it is NOT my responsibility.

For example. My husband hates that I believe he has problem with alcohol. He does not want to hear that I worry about his health, that I fear his early death, that I think it damages his ability to be emotionally plugged in to me and the kids.

But I tell him. Do I harangue him and spend alot of time in his face about it? No. Most of the time, I let it be, but I also do not avoid communicating about it either. He doesn't like it. My responsiblity to him is to be honest about what I think and feel and to tell him what hurts me. What he chooses to do about it is his responsibility. I let go of the expectation of a specific outcome (ie that he will say OH, you are brillliant BR, let me join AA tonight!). Since I don't expect a specific outcome, there is nothing to be angry about later.



You do it with a POJA.


If either of you do something you don't want to do, or give up what you want....you are NOT following POJA.


With a POJA. CALL STEVE.

Have I made my point yet? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


You make a decision.


This is where your truths about what you believe about yourself are lacking, and holding you back.

This is what you MUST address Froz, before you can be happy and whole with a partner.


I know this is a real fear on your part. But I have to snicker. I think you and I would probably get along pretty well in real life. Too bad your salon isn't around the corner, I'd probably come in all the time and spend way too much on wild red hair color! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I think you are perfectly normal and pretty cool.

One think you'll learn as you learn to take down your walls and really emotinally plug into people is that we ALL have these nasty ugly fears and secrets. Some of us have just learned to turn on the lights more often, and let the daylight of reality guide our judgements, rather than be ruled by those things that go bump in night.

It's a choice.

Just because your mother said it doesn't make it true. Can we admit that she is probably a hurt, broken person herself, who spoke from her OWN hurts and fears?



Now that deserves a cyber spankin. #1 rule. Do NOT run yourself down. Thinking you are the most screwed up person on the planet is pretty darn self-centered.

You are worse than...Hitler? Stalin? Jeffery Dahlmer? How about the child abusers, the pedophiles, the murderers....wife beaters, robbers, car jackers, .... on and on and on....

Please.


Well you are right. You can't fix it all.

However, God ~ the God of your understanding ~ can.

The only thing you have to do is be willing to let Him.

Now, isn't that easier? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Oh bollocks. Of course you aren't compatible right now. You are both in a powerstruggle and lovebusting each other all over your marriage. But that doesn't mean you can't be compatible. You wouldn't have been attracted to each other and gotten married without some sort of spark there somewhere! That spark can become a flame.

Compatibility is built. Soul mates are created.

How?

POJA!!!!!


I...I...I...

Your key to recovery is to stop saying I.

You just aren't that powerful.


When I learned to believe in ME (personal recovery), my happiness no longer depended on believing in my husband (marital recovery).

When I was able to let go and trust that IF the worst came true (that he was lying) that I would be OK, and go on to be happy joyous and free with or without him....then things fell into place. My fear no longer dictated my trust.


I like what Dr Phil says about if in your relationship, you only deal with problems, that you will have a problem relationship.

You MUST have normal happy times in order to heal. You need to practice normal and happy!

I get your fear, but what you need to tell your fear is: What is different between then and now?

Then, you did not have the protections that you have now. You were NOT fully aware of Patriot's weaknesses. You did NOT put protections in place that you have now.


So am I.

What I had to learn was that I can not control other people and that sometimes other people WILL choose to hurt me. And that I am perfectly capable of taking care of myself regardless.

But if I allow my fear to isolate me from people, I will miss SO many neat wonderful beautiful people and life experiences.

For a perfect example: Last week when I was in Switzerland, I was invited to a party by a business colleague that I used to work with. Now I only knew this person through work, not socially, so this was a little, ok, alot scary for me.

I managed to navigate the town tram system to find the restaurant, managed to communicate well enough at a florist shop for a armload of flowers as a gift...and then stepped into the party. OH DEAR. It was PACKED, barely breathing room only, and I didn't know ANYONE. I don't speak German either!

I stood there, being pummeled by the crowd, almost panicked, looking for SOMEONE or something I knew. I felt stupid, completely foolish, standing there by myself in a packed hot restaurant of complete strangers speaking a foreign language. All these beautifully, impeccabily dressed, confident strangers, all who knew each other and belonged. My fear immediately reminded me that I did NOT deserve to associate with such perfect people.

My fear was screaming at me - GET OUT NOW. You are too stupid, pathetic, you are too fat, you are dressed too plainly, no one wants to know you, there are so many people here no one will care if you are here or not, you were invited out of pity, the party hostess won't even notice you didn't show up....

My mind was gibbering in fear.

I took a deep breath and said back to my fear: SHUT UP. I would not have been invited if she and her husband didn't want me to come.

Ignoring the fear, I shoved my way through the crowd to find the restuarant owner (my friend's husband) and gave him the flowers. His face was genuinely pleased to see me (holy moley he even remembered who I was!).

Next thing I knew....I heard a voice behind me say (in English!): BR!! OMG, what are YOU doing here? We didn't know you were in the country! And I turned to find a friendly familiar face, someone I knew, and next thing I knew, I was standing in a group of people who all knew me, someone was retrieving a glass of wine for me, and all were thrilled that I had arrived.

I had such a lovely evening. For the first time, I heard someone play a "weena", its an old Indian instrument, and I loved it. I had some very hot, very delicious Indian food, had lovely conversations, and met some wonderful people. I had my picture taken with complete strangers and introduced myself afterwards.

It was a lovely, wonderful evening. Had I listened to my fear, I would have missed that wonderful experience.

My intuitions, guided and riddled by fear, would have ensured that I had a normal boring isolated evening in my hotel room.

As you can tell, I still have voices and fears that tell me that I am "not good enough". I just learned to have enough self love and self respect to talk back to the fear and shut it down.

Its a choice.


The only thing you have to have is the willingness to turn over control of recovery to a Higher Power (God as you understand Him).


THAT was POJA.

Good job for both of you.

You both won.


Ok.

This is where you guys need to really sit down and communicate.

I suspect that Patriot is probably under quite a bit of pressure to do group stuff with coworkers.

I know that its pretty easy to bow out of dinners with coworkers. Lunch is much harder.

