Hmmm...I went for a walk and I've been thinking quite a bit about honesty and how important it is to me.

I was thinking about the fact that it is almost a year post D-Day and that I am just now getting some willing doses of it. That has made Recovery more difficult, undeniably. But, by the same token, there are many things I've done that have made Recovery more difficult. There are also many things I've done that have made it more difficult for Patriot to give me honesty. Given that it was difficult for him in the first place, some of my actions haven't made it any easier.

I still believe honesty should be a given, no matter what the reaction from me, but I didn't need to make it any harder than it had to be.

I was thinking about this statement I made...



Even though it is almost a year, a really rough year, later - is it worth it? Has it been worth it? Is it worth the risk, no matter how long it takes?

There is really no question in my mind. I didn't even really have to weigh it long. It is completely worth it. It's worth it no matter how long it takes. Even if we crawl at a snail's pace, it's worth it. What I really mean is that PATRIOT is worth it.

Even IF in the end we are unsuccessful with Recovery, just the thought of Patriot overcoming the habits of conflict-avoidance that protected him as a child, but have caused him so much pain as an adult, would be worth it.

I know that sounds kind of weird, but I really do mean it. If things didn't work out between us and all I took away from this M was the knowledge that he had learned to overcome these habits and could have a happy, healthy relationship and life, that knowledge would give me satisfaction. I really don't want him to hurt himself.

Hi Pat ~

Why not?

Celebrate the successes. Truely.

The attitude that someone does not deserve praise for doing what they are "supposed to do" is really just bunk. Everyone deserves praise and encouragement and cheers when they accomplish cool stuff ~ like learning that honesty with Froz is not so bad, and actually, kinda nice! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


I haven't dragged you out to talk about your family and the 'truths' you learned as a child. But it certainly deserves examination by you. Do those truths you learned growing up serve you as an adult? If not, toss them out.

I also grew up in a house of secrets.

I learned in recovery that: We are only as sick as our secrets.


Well...along the line of sick secrets: Those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.

Wouldn't you rather share all the icky and cool parts of your self and be loved for the whole you, instead of just the parts you choose to share?

Aaaah. Looking for that loophole?

I tried that.

There are no shortcuts.

You have to do the work to get that 'better than ever'.

And I'll repeat myself...




Nah, you are still hoping theres a way to get your way. It's ok, I had to look for myself too. The problem with needing to 'see' for myself was that I put myself through alot of unnecessary pain.

I'm hard headed.


That wall is YOU. You have a whole life history of pain and hurt and anger that needs to be dealt with before you can recover. It's going to hurt, but then you will heal. None of it has to do with Patriot. He's your excuse to keep from focusing on you. If you can blame him for the misery you have right now, you don't have to address YOU.


You know why.


Why don't you ask him and accept what he says? Then accept what he says instead of rejecting his words and coming up with your own analysis?


He isn't treating you badly now is he?

Froz, I choose a man who was not the best man for me. The who-I-was that chose my husband is not who-I-am today. I can't do anything about the who-I-was except examine my motivations, learn, and move forward.

You've grown and changed. Your reasons for staying now are not necessarily the reasons you choose to get married.

Does it matter?

What matters is that you have chosen.

Now suit up, and get out there on the field and get to work.


Perfectionism and victimization all in one sentence. Damn yer good girlfriend! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

From my Detachment with Love thread...



Stop right there.

Stop trying to control the outcome (eg His feelings).

He has to be honest, and so do you. If you do not punish him for his honesty, and you tell him honestly, without LBs what your reaction to his information is, then you have been the wife you are supposed to be. Period. His reaction to your reaction is not yours to control.


You can't fix that. You are powerless over 'that'.

You can fix you. You can be the wife you should be. And let God take care of the rest.

The thing about God is, if you are meddling and fixing...he respects you enough to stay out of your way. He'll patiently stand to the side and let you wear yourself out trying to do-it-yourself.

He only steps in when you sit back down on the bench and let go long enough for him to do what was His job in the first place!


All I can say is:



Well.

How do I respond to this?

Healthy people are the ones with emotionally satisfying relationships. It takes 2 healthy people to have that.

So.

I guess what bothers me is the implication that you "need" Patriot to fill some hole in you. And that if there is no hole then, you don't need him.

Unholey people are necessary for good relationships.

(Yes, its late and I'm really tired. My jokes are really stupid. Whats worse is I giggled when Iwrote that.)

