Input:
How long? I could be mistaken, but that reads as though you think something or someone is stopping you from doing this. Who or what is it? If that is what you want, what is stopping you?


Do you think you should still feel horrible about yourself? You have turned away from your sin and have the distance of time from your betrayal. Given that, why do you still feel bad about yourself?

Is it because I still feel bad? Is that what you are waiting for? Are you waiting for me to be happy so that you can feel good?


Why did you find it irritating?



If you are ready, what is it that is stopping you? If you are not THAT man anymore, who are you? Who said you were that man today? It sounds like YOU say that. It sounds like as long as I am hurt, you will continue to feel like that man.



How are you being lashed out for this?



To do what?


What is "right". What is it exactly that you are trying to accomplish? I certainly never said you couldn't do anything right. It reads like you are trying to accomplish something and are frustrated that no matter what you do, you aren't achieving it. What are you trying to achieve?


Who expects that of you? I don't. If you are suggesting that I am expecting that, why would I plead to hear your feelings?



What are you pissed about?

Committed (or anyone else who shares these opinions):


This reads as though Patriot's being fully "pissed" was expected. Why would you expect him to be so pissed?


What is it that you (or anyone) perceives as punishing behavior on my part...because I am still hurting?

A year IS a long time. A year is a long time to be hurting. A year is a long time to wait for the truth. A year is a long time to feel unsafe. A year is a long time to feel pressured and unaccepted for not healing on someone else's timeline.


You may not "know" that this is what is happening here, but it's being suggested as a possibility. I'll just head that off at the pass by saying...

Writing me off already?

You do have a way of knowing. You don't have to guess. I'll tell you what is happening here. I may not be able to speak for what is happening with Patriot, but I can speak for what is happening with me.

You are what you are.

This is what I am:

I am a woman who felt rejected at birth. I am a woman who felt rejected as a child, a teenager, and as an adult. I am a woman who has been betrayed - sometimes perceived betrayal, sometimes actual, undeniable betrayal. I am a woman who has always felt unaccepted for simply being who I am.

Each time any of these actions occured, I felt knocked down and I picked myself up, continuing to believe there was something better and I moved forward. After this last blow, I finally felt knocked OUT. I'm not finding it easy to pick myself up and continue believing in something better. I am working at it, but I'm definitely finding it more difficult.

I am what I am.

It took many blows to knock me out - a great many, actually. Patriot's was not the only one. His was just the last one - the one that happened to knock me out. Perhaps if any of the other blows hadn't occured, I'd have one more I could have taken - I don't know.

What I am is a woman who now, if it's going to be possible to pick myself up, will need to go back and heal from every single one of those hits. All of my pain is not about Patriot.

I need to heal.

I need to feel safe before I proceed with marital Recovery. I have stated that one of the things that would help me to feel safe is complete Radical Honesty. I am just now beginning to receive it.

I need time to achieve personal Recovery, because as I said, I have much, much more to recover from personally than this betrayal.

Some things that would help me to achieve personal Recovery are: patience, understanding, support, comfort, suggestions, and NO FURTHER DAMAGE. A safe environment in which to do this would also help me.

Being allowed to feel without being ridiculed would help me. Being allowed to have my own feelings about things without making Patriot feel like a failure because I am not happy would help me.

I could really use the help. I will continue to try on my own, but help would be very much appreciated.

That is who I am RIGHT NOW.

Anyone can choose to accept me for who I am right now, or they can write me off as unhelpable, or a hopeless cause, or someone who is "living in the past", or refusing to move forward, or any other judgments along those lines.

None of those things are going to change who I am right now.

I am what I am.

I'm working on being someone else, but this is who I am right now.

Patriot, if you are hanging around because you are waiting for me to be something or someone else so you can feel good about yourself, you are looking in the wrong place.

I can't give you that any more than you can hand over a box of "healing" to me. That is your own journey, not mine. We can make our personal journeys side by side or we can make them apart.

Mine may take longer than yours. I have waited a year for the beginning of openness from you. Can you wait for me? If that is something you can't do, I would like to know as soon as possible. I really have no desire to have further things to heal from, nor do I wish to be blind-sided if you decide one day that you can't accept me for who I am.

You 2 need to stop talking to each other on the board...this is not helpful.

Patriot ~ your wife is hitting bottom. As I have said to her in the past, I will say to you now. Her pain, her anger, her hurt, are really not about you. How about applying "Detachment with Love" to yourself and her?

As FF pointed out, Frozen is only just now getting answers that you resisted giving her...and later she avoided asking for...

In terms of marital recovery, the 'answers' have put her back at D Day.