You guys should be talking about this. You both need to come up with a solution that doesn't leave him in an awkward position at work, but leaves you feeling safe. The reality of the work place is that he is going to constantly be in group situations that include women. Long term, he can't just avoid all groups with women. You both need to get creative here.

You both need to win here, and I think why this keeps coming up is because you don't have a plan right now that involves a win for him too. Thats why you keep feeling like a jailer, because right now, its a win for you at his expense.

I strongly recommend you hammer this out with Steve's help.

If I remember correctly, you were concerned about this BEFORE you married him...and it was a factor IN marrying him.

You were afraid that the distance (his going overseas) would make the healing from his affair impossible...and that you would drift apart. You acted on that fear and married him when you were NOT healed from his affair. It did not help your situation to go ahead and marry him...nor has it made dealing with the affair any easier.

So...you are now reacting with worry of his absence yet again. It didn't bode well earlier...it isn't going to bode well now. Your fears and your worries prompt you to do things without thought. Don't let that happen.

committed

Due in part to things you have said, and a difficult but necessary and productive conversation I had with Patriot just now, I do see what you mean. I think perhaps our POJA techniques need some POJA'ing.

We made a large step towards this tonight in our conversation. It needs further tweaking, but right now I feel pretty confident about it getting accomplished.



While I believe I am in the beginning stages of letting go of the victimhood, I am slowly starting to recognize when I am using a lot of DJ's. Of course, acknowledgement of the behavior is a first step. I can sometimes do it AFTER the fact, so I believe it is just a matter of time that I realize it in the moment, and soon after will follow recognizing it BEFORE I do it.

I think I have made some progress as of late, where this is concerned. I am pleased with that. I am a slow learner. I always have been. Usually once I learn it, I am able to master it. It gets a little frustrating moving at a snail's pace, but tonight I see progress on my part and that feels very good. I will be patient with myself on this as I continue to keep my eyes open for this behavior. I will try to become more aware and put a little extra focus on it, not only for the purpose of not DJ'ing Patriot, but because I suspect that spouting it out is detrimental to my personal recovery and mastering this would go a long way in rewiring some of my perceptions.



While the above has certainly been completely accurate in the past, I have made some progress in this area.

When I said that it would be easier without the pressure of marital recovery to deal with, I meant more that if I were not in a relationship, it would be less complicated and easier to focus selfishly on myself and personal recovery of not only Patriot's A, but my past issues as well. The fact is, I am married and I have his feelings to consider also.

I worry about taking the time out from marital recovery in order to focus more on personal recovery, because I do care very much about his feelings and I worry that breaking off to do that would create further distance. I am married, so I need to learn to find time to give both aspects the attention that they deserve.



I will begrudgingly admit that this is true. I am terrified of looking to closely in the mirror, based on the fear that I fear that if I try, I will inevitably fail. I fear I will fail. I need to focus on some of these things, instead of making Patriot responsible for marital recovery and my own personal recovery, as well.



Right again. No wonder so many of my efforts have been counterproductive. The truth is that I have time. I have time for both. If I spent some more time focused on personal recovery, I suspect that some of the pieces of marital recovery will fall into place more easily. Although, I do believe that I am sticking my foot out a little, testing the waters towards personal recovery. I am willing, though sometimes struggling, to grasp some of the things you have been patient enough to continue to explain and point out to me. It's a start.



I see what you mean. I have made some significant progress in this area, but still have a ways to go. Patriot and I both seem to have a hard time allowing the other person to have feelings. We are working on that, and have made some progress.



What you said here is directly applicable to the conversation we had tonight. I believe it is the key solution to it, actually.


This is perhaps miscommunication. I said I didn't want to know details of the A right now. I am okay with talking about the "why's". Perhaps Patriot misunderstood the difference between the two subjects in my mind, which I then perceived as a failure to do so on his part. I will clarify this with him, and maybe we can POJA a method and time for doing this when he is comfortable with it. I hope that makes sense.



Made some significant progress on this one tonight that I'm feeling very positive about.



I learned this lesson a little bit tonight and actually saw a better way of looking at it and have some ideas to fine tune it with Patriot (through POJA, of course).



Who is Steve??? (just kidding)

We both expressed a desire to do this tonight. Finances could be a problem. I would like to talk to Patriot about forming a financial plan to accomplish this. We both agreed that it would be a good idea. Hopefully, we can POJA and brainstorm together to find a way to accomplish it.



It sounds SO much easier to do when you say it!



I see that this is vital. Where to begin???



It is one of my biggest sore spots - always has been. Is your snickering due to the fact that you can relate?

Do you really have wild red hair??? Maybe I am around the corner. As I recall, I don't believe you've told me where you live. I know I haven't told you, but maybe Patriot has mentioned it.

I haven't mentioned it out of another fear - a fear of Pep and Melody!!!! ( a little clue, in case you didn't catch it!)

If you don't have wild red hair, I am confident that I could achieve the look you desire. I am VERY talented at what I do, and I love my work. See? I don't bash myself ALL the time!



That is wonderful of you to say. It made me smile really, really big!!!! Thanks for saying that.



Yes, I will capitulate that is true, although it appears in this case that she was right, as she often is. It is sometimes difficult to accept what she says, because she is more logical, when I was and still am one who needs nurturing. It helps me to understand things better and still feel loved. I don't say that to be mean, but my mother has never been very nurturing. She uses a much tougher approach, when I so would have loved for her to nurture me and just once have taken me onto her lap and held me and told me she loved me. I don't even remember ever receiving that, even as as young child.

Tough love certainly has it's place, and her tough love has helped me many times. It would have been nice, though, to have had her show love to me in a nurturing way, too. No one in my family is very affectionate or touchy.

It has enabled me to be very aware of interacting with my own children in that way. Even though my daughter is going to be 18 soon, I often hold her in my lap and rock her when she is sad.

Patriot fills this need for me often, too. I find his touch and his especially his voice, when it is soft, to be so soothing that I have made the specific request that if I am ever comatose, he will comfort me with his voice. He has the most soothing, comforting voice.




I must have secretly wanted that cyber spanking because I knew you would say that.


No. I know that I have a lot of work to do. I am sure God will help, but will he do the work for me? I'm afraid I can't change my perceptions.