You shouldn't need Patriot to fill a hole. Thats why I keep bugging you to fix yourself. A good relationship is built on 2 people sharing their own happiness with each other. They don't make happiness by plugging each others holes.



Pretty arrogant on your part, dont you think?


Nope, you can't. Thats what I've been trying to tell you. You are worn out and weary from pounding your head and powerstruggling over something you just don't have any control over.

If you'd stop trying to straighten Patriot up, you'd have alot of free time to look at you!


There is no one keeping score..no timer running...

~ Progress...not perfection.

I just had to respond to this:



<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Spoken like a virtuous martyr.

So you are going through all this pain and suffering just so he can 'see the light' and be a better man?

Oh and one more commment before I go to sleep...

If you are not honest with Patriot about how you feel when he is honest with you....

Then he will never ever have the accurate information he needs to judge for himself what he has to do to protect you.

If you keep withholding information about you from him, because of your need to control his reaction, then you are doing nothing but participating in the downward spiral of negativity in your marriage.

It's like this.

My husband loves to cook.

Sometimes, I hate how he cooks things.

Now, he wants praise for his cooking, and doesn't want to hear that I do not like something.

Which is more loving and protective of our marriage?

A. A white lie: Oh honey, this is delicious, I love it! (hubby walks away beaming with pride, determined to cook it repeatedly for me because I like it and he loves me.....and I get to sit through repeat dinners that I hate, and resent him for it)

Or...

B. Honesty: Honey, thank you for cooking dinner, I am so glad I didn't have to. Even though I prefer my dinner cooked a different way, I feel loved when you put effort into helping me. I would really love this dish cooked ...

How did I miss all of this????

I've been waiting days for a response. I didn't see it.

How did I miss that?

Too bad I didn't see it before, because now I feel desperate.

I can't do this anymore.

I have been hurting for a very long time…instead, it seems like his focus is being placed on his comfort and his protection, and at his pace.

I’m not his mother.

I’m not his teacher.

I’m not a professional, and I can’t “fix” him. I can’t even fix me, particularly when I am trying so hard to fix him.
I can’t make him understand.

I can’t make him bare his soul to me.

I’m tired of being lonely.
I’m tired of hurting.
I want to heal and I fear that I can’t do it in this marriage - too many distractions.

I don't know what the [censored] to do.

I really can't do this anymore. I'm going for a walk.

How long have you been in Recovery?

Almost a year.

It's taken a full two years for my FWH to get completely out of the fog...

What's going on?

Okay BR,



I'm not looking for a loophole. I'm trying to figure out why it isn't happening for us.



Am I? What is "my way"? I just want to be happily married to Patriot. I want him to be happily married to me.

I know that my perceptions often leave me with pain that may be unnecessary - but am I crazy???? Being betrayed hurts - am I perceiving this wrong???



Obviously I am beyond hard headed. Perhaps I am just plain stupid, because you are telling me and I'm obviously not getting it. You must be the most patient woman on the planet.



I'm not the wall. I'm being open - being a vessell. I may be hindering Recovery, but I'm not hindering intimacy.



I'm not blaming him for the entirety of it. He did have a hand in hurting me, but he's not responsible for all of my pain. I know that. I told him that. I'm telling him now.

I realize it has to be dealt with before I can Recover, but how am I supposed to function in a healthy manner in this M in the meantime? I don't see how. I am wondering if I should leave until we can both sort out our personal issues.

I don't feel safe enough to drop my attention from the marital Recovery to focus on personal Recovery.



Because I don't trust him to be honest with me or with himself. If I do just simply accept what he says as truth, and it isn't truth, I will be the one who hurts.



I feel neglected, unsafe, and completely unprotected.



I disagree.



See? I'm so good at it, I don't even have to try. I am hopeless. Why do you bother?



He doesn't HAVE to be honest. So, I do my part...big deal. That doesn't mean he will do his. So just let go and let him do his part? What if he doesn't? If he doesn't, then I will be the one to hurt. How can I protect myself from his dishonesty or lack of openness? I don't trust him to protect me.



I don't trust Him to protect me, either.



Probably. If I don't lead, Patriot will walk around acting as though nothing ever happened so he can be "normal". The end result of that is...well you see where that got us.

I think each of us have too many negative behaviors we brought to this relationship and it is hindering progress. I am wondering if we shouldn't separate until we can grow up.

Somehow, my marriage feels like it is imploding today.