This doesn't mean you can't recover. This means, I think, that it's likely you WILL recover.

She does not have a horrible husband, in fact I think she has the husband she needs.

Becareful though. I know you love Froz. It tears you up to see her pain, and as a ENTJ type of guy, you want to just charge in and set everything right for her.

You can't.

It's easy to attempt to make this about you, because if you can make it about you, you can control it and fix it.

You can't. And that you can't does not make you a failure or a horrible husband.

This is something she has to do for herself right now.

Detach with love - put your oxygen mask on, and care for your own spiritual and emotional health, so that you can be the husband she deserves, and the man you deserve to be.

This is one of the wisest things I have ever read on this board. I hope you are listening, Pat. {{Pat/Froz}} Love you both.

This reads as though Patriot's being fully "pissed" was expected. Why would you expect him to be so pissed?

Because it *seems* that no matter what he does or doesn't do it doesn't sit well with you. The hooters incident for example. I think he used terribly good judgment on that one.

The last time that he went to lunch with coworkers it wasn't well received because there was *women* in that group. Women in the cars....women at the table possibly. There was going to be women at this lunch also. Not only would there be women coworkers, there was going to be women in scanty attire serving lunch...and let's be real, interacting in a manner to ensure some good tips too.

So, since a POJA wasn't meeting the timeline of needing to depart for this lunch, he opted out. That still wasn't suitable to you because you deemed it to be taking the decision away from you. Now...how terribly confusing would that be?? AND...at the risk of being judgmental, I state that you WOULD have been mad had he gone. There was only 2 options available to him and he was in a damned if he did and it appears damned if he didn't situation.

It is as if you were upset because he took something away for you to be upset about. I've done that before...and when it was pointed out I realized..OMG, that's EXACTLY what I was doing.

You wanna look for things to get mad about because it validates the anger and bitterness you continue to cling to. When he removed that by NOT going, you still got upset...and used the "took my decision-making power" away from me by NOT going.

In all honesty I would have been overjoyed that the man used his head, placed me first and foremost in his thoughts and actions...and he would have been reaping the reward of that. Did he get that?

As far as victimhood...we are only victims so long, and then we become volunteers.

JMHO
committed

A more accurate assessment would be to say that no matter what he does I am not happy.

That is because it isn't all about him. I have much more to heal from than just this. I've already acknowledged that.

And wow, did you make some serious judgments about me regarding the Hooters incident! You even went so far as to tell me how I would or wouldn't have felt. When did you become the expert on my emotions or my motives? You didn't even have the facts correct...you just made assumptions.

The truth of the situation was that there WAS time for a POJA. My concern about the situation had more to do with worrying about behaviors on Patriot's part that led him to have an A in the first place, and I felt fearful because of that.

I was upset because I perceived that he was conflict-avoiding by not discussing it in the first place. He had time...he just waited until the last minute. We were also really trying to practice the POJA concept at the time, and I viewed this as something that really wasn't a huge deal and would have been an issue that may have been good practice for us.

I was appreciative that he made the decision he did out of a desire to protect me, but my concern was that in making the decision without me, he may not have been protecting his OWN needs - another behavior that helped enable the A.

I don't need your permission or approval to feel the way I feel.

Judge away...

Can I ask what the Hooters incident was about?

My wife and I actually had several counselling sessions dedicated to Hooters. In the end I realized Hooters was not the issue it was the point I was trying to get across.

Basically, as I said above...Patriot had an opportunity to go to lunch at Hooters with some fellow Army men to celebrate these two mens reenlistment.

He mentioned this to me a day or two ahead of time and said we could negotiate it.

At the time, we were really discussing and exploring POJA, but hadn't had a real opportunity to practice it.

Patriot is a self-admitted conflict avoider. He basically waited until it was almost time for everyone to leave for the lunch. I think he found himself at a loss for what would be the best decision to make at the last minute, so he did opt not to go. I think he was very frustrated with himself for not knowing what to do.

I use the words "I think" because I can't really speak for him and am trying to give you a full picture as best I can without the story being completely one-sided.

At the last minute, feeling pressured, he opted not to go.

I wasn't angry about the situation, but I was disappointed that an opportunity for us to practice our POJA skills had been lost. This scared me for two reasons:

1. I perceived that he did have time to POJA it. It appeared as though he avoided discussing the topic with me because he perceived it as a conflict.

2. I was concerned that "I won" in his mind. That would mean that he didn't get to do something he wanted to do, and may have been considering me without considering his own needs or what he wanted to do.

Before and during his A, he lied to me about what he wanted. He gave me everything I wanted, and just told me it was what he wanted to do. So he did what he wanted to do behind my back.