Yes I am! You said that I am the biggest threat to the success of my marriage. I don't want to be.



I will have to think on this one.



We actually did sit down and talk about it last night. During our discussion, Patriot admitted that he knew before he went that it would hurt me, but did it anyway.

For some odd reason, that felt good to me. I guess in the past he has told me or acted like he didn't know it would, which made me wonder if I was crazy, or if it was my warped perception acting up again.

He said that he did it because he wanted to feel normal. THAT I can understand. THAT I can accept. Why??? Because it's real. His reason offered me a way for his actions to be interpreted by me as simply his being human, instead of him not loving me. At least that's how it felt at the time.
I was proud of him for owning his true feelings and actions instead of trying to package it up all nice and pretty for me.

I was proud of myself, too, for not LB'ing the heck out of him and for being accepting.

Of course, that was last night. For some reason, this morning I got mad at him and didn't practice those behaviors.

I was angry that what he wants always seems to be something different from what I want, so it's the win/lose situation that no one ever really wins at, except him as long as I don't LB him.

I don't understand why he seems to view spending time with me as giving, yet my spending time with him is taking on my part. It makes me feel rejected and angry.

edited to add: I wrote part of this last night and part just now, so if it doesn't flow, that's why.

Also, I am not ignoring the advice you've given about SH. That isn't entirely up to me.

Good morning Froz ~ heehee, I do not have wild red hair. Part of my recovery was learning to be a bodacious succulant wild woman. Part of my homework was red hair color and purple toenails.

As a side note, I usually do my hair myself and make a MESS of it. Me and a box of Feria hair color is a BAD combination! SO. I am plain old brunette. But when I first started personal recovery, it was such a freedom flag! Turns out my husband loves when my hair is red too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I live in NJ, the land of traffic jams. My 18 mile commute to the office takes me an hour and a half in the morning.

Anyway, it does sound like you are making some progress.

I've a meeting starting in 30 minutes, so I can't respond more now...but..


Because it sounds to me very likely, that TIME is a love language for you. This is not as important to him. When he spends time with you, its because he loves you and is giving to you. Not needing time from you is NOT a rejection dear, he just needs something else from you.

Other than the red hair (which I already have), how did you start personal recovery?



You're right...we don't live anywhere near each other. It takes me about 18 minutes to drive 18 miles in the morning. I also have a bit of a need for speed, though.



It may have been fleeting. The distance is back.


What? He doesn't seem to need much from me besides lunch and clean underwear. I overslept a little this morning and he made his own lunch, so I guess it's lucky for me I did laundry this weekend.

The other things he needs from me I can't provide, such as to pretend that the A never happened and to never be upset or bothered by it, and always, always be HAPPY and never talk about anything negative.

The whole "not needed" thing is very frustrating, too. We call it "pursuit" around here. Of course he hates that word. The most frustrating thing about it is that I have witnessed him giving that to Cinnamon extensively and to OW, too. In my language (however messed up and broken), that translates to: I don't want you as much as I wanted them. I WANTED them badly. I chose you because you are a logical choice and because I didn't want to be alone.

I feel like doing something destructive today. I know that wouldn't serve anyone well, but things are already not so great and besides, everything he does, regardless of whether he knows it will hurt me beforehand, is always to be completely forgiven. Why don't I have the same freedom?

I guess I do have the freedom, but when I make a mistake, I am destructive. When he makes a mistake, it's written off as "he is just learning."

Not feeling so great this morning that he chose normal over my protection.

Also not caring much this morning about marital recovery. Wishing I could get MY needs met.Why does it seem like I have to totally rewire my system of emotional needs in order to be fulfilled and to make him happy?

Sidenote: Home hair color can be a huge mess, and can often have distrastous results. A good hairdresser is worth the investment.

...and PURPLE toenails??? BRAMBLEROSE, you wild woman, you!!!

I have to say that the last few days have been good. I initiated a conversation because there was an "elephant in the room" about something that happened over the weekend. I feel good about that because the old patriot would rather sit and hope the elephant would go away. I have been told numerous times by frozen that the only way an elephant truly goes away is to deal with it. Talk about it. So I took the initiative and talked about it. So I guess I can learn something new that is MB.

It was a very productive conversation. The discussion started about a number of things, but ended up focusing on the dinner with coworkers I passed on followed by the lunch with coworkers that I participated in. She couldn't see the difference. Minus a few minor details that are subject to debate based on what side of the conversation your on, they really aren't different. I know that. I honestly just want to be normal. I want to have a normal marriage with a normal set of circumstances to deal with. It felt normal to go have lunch with coworkers in the middle of the day. It was a work day. I just wanted to feel normal. That is obviously selfish. I also took away the opportunity for frozen to actually 'ok' this lunch by not asking her. If I would have discussed it with her prior to the event and told her that 1) I want to feel normal and 2) This is something I would really like to do then maybe she would have said ok. So, something else I have to add to the toolbox is 'it is ok for me to ask for something I want'. Maybe that sounds odd, but as a FWS, I certainly have ridden the line of I don't have a right to ask for anything. That, however, has not stopped me from taking things from time to time. So, ask. Discuss. Whatever you want to call it. POJA it.

POJA. I understand the idea. I understand what it is about, how it looks, what it would feel like and why it's a great practice. I have one very logical problem with it. Let's say I want something(lunch with the coworkers). Let's further say she wants nothing to do with agreeing to that. So I want lunch with them. She does not want me to go. She is standing her ground. I am standing my ground. I think it is a valid want and harmless. She thinks it is potential for big problems and does not want me to go. What do you do? I am sure most folks would tell me to pass on lunch and explain that I need to protect her in all of this. And I agree that she needs protection. But is the only way to protect her is to remove myself from life outside of the home? Maybe stating it that way is offensive? I don't know. I just want to be normal. So, what do you do when both sides of a POJA just can't meet in the middle? I mean isn't it fact that all people will not always agree? I think it is also fact that my wife and I will not always agree? Ok... so after we POJA and agree to something, what do you do about the fact that I feel guilty for getting what I want? Or, what do you do about her getting what she wants and feeling like I am just giving in and it isn't what I truly want? She does this a lot by the way. I agree to something and she is convinced that I am only agreeing because I want to avoid the conflict of it.


so you have no idea why? Or do you? I am very curious what the reasoning for this is. I spend time with you. I wanted to. I talk to you. I work with you on a project at the home. We have the silliest time at the grocery store just being playful. And then all that is gone? Like it didn't happen? And now the distance is back? I did not put the wall up, nor did I do anything in the last 24 hours that made you unprotected or protected me over you. So...why?