A couple of my co-workers(male) were re-enlisting today for the last time before they will retire. They decided that they wanted to go to Hooters for lunch. I was invited a few days ago to this, and immediately told froz about it. The few days have passed and she and I did not negotiated it fully so I opted not to go. Her fear was that female co-workers would be there and that because she was not invited(the co-worker that invited me let me know that his wife would not be there and that his work life and home life are just separate). I figured that It was because of scantly clad waitresses at first, but after she talked to me about it, I understood.

We had our chance to discuss it last night, but I blew that by getting caught up in a completely useless thread. So did she.

So then today comes and I am not feeling good anyway because I have been chastized by a mod, twice, a regular, numerous times, and froz reminds me, right at bedtime, the chance I missed yesterday to talk to her and work on getting elephants out. Also a bounced check due to some oversight and a bunch of broken dishes due to my clumsiness. And the angry outbursts I had because of these thing(though I did not focus them at her, because she saw them, that was enough to make them LBs).

So today we are talking via email and I am trying to negotiate or work it out and then the time comes and we don';t have it resolved yet.

So I opt out. I saw going to hooters and female co-workers being there and not having fully negotiated this situation with my wife as too much risk and I did not want it. She was not comfortable. And neither was I. So I don't go. Seems like a logical enough answer??

I guess not. Froz tells me that I made the decision for her. The discussion tends to seem like she thinks I was not being open and honest about my desire to go and so I have lied again.

It seems like the only way to prove I was not lying in this situation was to go, regardless. Because I think she is SURE I wanted to go regardless of what she thought. And that is not true. Had I wanted to go and not cared for what she thought, I would not have told her immediately and I would not have been so tied in knots over it because on one hand it was supportive of a co-worker and I am here for a number of hours in the day, but overridding that was that was the fact that my wife is more important than these guys, I will be with her forever and I care more for her than I do them or my desire to go to Hooters with the guys.

So as we tried to negotiate things via email(I am working so I can't call) the time came and they were leaving... so I decided that I would cut back to fundamentals for this instance.

I do not want to go more than I want to protect my wife. And without her enthusiastic approval of my choice, then protecting her wins. Thats what I applied today. If the wife is not invited, I won't go there to simply participate in excluding her. If we negotiate it, then that would be different. We tried and didn't get it done in time. Due to half-a## trying... but you learn from this.

I was open and honest. I made the COGNATIVE choice to protect my wife OVER selfish desires. I make the DISTINCT effort to not talk to any female co-workers about my marriage or life in an intimate way. I remain on alert for any flirtations or temptations just so I can simply stop them in their tracks.

I am so aware of the risks that I was oblivious to before and I cognatively avoid the risks I do not have to accept(not perfectly) and yet it does not seem to make things better. She has done so much work and really applied things like removing LBs and helping me to converse with her.

We talked to days ago about talking about past history. Heither one of us is looking forward to it. It has to be done. She said explicitly that she did not want to be a test bed. I needed to get it all out the first time(no lying and have everything I can remember ready) so I have been spending time writing things down to pull thoughts together so I can be prepared as possible. I figured a few days to a week. Then I would be ready with the whole story. My why. What happened when. As much as I can remember. I am trying to make sure I have the fact collected together so she does not get tested on. I am trying to prepare.

It upsets me that she wanted to talk to me about something last night and did not initiate it. OR remind me to talk about something. I thik a very detrimental idea towards MB is keeping score in a fashion to say "I will not do more than you" Somedays, I will be the stronger player. Some days, she will. Keeping score is a very bad thing that feed entitlement. That is my solid thought on it. I hate keeping score. It sucks.

Im done for now. What a humiliating deal. Humiliate my wife and then not be able to fix anything. And keep screwing things up. what a life.

I kind of disagree with the need to analyse the past.

Both my H and I have many issues.

We have worked on creating a NEW MARRIAGE...

Focusing on the good that we had..that kept us together...

Hi guys ~ Froz, email me ok? patti@san-andreas.com

Mimi is right - sheesh the one year mark was rocky for us too. Froz, don't make the mistake of looking at couples who are years into recovery and thinking yours is bad.

Separating is not going to heal your marriage. Steve Harley was pretty emphatic that marital recovery is greatly hindered while living under different roofs.

I don't think you 2 should be having the 'details' talk right now, because in the current state you are both in, there is noway that this conversation will have a beneficial outcome.

CALL STEVE HARLEY. Yes I know, he's expensive.

How much is your marriage worth?

How much does separation and divorce cost?

Patriot, from what you wrote, I think you did exactly right. For what its worth, I remember my husband's time in the Navy, and it is very much an atmosphere that can be easily destructive to marriages. It's one of many reasons he got out. We couldn't handle it as a couple.