I care about what he wants. I wanted to negotiate so we could both win.

That he may have been exhibiting the very same behaviors that he practiced before and during the A made me feel fearful.

I hope that answers your question. Patriot is free to make any corrections to the story.

Hooters was not the issue to me, either.

Ok, I take it Hooters is a place that is somewhat off limits, but considering this was a special occasion it might have been acceptable for him to participate in having lunch with his friends.

And what I heard was there seemed to be reluctance to talk about this and that at the last moment Patriot decided not to go and you felt he didn't give you a chance to work out a POJA. That maybe he needed to have discussed this sooned, but waiting to the last minute didn't give you that option. Now you are concerned he feels you won the arguement and that he is just giving in, which is his past way of dealing with conflict.

Did I get that right?

No corrections needed. Not that I noticed, anyway.

I am not pissed today. Saying that because I was feeling that way the other day. Pissed was a little strong, actually. I find myself in moments of frustration that I can't get out of. Fork in the road. Both options don't seem to work. That is frustrating. Thats how I feel sometimes.

Anyway, I have things I heed to pay attention to. As long as Slushy doesn't feel safe, there will be distance. I will talk more about this later, because work calls.

You got it pretty much right. The funny thing is, I never yelled at him or LB'd him after his decision. All I told him was that it would have been a good opportunity to practice our POJA skills, particularly since it wasn't a real serious issue for me.

After I said that, he was the one who viewed it as a big issue, in feeling like he failed me because he didn't do it "exactly" the way I would have wanted. Just my opinion, but I think his frustration was really more about himself and indecisiveness leading to feeling pressured at the last minute about what to decide and fearing that he would "fail me" somehow.

I really didn't mind if he went to Hooter's. I have never told him that it's a place that is off limits. It's not a strip club, it's a restaurant. Sure, the waitresses may be scantily clad, but I see women just as scantily clad at the grocery store these days!

I fear co-worker relationships more than waitresses. Unless, of course, he starts eating lunch at the same place every day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

My concerns were more about the things you stated above. It felt like we were repeating the same patterns.

Indecisiveness, over analyzing and procratinating can be symptoms of an anxiety disorder. I just want to mention that because the description of the situation above sounds so similar to the ways in which I have handled conflict in the past. I found that I had OCD anxiety and it made me very indecisive and over analyze everything. I had a hard time trying to discuss anything with my wife for fear of her reaction and then I would start analyzing how she might respond in my mind. I would build thinks up some much in my mind that I was overwhelmed before I even talked to her. Now that I'm on medication for the OCD that doesn't happen and I seem to be able to discuss things more openly. It may not even relate to Patriot, but I thought I would at least mention it.

And Froz I see where you are coming from, you want to make sure there is openness. After all, intimacy is being able to be open and honest yet feeling safe and secure in marriage. And if that openess is closing down, there is a fear that somewhere he will need to be open elsewhere with someone.

And for Patriot if he is reluctant about openning up, then continue to foster the communication. It will take the both of you working together.

That's some very good feedback Askme. Thank you.

I never considered Patriot having OCD. I'm also not Patriot, so I can't speak for him, but I do live with the man and this:

I had a hard time trying to discuss anything with my wife for fear of her reaction and then I would start analyzing how she might respond in my mind. I would build thinks up some much in my mind that I was overwhelmed before I even talked to her.

Sounds so on target he could have written it himself!

I do want the openness from him. Honesty and openness is my #1 EN, with conversation as #2, which may explain some things.



Terror is more like it, since this is exactly what happened before. Also, I do want to meet his needs and the things he wants are important to me. I can't accomplish that if he isn't honest or open about what those things are. If what I wanted was to simply control him and have everything my way, why would I be concerned at all with what he wants?

I will admit that I haven't always made it easier for him to do that, particularly during Recovery - allowing emotions, particularly anger and fear to motivate me.

But sometimes, he will be reluctant to be open with me if he thinks I will even have the slightest negative feeling about it. He has said that sometimes it's not the way I will react that he is avoiding as much as it is just the confrontation of the conversation itself.

I don't know how to help with that one, other than just to continue trying not to LB him when he is honest or open. I can't avoid having any emotion about it at all, though.

Froz I'm going to guess that you have the more outward personallity and that Patriot probably tends to be a bit more reserved than yourself. You can tell if I guessed right.

Terror is a strong emotion. You follow it by saying you want to meet his needs. I think you are frustrated. You feel overwhelmed with this feeling of terror, you want to do something to control the terror, not control Patriot, but the emotion, and so you are willing to take a positive action, but you can't because you feel Patriot isn't opening up to you. Which of course if the frustration comes out doesn't help Patriot to open up. You are trying to do the right things, you just can't......