So I win as long as you don't LB me?


For the last time. I do not view spending time with you as giving. It is not some gift you should be happy about and shut up. I like spending time with you. I like spending time doing my own thing too. I do not see it as some extraordinary gift to you if I spend time with you. I do, however, find it very pleasurable to spend time with you and do something fun, interesting or productive. From time to time, I like the fights too. Making up is fun. Getting frustrations out helps also.

I dislike the fact that if you believe something to be true, you will ask and not accept any answer accept the one you have already pre-determined. That is probably a discussion for you and I to have at home. Just letting you know.


I dislike that you are distant, angry and not caring about protecting me right now, based on some feeling that, when asked this morning, you said you didn't know. I know we didn't have the time to talk about anything this morning, due to me going to work, but you sould have at least told me what was wrong.

What do I need besides lunch and underwear? What a crappy remark to make. I love you and if you choose to accept it, then great. If not, then what a waste.


This is crap. I never said this. You will blame actions saying this, but that is crap too. I never said I needed this, have stated that I DON'T want that and you still pin it on me like it is what I want. I don't want it. I never asked you to forget anything. I never asked you to always be happy. To be happy once in a while is a far cry from all the time. Never be bothered by it?? More crap. I am bothered by it. I always will be. Does that mean I through my life down the tubes over something I can't even change? I am bothered when I think of it right now... but I am not doing that anymore and I am learning ways to be a much better man and maintain it. You seem to pin expectation on yourself and label it as 'from patriot' I don't expect you to do anything other than honor your commitments and our vows. Beyond that, I can want all day for things for you... THAT does not make them expectations.

Sure I want you to be happy. What kind of terd husband wants their wife to be miserable.

Sure I want your pain to go away. Again... I don't want you to just be in pain.

I hypothesize that BSs rewrite history too. When they are angry, hurt or the like, I think they will re-write progress into nothingness and make remarks that project the idea of no learning on the part of the WS. I need to work out the language of it... but I think BSs re-write history too. You can't just act like a great discussion that things were learned from never happened.

I own what I did. It was horribly destructive. But we are in recovery. It may not go perfectly everyday, but we are in it, nonetheless.

I imagine this post will come off as angry. I am not. I am concerned about the habit now of progress made and understandings reached, followed by a downturn in attitude fueled by negative thoughts. I want our marriage to work. And though I am not meeting the level of pursuit you believe you should be getting, does that in and of itself mean I am not pursuing? You continue to compare our relationship and what you want in it to two relationships(with cinnamon and ow) that were either not healthy, wrong and destructive, emotionally abusive and/or mistakes.

How are we doing compared to a healthy relationship? That is the yardstick I want to use. A healthy relationship. that is what we are trying to get to.

I love you and hope you have a good day. Please don't give up on me.

I would like for you to have those things, too - just not necessarily at my expense.



Quite possibly, if it had been presented to my that way, my giver would have kicked in. It would have been a nice way for me to feel giving and to still have been able to have felt protected by being given the choice.



I don't even know what to say about this. Are you arguing the effectiveness of POJA because you feel like you will always lose?



I understand the first portion of this statement. It does always seem like the things we want are never the same.

The second part of it is a little irritating. That whole "she does this a lot, by the way" thing...thinking that you agree only because you want to avoid the conflict of it...I do that A LOT? Do you really need to wonder why???



You sound disbelieving! Have you ever known me to be upset about something and NOT tell you why, if I knew???

If I said I didn't know it was because I didn't know.



It is not gone. I remember it, too. It happened.

Yes, the distance is back. You didn't put the wall up? That's debatable. So, you haven't done anything in the last 24 hours to make me unprotected? So the instant you stop UNprotecting me, I should automatically feel protected??? How is it that you are not seeing expectations here?



Yes.



I didn't say those feelings were present based on that.


Those are the things you complain about sometimes if they are not provided. If that isn't true, then tell me...what DO you need? Not want, but NEED?




I disagree with this whole statement. I'll point just one thing out from it. You say that to expect me to be happy just once in awhile is your expectation and that that isn't too much to ask.

Scroll up, love. I was happy yesterday at the grocery store. You said so yourself. Now you are mad because I am not happy anymore. No expectation???

I'll maybe come back to this later.

I'm already concerned that this is one huge LB back and forth.


Maybe someone will respond and tell us what the heck we are doing wrong.

hi to both of you ~

Just a quick note to let you know that I have read this. I'm just completely utterly overwhelmed with work for a few days.

I think the point you are both missing is POJA means that you both have to be ENTHUSIASTIC about the solution.

You should not stop negotiating at the point that Pat says "I want to go to lunch with the team" and Froz says "No way I don't like that".

Clearly, Patriot is NOT ENTHUSIASTIC about staying behind while the coworkers go to lunch. So you don't have a POJA, because if you stop now, Patriot loses and Froz wins. This is bad bad bad for the health of your marriage.

So you don't stop the negotiation there. You have to come up with an answer that you both can really get on board with.

You guys did that the other night with both of you being enthusiastic about Patriot missing dinner, but talking on the phone to Froz instead. THAT was a POJA, because you both 'won'.

Anytime either of you is "winning" at the other's expense, you are in dangerous territory. You both seem to be really power struggling, both of your takers are out in full force. Then you guys go to the other extreme, which is just as bad, when the giver comes out and gives while ignoring the taker.

You are NOT supposed to be sacrificing for the other. You are supposed to be negotiating enthusiasm.

You do not have a Joint Agreement if either taker or giver is unhappy for either of you.

So when Froz says, "I dont want Pat to go to lunch", if you are both stopping there, with Froz feeling guilty for winning while Patriot is resentful for losing....you've stopped negotiating too soon.