***because she was not invited(the co-worker that invited me let me know that his wife would not be there and that his work life and home life are just separate). ***

And this is okay with you. My first thought is "Geez, no wonder Froz and Pat are struggling so much."

You could not say, "Co-worker, that's a lousy way to run a marriage and a lousy way to treat your wife."

You could not say, "I don't want to hang around with men who treat their wives that way and deliberately cut them out of half their lives."

You could not say, "I'M going out to celebrate the re-enlistment at a place where all of our wives are welcome. After all, the re-up sure as h*ll affects them, too. Now, do you all want to go to Hooters and stare at boobs with this loser, or do you want to go with ME and OUR WIVES to celebrate with lunch/dinner at a fun place where we can ALL enjoy ourselves together?"

Just a suggestion. It's worth what you paid for it.
Mulan

I guess not. Froz tells me that I made the decision for her

Well...in all honesty, I think that situations like this are what resulted in that one MC telling you that you are screwed.

Call me stupid, but EVERY decision that a person makes does not HAVE to be POJAed for heaven's sake.

There is way too much micromanaging going on there IMHO.

committed

His remarks were not ok with me. His ways are not mine. I am not going to choose to exclude her from my life on purpose. I do not hang around with him either. That I have to work in the same section with him is totally out of my control. That I not participate in like behaviors or agree with him IS within my control.

I did not chastize him for his behavior. I am sensitive to the fact that a large number of folks know nothing about MB or what kind of ideals are professed here. I am also sensitive to the fact that he is a grown man and it is not my business to save him. Do you think I should confront him with what I believe? I am sure it would be a strong thing to do, but for what reasoning? I am willing to listen and learn something on this idea because right now I am just running under the idea that to keep things level, I will not intrude in his life and he can not intrude in mine.

I am 32. These guys are 40ish or more. Set in their ways and not going to listen to 'some whipper-snapper' on things. That is how I see it. I am full able to NOT be like them. I have to work with them and they do not try to influence me to hurt my wife. Personal life issues are not discussed up here, nor would I want them to be.

That said, please let me know what you think I should do. Should I tell this co-worker that I think his ideas are bunk? I assume you work and know what co-worker relationships are like(and I don't mean the ones that lead to affairs) so I really want to know what you would do in my case. And why?

I'm in the military and on deployment, so I really don't have quitting as an option. Also, based on my MOS, there is not another section I can move to, although I think that is an extreme answer to not an extreme problem. My opinion. I am truly interested in yours.

What I paid for it. Nothing. And got something. So worth more than I paid for it. Thank you for taking the time
after I was appearently insulting to you. I truly appreciate it.


Also, for what it is worth, there seems to be a general idea that infidelity runs rampant in the military. I disagree. Infidelity is not running rampant where I work right now. It was in the civilian job were I used to work. As a mtter of fact, I know of not once case of infidelity up here. At my last job, I know a a few within 6 months of being there. The military as a whole is a very professional organization, in my experience. Where that goes out the window, however is on overseas deployments. infidelity in the military during an overseas deployment is probably higher than the median.That could be a whole topic by itself, but I will say that with the principles from here it would a challenge easily overcome. From 98-99 I was on a one year tour to Korea, married at the time, and knew nothing of MB. I, not once, engaged in an affair while I was there. Sadly, my wife then hit me with wanting a divorce 2 days into my mid-tour leave. I went back to Korea to finish my tour thinking my marriage was over and that I was as good as single. Still no inappropriate relationships with women. So it is doable. And I think even MORE doable and just about guaranteed if you have a MB foundation. Just an additional thought.

I didn't know what to do with myself, so I went to sleep. I dreamed that I was at OW's house. She was acting like nothing bad ever happened and I was helping her decorate her new baby's room. I actually had some very good ideas, now that I think about it.

Then I noticed that the diamond in my wedding ring was missing. I was searching everywhere for it and she was basically not paying attention to it.

I wonder what that means.

Oh well, I'm awake now and I checked first thing - the diamond is still in my ring. Thank goodness, as it was Patriot's real mother's ring. Maybe I should have the prongs tightened.

I wasn't upset about the Hooters incident, btw.

I was worried that Patriot wasn't being honest about what he wanted and I was bothered that it seemed like he avoided negotiating it.

Win/lose

He lost. I don't feel like I won. I really didn't mind if he went.

He played that game by himself because I didn't get to participate much in the negotiation.

lmao.

That MC told Patriot he was screwed because he was married to me.