I had to come back and change the way I ended my last sentence....when I said you just can't....I mean YOU just can't...it takes two. But you two have come a long way in communication. Stay with it, the more you do, the more you learn.

Two hurdles to overcome, Patriot needs to open up and learn to expose his feelings more, and if he is having to learn to expose, Froz you need to learn to help him foster his emotions.

Later on, when I have Harley's book with me ... I will plagiarize his grocery store POJA test run he recommends.

I think Pat would like to continue to sacrifice for Froz instead of POJA .... and that is a problem that can be easily fixed WITH the genius Harley grocery store POJA practice ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Have you noticed how far Froz and Pat have come ???

Good work guys!

You didn't guess right...sorry.

I couldn't be more introverted. I'm the quiet, soft-spoken, bookwormy type, who feels out of place in crowds and I get very nervous meeting new people.

Patriot is the outgoing one. He is confident in social situations. He is a natural leader and a "take charge" kind of guy. He is funny, witty and everyone always likes him and feels comfortable around him almost immediately. I think his secret dream is to be a stand-up comic. He LOVES to be the center of attention, captivating everyone with his wit, humor and charm. I have to admit he is almost always successful at it, probably because he really is witty, funny, and charming.

As far as the usage of the word "terror", that comes from my childhood and many, many instances of feeling betrayed or abandoned.



Terror is overwhelming. That is exactly how I feel - terrified. I do try to control it. But, don't be fooled just because I am speaking in a manner that sounds positive today. I have not always been willing to take a positive action. In fact, most often I take negative actions. It's not about Patriot, but again about my childhood. I test his commitment over and over again and use the outcome to validate my feelings of worthlessness and of feeling unlovable. Patriot is the one who has earned the right to feel frustrated - not me.

Pep -

The grocery store POJA sounds like a much better practice scenario than Hooters!

But, I fear that Patriot might feel a little outmatched in the grocery store. I am the master grocery store shopper. I'm completely organized with a prepared list on my Pocket PC, with check marks by the items I have coupons for. I go every week and have a whole system.

When he goes with me, I remind him of the grocery store motto in the parking lot and have him repeat it back to me..."In and out - nobody gets hurt".

I hate grocery shopping and I want to get the heck out of there as quickly as possible.

no ... it's a practice run ... no actual buying takes place ... you'll see....

have fun with it !

the objective is not to buy food, the objective is to practice POJA in a non-threatening environment (unlike the Hooters LOL)

Well, I am the more outgoing one, but sheesh, slushinator... you didn't have to go making it sound like I would put some high-powered CEO out of a job.

Something I wish I had when I was growing up. A more open talking relationship with my parents. I think those skills being built then would help me now in being able to talk about my feelings. I was an introvert at home, because home was a percieved warzone. Not safe for the patriot.

I feel that I have so much on my plate that it is impossible to do anything.

I really need to look into the OCD thing mentioned earlier... although at a first pass, I think I obsess over things in a 'disorder' like fashion, but I don't wash my hands 400 times a day.. hmmm....

You didn't have an environment safe enough to develop those skills. I think you learned the CA thing because, at the time, you NEEDED it. It protected you then. Now you are an adult, and it harms you.



What's on your plate?



Did you relate to Askme's statement the way I thought you would?


Slushinator? You are silly (and 7 days).

I didn't say anything that wasn't true, and you know it. It's okay to admit the things you are good at.

I admitted I was a master grocery shopper!

Patriot you don't have to wash your hands 400 times to have OCD, you can have the obcessive part of OCD without the compulsive part.

Here are some of the things I did:

I would go shopping for something important I would obcess over it by comparing cost, features, etc. I might go in 3 or 4 stores, look at it for days before I would finally purchase the item. My wife on the other hand would walk in, take a look and say that's what I want and walk out with it.

I would tend to get locked up one thought, especially when I got into an arguement and just hang onto that thought.

I didn't like change in midstream. If my wife called with plans for the evening and I got home and she had changed plans it would upset me. I was obcessed that it wasn't what we agreed to.

I would get locked into passed events and couldn't let them go until they were resolved.

All of those are in some way tied into OCD. As my anxiety went up more things would come out. I would start cleaning house. I would find myself starting to buy more things and saving them just in case I needed them. At extreme levels of anxiety my sexual addiction triggered and I felt compelled to act out.

If you want to take a test you can go to http://amenclinics.com/ac/tests/subtype_test1.php and find out if any of the categories apply to you.

Most high-powered CEOs are often ENTJs.