As long as one of you is feeling like the loser, you both need to committ to negotiating.

You are right. We don't negotiate. Usually, one or the other just unenthusiastically gives in and becomes resentful, while the other feels guilty for getting what they wanted.

We are either all Taker or all Giver, without negotiation.

We had a discussion the other night about MB principles and the fact that, while we both thought we understood them, we weren't and haven't been following them.

We have kind of just been doing our own thing - doing it our way - which obviously is NOT working.

We pulled out that notebook we made together so very long ago - the one where I printed every single page of all the principles, articles, and questionnaires from this site and Patriot organized them with tabs in a binder.

We stopped working on it shortly after that. We haven't even filled out all the questionnaires! Can you guess which one we neglected to fill out? Of course it was the LB Questionnaire!

We read together the other night some of the sections about LB's.

Steve Harley said things like "If you do THIS..., the end result will be THAT".

Well, guess what? We have THAT!!!

SH has clearly spelled things out for us, a path to Recovery, and we haven't been following it.

IMO, it's lucky for us that we had a lot of love for each other to begin with, or we would probably have zero love for each other now.

As is it, our banks are pretty close to being overdrawn.

I proposed a do-over to Patriot yesterday. A real do-over, holding no mistakes thus far in Recovery against the other.

I later recanted, or I guess doubted would be a better word.

I have a lot of fear where this is concerned.

I'm scared to stick my neck out there again. I keep getting my head chopped off. I feel as though I am at the point where there can be no more room for mistakes.

You spoke of negotiation...

My top EN is honesty. I believe that I can tackle just about anything if it is the truth, not to say that it isn't sometimes difficult. But, at least when I have the truth, I'm not running around wasting my efforts, thinking I'm dealing with one thing when it's really another. What a huge waste of time and effort.

Getting the truth out of Patriot is not easy. He will often be dishonest about even the smallest things.

Hypothetical Example:

Frozen: Are sandwiches okay for you for lunch today, or would you rather have a salad?

Patriot: The sandwiches are fine (because he thinks he is being considerate because the salad is harder to make).

So I make him the sandwiches, when he would have rather had the salad.

I don't find this to be considerate. I don't appreciate when he makes a decision for me based on what he thinks I want to do or not do. He thinks he's being considerate and protecting me with this falsehood.

By doing this, he is allowing me to think I am meeting his needs, when I am not. I do not see why it is so difficult to say

Patriot: I'd rather have a salad, but if it would be easier for you to make, the sandwiches would be fine.

I could then respond with...

Frozen: I am running a little short on time this morning. If you could help me make the salad, it would save me some time.

Or...

Frozen: If you don't mind the sandwiches today, I will allow extra time in the morning and make you a salad tomorrow.

Or...

Frozen: Guess what? I already have the salad stuff chopped up, so it will be just as easy to make as the sandwiches, so if it's salad you want, salad you shall have!

This is just an example of how he has often prevented or disallowed me to meet his needs in the past by being dishonest about them.

It often happens on something much more significant than what I make him for lunch.

As we were reading the LB section, the portion of Selfish Demands was so word for word ME, that as I was reading aloud, I just figured I might as well start inserting my name in there, so I did. He agreed that it was an accurate assessment.

I don't know how to get what I want or need from him without demanding.

The obvious answer is just to ask. Well, that is usually where I begin, before demanding.

So, what do I do if he: forgets, ignores, lies...do I just go without???

I don't want to selfishly demand, but I don't want to go without, as I have often done in the past.

These are the doubts I have about this Do-over.

I'm afraid he won't do it.

I'm afraid I CAN'T do it.

We have also consistently violated the Four Rules.

This is what I wrote to Patriot yesterday:


[color:"red"]The Rule of Care – meet your spouse’s most important emotional needs

The Rule of Protection – avoid being the cause of your spouse’s unhappiness

The Rule of Honesty – Radical honesty: reveal to your spouse as much information about yourself as you know; your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes, dislikes, personal history, daily activities and plans for the future.

The Rule of Time – Take time to give your spouse your undivided attention

Dr Harley says that when love bank accounts are in the negative, couples often feel uncomfortable being in the same room. That sounded frighteningly familiar.

He also says that when couples are not in love (and let’s face it – we may love each other, but we certainly don’t treat each other like two people in love), these rules are very hard to follow, because the Taker resists at every turn (which has been happening for us, I believe). But if these rules can be followed long enough for love to be restored, the Taker gives way to the Giver, and the rules become very easy to follow. In fact, when in love, spouses find them to be very logical and natural.

That sounds nice.

That sounds to me like the bridge between some of the things we have both stated, such as

-we are incompatible

-we can’t meet each other’s needs without someone having to lose

A bridge sounds nice. Loving each other and it being real sounds nice, too (the verb).

I offer up for agreement (joint, of course), delving into these basic principles that we preach, but have neglected to follow.

I mean to really study and practice them until they are habit. I offer that we give each other a fresh start at Recovery – a real do-over, holding none of the mistakes against each other that we have both made in Recovery and starting over at this, hopefully more diligently and a little wiser, knowing now what doesn’t work and not operating on the belief that we are so “made” for each other that our love will be enough to get us through. It is true that our love has gotten us this far and we are still together, but Patriot…WE ARE BOTH MISERABLE!!!!

I propose R-Day: a day that we start over and really begin Recovery, not OUR way, but the MB way, because our way has not been working and I love you and value you too much to continue to participate in destroying our love for each other and putting our marriage at risk. Your are way too important to me, and I don’t want to lose you.
[/color]

It sounded good on paper, but I am afraid of trying. I am afraid of either not being able to do my part, or that I will do my part and he won't do his, and then I will be so angry. I guess my REAL fear is that if we try this and it doesn't work because one or the other of us doesn't do it right, then it really will be over and we will have both lost. I am afraid of losing him.

Hi Froz ~ sounds to me like you are both making some progress in awareness of what is wrong between you both.

Didn't I say just a few dozen times before that you were trying to have it your way?

I'm glad you are beginnning to recognize the destructive behaviors and attitudes that are risking your marriage!


This is not a test of skill ~ its about making a choice and following through.

Will you make mistakes? Yes. So does that mean you shouldn't bother? I guess you could choose to only do those things that you know you are guaranteed not to screw up...but then...aaah well...anger would be your best friend in life.


Ok...not only do you want a guarantee that you will do it perfectly...you want a guarantee from him in advance too?


*gasp* Oh no! Not angry!

Because of course you never feel that now....


Exactly what is it that you think you have right now that you are not willing to risk for a great happy fulfilling marriage?

You still won't do anything but your way...

Let me remind you...from my Detachment with Love thread:

[color:" blue"]What if??

What if's keep us from living in the reality of the moment and also keep us from admitting we are powerless. When we are in the past with the "whys" and the future with the "what ifs" we loose today. Today is the only day we have. [/color]

Where do you get that we are both making progress? You are only talking to me. You pretty much have a one-sided story here.


Sure, I can make a choice for me and follow through...does it mean that in the end I will achieve my goal? No, it doesn't. It doesn't because there are two people involved in my marriage and I can only control one of them.

I can choose and follow through all I want, that doesn't mean that my marriage will be successful.



Does it mean I SHOULDN'T bother? No. It means do I really WANT to bother.

Well, I am certainly doing my share of screwing up, for sure. As for anger being my friend? I don't know about that.


Nope, not initially. But where do you draw the line between mistakes and boundaries? I told Patriot initially that I would allow room for mistakes, but that violating the Policy of Radical Honesty was a definitive boundary.

When he violated it, others here had sympathy for him and told me to cut him a break because he was trying and he "so obviously loved me" and "why would I be willing to throw that away when so many other BS's would just give anything to have their WS's trying?"

This is a boundary that I have allowed the line to be moved several times. So, what do you do when it is continually broken...walk away? Give up?


Yes, I do, and I'm quite tired of it, frankly.



What do I have? Less pain than I could have if I stick my neck out and open myself up completely. I have pain, but it can be worse. Things can always get worse. I'm just not sure how much worse is acceptable.


Is this your current assessment, or an assessment of the past. It sounds like a current one because you used the word "still". I never said "won't". What I am wondering is "should".


I understand your point. I am pondering right now boundaries and what are acceptable losses.

I saw on Faithful Follower's thread that she quoted something from the book The Language of Letting Go.

It prompted me to open my copy because I was curious if what she cited was today's reading, or a random reading from another day. I fully expected it to be today's reading.

It wasn't.

FF, you know how you said you open up the book and it is exactly what you need to hear?

How spooky is this...

Controlling Versus Trust

There was a time in my life when I felt so afraid of and overwhelmed by the very act of living that I actually wanted to make out a schedule for each day of my life for the next five years. I wanted to include all the chores I had to do, when I would do them, even when I would schedule relaxation. I wanted to get some order into what felt overwhelming. I wanted to feel like I was in control.

- Anonymous

Controlling is a direct response to our fear, panic, and sense of helplessness. It is a direct response to feeling overwhelmed, and to distrust.

We may not trust ourselves, God, the Plan, the Universe, or the process of life. Instead of trusting, we revert to control.

We can approach this need to control by dealing with our fear. We deal with fear by trusting - ourselves, God, the love and support of the Universe, the Plan, and this process we call life and recovery.

We can trust that when things don't work out the way we want, God has something better planned.

We can trust ourselves to get where we need to go, say what we need to say, do what we need to do, know what we need to know, be who we need to be, and become all we can become, when we are intended to do that, when we are ready, and when the time is right.

We can trust God and the Universe to give us all the direction we need.

We can trust ourselves to listen, and respond, accordingly.

We can trust that all we need on this journey shall come to us. We will not get all we need for the entire journey today. We shall receive today's supplies today, and tomorrow's supplies tomorrow. We were never intended to carry supplies for the entire journey. The burden would be too heavy, and the way was intended to be light.

Trust in yourself. We do not have to plan, control, and schedule all things. The schedule and plan have been written. All we need to do is show up.

The way will become clear and the supplies will be amply and clearly provided, one day at a time. Trust, my friend, in today.

Today, I will trust that I will receive all I need to to get me through today. I will trust that the same shall happen tomorrow.

The beginning of that stood out to me - the part about planning and scheduling everything, including chores and relaxation.

I am so much worse than that description. I have a Pocket PC and actually have all my tasks in it, all separated by category. I don't schedule relaxation, though. I only allow myself to do that if all my chores are done.

What a control freak!!!

My first reaction after reading that was defensiveness. What's wrong with being organized? My second thought is - nothing. Nothing is wrong with being organized. It's true, though. I do it for the sense of control it provides me.

I've always been a little weird about other people reading my lists. They are very personal. The reason I don't want people to read them is because I often have tasks on my list that I fear other people will think are weird, because I schedule EVERYTHING! Sometimes my daily calendar will look like this:

5:30 Wake up
5:45 Make breakfast and lunch
6:15 Go for walk
7:00 Take shower

You get the idea...

I guess I was afraid for people to know how controlling I was.

Hmmmm...controlling versus trust.

The desire to control is a lack of trust (just seeing how it sounds).

The second thing that stands out to me is this...

"We can trust ourselves to get where we need to go, say what we need to say, do what we need to do, know what we need to know, be who we need to be, and become all we can become, when we are intended to do that, when we are ready, and when the time is right."

I am not ready just yet.
The time is not right.
I'll have to think about it. Maybe tomorrow it will feel right.

Sidenote: I read the wonderful things that Patriot and others said about me over on that other thread. I am WAY to chicken to actually go over there, but I just wanted to say thank you. Those were very nice things you said about me.

Okay, being the control freak that I am and fearing what is ahead, I looked forward to the next few days in the book. The topics were:

Letting Go of Chaos
Being Honest with Ourselves (it gets worse)
Feelings and Surrender
Throwing Out the Rule Book (omg!)
Our Good Points (can this GET any worse???)
Detaching with Love (it can ALWAYS get worse)

Yikes! That's way too much growing for one week!

hiya Froz ~ sorry I disappeared for a few days.

Work has really become nuts, and I am still really very bad with knowing where to draw boundaries.

I am a workaholic. Really. Bleah.

My boss came back from maternity leave and the first thing she did was yell at me for working too much. I think God probably gave me my boss for a reason, because too many bosses would be happy to reap the benefits of my destructive behavior.

Anyway, enough about me.

My dear, control freaks are all about fear and the illusion that if they just get organized and control everything right, that bad things won't happen.

Of course, bad things happen anway becuase control is an illusion.

But this makes for a very angry control freak.

So what I get from reading your post is that you are trying to weigh the odds, and if you don't get a guarantee of a good outcome, you aren't going to bother.

Fear is lack of faith in God.

How are you doing hun?

No apology necessary! I, too have been very busy - busy with work this week and very reflective and haven't had a whole lot to say or contribute in a verbal manner. I've been spending some time thinking about things - specifically pondering what it is that keeps me feeling stuck.

I've also had some rather interesting conversations with Patriot over the last few days. We have really been exploring the POJA concept and the ways we have been applying this theory in Recovery. We haven't done much of that. We thought we had, but only in small, irrelevant things - almost like a joke.

The problems I see thus far with applying this concept to its full capacity are:

Struggle with negotiation.
The win/lose mentality

I was discussing with Patriot his question a few days back regarding what to do when both sides seem to be so opposing that he found it difficult to see a compromise or room for negotiation.

It suddenly occured to me that what we want SEEMS like they are on opposite sides of the spectrum, but really they are not.

I made the comment in an e-mail yesterday that I hate the nights when he has school.

He responding with "I am thinking of scrapping the whole school idea."

I got to thinking about it...

Is that really what I want...for him NOT to go to school? No, that isn't really what I want. Sometimes it seems so black and white, but really it isn't.

I DO want him to go to school. It something he really wants and I love him. I want him to be happy and to better himself, educationally. So, while he perceived that what I wanted is for him NOT to go to school, that isn't really what I want at all.

What I want is to feel like I matter, that I am a priority. I want to know that I am not lowest on the list, behind what he wants for himself. I want to be considered, at the very least. By the same token, I don’t want dishonesty. I don’t want him to do something with or for me that he doesn’t want to do. He is often dishonest about things like this. The end result is that I wind up questioning or disbelieving EVERYTHING because I fear he isn’t being honest about what he wants. If he is honest, that is where acceptance on my part comes in. I need to learn to not always take it so personally.

I believe that there is a way to accomplish both. Our desires are not always contradictory. We simply need to negotiate so that both of us can be satisfied with the outcome. We weren't digging deep enough.

I wrote all of the above a couple of days ago. We have been applying some of this since then.

The dishonesty is a big problem for me. It's bigger than I even originally thought.

I feel askew - never knowing what's real and what's not - not even trusting myself to discern between the two, and never really knowing exactly what I'm up against.

We also had a talk about DETAILS - not a talk about them, but a talk about talking about them. I told him that it's not that I am unwilling to talk about them. I am unwilling to be his target while he is practicing talking about them. It's too painful for me. I also would prefer it in one big dose - no more short doses of pain. When he is ready to do it for real, and be completely honest, I'll do it. I'm sick of that wall. I want it to come down, but I'm not willing to continue to "practice" at it anymore, the way we've done it in the past.

I do feel stuck. I often feel like he comes to me for all the answers, which leaves me feeling like his teacher or his mother. I don't have all the answers for all his personal struggles. I'm not even objective enough to really help him, I don't think.

I am stuck, and more than a little frustrated with him and with myself for the position that we are in.

I was thinking about the couples here at MB who have chosen to rebuild their marriages and have been successful.

It seems to me like those couples are trying to get back something they once had, and build upon that foundation and improve upon it.

Patriot and I don't have a foundation. We aren't trying to REbuild. We are trying to build something out of nothing.

I'm not feeling too great this morning. Today is the aforementioned "Cinnamon Baby Shower". Also, I'm thinking about D-Day anniversary, which is exactly three weeks from today. I don't feel as though we have made much progress. I dread that anniversary. That was such a horrible day.

I don't know what else to say.

I don't know Froz ~ I am glad I don't have what I used to have. I am glad that I am not the person I used to be. That was a destructive path for my marriage and for me personally.

My husband and I have something totally different than what we had pre-A. We had to unlearn bad habits and learn new ways of relating in recovery. So you could say that we had to tear up the foundation and start over.

You don't have to unlearn bad marital habits because you didn't have them. So from where I sit, you are ahead of the curve.

My question to you is ~ why do you keep looking for reasons why you can't recover?

There is absolutely no reason why you can't. So stop finding excuses not to roll up your sleeves and get to work.

And I know you don't want to hear it, but you must work at safety for Patriot ~ so that he can be honest with you. No you aren't responsible for his honesty ~ that's his choice, but you can make this infinitely more difficult, or you can make this easier.

So, how do you go about making things safe for him? The answer is in your own personal recovery.

Punishing anger and resentment on your part are seriously high barriers to honesty on his part.

I know what you mean about honesty ~ it's my most important emotional need, and I bet it is yours too. Again, it comes down to trust in yourself. I do not rely on my husband's honesty to root me in reality. I rely with confidence on my OWN instincts, perceptions and intelligence.

I did figure out that being secure within myself, trusting myself, respecting myself, were all the keys to being safe for my husband to be honest.

How I felt about ME (and this is why you NEED personal recovery) truely made a difference. You see, being secure and confident and believing in my own selfworth, made my husband's honesty about his feelings far less scarey.

When I depended on his feelings to tell me how I felt about myself, his negative feelings were devastating to me.

As I grew in self confidence, I was secure enough to let him have his feelings, and be ok within myself.

Thats where we need to head with you.

I guess because I am looking for some way that our situation differs from others' situations here to explain why we're not achieving that "better than ever" marriage.


Really??? It sure doesn't feel that way! I guess some could say, as Patriot has, "at least there hasn't been infidelity in your marriage".

To that I say, SO WHAT! So he didn't break promises to God...he broke promises to ME! We lived as though we were married before - it definitely wasn't a dating relationship. We both had just as much invested in this relationship as a married couple - part of each others families, children, finances, a home...

It hurts just as badly. I guess I just thought that at least people who were married for a while before the A had some good memories. I don't have many good memories or things to hold on to now. Everything that I thought was good is now tainted in some way by the A, or by his dishonesty.



I'm really working now. I have been all along, yet there still exists this enormous WALL! There still exists all these nauseating thoughts and times when I just want to run away and I wonder why I chose to be here. I wonder why he chose to be here. Love? It's not as simple as that, I don't think.

I wonder if this is just the same old behavior, on my part, of choosing someone who has treated me badly. What if the reasons aren't good enough? What if the reasons are unhealthy reasons and we were already just doomed from the start???



I struggle with this one. I have let go of most of the punishing behavior. But, if he is honest with me about something and I am anything but thrilled with it, he still FEELS punished. I can't tackle that one. I can't NOT have feelings about something. I don't even have to act on those feelings and he still feels punished. Sometimes just him saying the words to me feels like punishment to him - the actual facing of the conflict. I don't know how to fix that.



My first reaction is to say that that sounds like a pipe dream. My second is to wonder - if I'm so "healthy", what do I need him for?

Yes, honesty and openness is my #1 EN.

Sometimes I am so sick of Recovery and dealing with this crap and all that comes along with it.

I also get pretty weary - feeling like if we are ever to get there, I have to lead us there. He is a willing participant, for sure. But I don't have all the answers and I can't force him to be honest, or face things, or even be cognitive about his actions.

The baby shower wasn't so bad. I just did it. I just went and acted politely and when it was time, I left. No big deal. It also occurred to me this morning that she might even feel less than confident because I was going to be there.

Last week, I met the new girlfriend of my first ex-husband. The abusive, alcoholic/addict ex-husband. He actually sent her (two weeks into their relationship) to deliver his child support for him - to my work (Where does he find these women???).

One of the girls at work later told me "I bet she felt pretty awful when she met you - seeing how beautiful and classy you are. I certainly wouldn't want to be in her shoes, standing beside you for comparison." I was floored! I can't believe anyone would actually think that. I certainly don't FEEL that way.

It occurred to me that it is possible that Cinnamon may feel that way, for all I know. So, I just let go of the inferior feeling and just dealt. I also didn't want Patriot to be sitting at home, fretting all day, wondering what kind of mood his wife would be in when she got home.

Why do women COMPARE so much? I see them do it all the time, "I saw OW and I was much prettier than her, so that makes it all okay", or something along those lines. It doesn't make it all okay for me. I don't even know that I am or that it even matters. Men don't always choose women for looks. Why do women do that??? Do men do that?


I'm afraid we don't have what it takes to get it done. I'm afraid that if we ever did have a chance, we've long since blown it. I don't want to start all over in Recovery a year later, because we did it so wrong the first time.

Interesting thing happened to me today. I was given a gift from a female coworker. That's not it. The interesting thing is I told Froz about it immediately. Well... my terms of immediately. I knew she was at a Dr. appt so I emailed the info to her along with a statement in an attempt to reassure her that I did not try to initiate anything and that she(froz) is who I love and want to be with.

(aside) commitment is something froz and I have. Tons of it. THAT is why she and I will make it. Commitment.

Anyway, froz calls me a little while later and asks me what I need from the store(commissary... yay!). I tell her. And then on the phone I think about telling her about the gift. I think I already told her... no need doing it now. And that doesn't feel right. She was on the phone right now. Immediate felt like right then. Let her know what she is dealing with so she doesn't have some nice conversation with me and then get home to an email to be upset about(or not) and then wonder why I didn't tell her when I was talking to her.

It felt right to be OPEN(my biggest failing of openness and honesty). So I told her. I expected she would not like it. She did not seem to like it much but she did not punish me. I didn't do anything really. I didn't try to hide it either.

Why would I hide a gift from a female co-worker if I had nothing to hide? To not get in trouble. I have no credibility. I don't want the stress of something I didn't even instigate. TO PROTECT ME.

wrong answer. I must protect my wife so she knows what she is up against. Dr. Harley talks about instincts and habits. Mine(one of many) has been to protect me. That leaves froz unprotected.

The truth, no matter, protects her.

This whole event today(seemingly small, I guess) really got me thinking about the 'usual' relationship trait I learned from watching my parents and reinforced by SO MANY friends was the idea of not disclosing something if it really didn't matter.

Of course, who judges what matters? And can you be absolutely sure that in your non-disclosing mode you will disclose the right things? And why hide the truth from your spouse? Don't they deserve it? Yes, they do. I deserve it. So does she.

I deserve no pat on the back for this. I just wanted to talk about the fact that it crossed my mind to not tell her at all to "stay away from getting into trouble". I short circuited a behavior and replaced it with the correct one. That is what I am supposed to be doing. And now that I have done it, I know I can do it.

I could expound on this more, but I have to go shortly. Maybe I come back to this later and explain it not like a damn child.

I am proud of you for being cognitive about your actions and for recognizing a behavioral pattern and short-circuiting it. It takes a lot of effort, self-awareness, and decisive action to change a habit - particularly a lifetime habit.

Thank you very much for protecting me with the truth and allowing me the opportunity to decide how I feel about it. The fact that you shared that honesty makes the gift mean so much less. It kind of makes me feel as though YOU AND I are the ones who share the secret, the intimacy, and that feels like a shield of protection against the rest of the world.

Thank you for that protection.

As for how I feel about the gift - I don't like it, of course. I don't like that this woman felt comfortable enough with you to give you any gift, however meaningless.

I do understand that you have a way of making people feel comfortable. You made me feel comfortable enough to share things with you early on - before we even began our relationship - and that "way" you have is one of the many things I love about you.

Sometimes I wish I could hide you away from the rest of the world, so no one else will see how cute, funny, smart, attractive, and special you are. I want to do that so that no one will try to take you away from me. Logically, I know I can't do that. YOU are the only one who can take YOU away from me.

I cherish you. I value you. You are worth very, very much to me. Please continue to protect me from losing you with your honesty, and by continuing to allow access to your needs only to me.

Thank you again for not taking away my right to decide how I feel about this. Thank you for allowing me to make that decision.