She is asleep now. It has been so long since I have posted..

Things had started looking up, it seemed. She and I were talking a little more about productive things. Productive ideas. Stopping LBs and meeting ENs. Real discussion on it and how to do it. Then a few days passes by and life starts back up with making you busy and next thing you know, neglect pops back up and that is it.

I really have a very difficult time dealing with the 'failing my wife' concept. Or lack thereof. She tells me about her feelings, which she should so I know the radicle truth, and I then take this information and feel sorry for myself. Wallow in a little bit of guilt and tell her I am sorry and that I feel like a failure. And then the productive dialogue stops. She hates it when I call myself a failure. I hate feeling like one.

I told her tonight that sometimes I am mentally beat down and think destructive thoughts about our marriage because she LB's me. It is the truth. After a certain amount of ridicule, it breaks you. From that, she thinks the only reason I am still married to her is because I don't want to be alone. She has seen me be in a bad relationship just to not be alone, she says. If you recall Cinnamon, she was the last very destructive relationship prior to this marriage. Froz knew her and saw some of what I went through because of her. She is convinced that the puppy-dog-like loyalty I had for Cinnamon is all I have for her right now. Kick me all you want, but I will stay not because I love you but because I do not want to be alone.

Sure seems like a ton of bricks to deal with just to not be alone. For as selfish as I seem to be sometimes, I sure am willing to give up my ticket to a life of 'anything I want without regard to anyone' for some reason. Truth is, I didn't have a fraction of the relationship knowledge then that I do know. And I learn more all the time. I was in no way prepared to be in a relationship with Cinnamon, regardless of the fact that she was in worse shape than I was at the time. When Froz and I began our relationship, I was not prepared, knowledge-wise, then either. Now I am prepared enough to operate in most relationship areas without catastrophic results. Or so my maybe naive self thinks. All I can do is be as cognative as I can possible be and try to keep my eyes open to the truth.

I still suck at communication. And I am easy to anger because of the repetition of failure on my part in so many areas. I have a short fuse on so many things, and I know it stresses her out and withdrawls units, but sometimes I just want to lash out because nothing seems to get better. I told her today I think she erases progress. Not unlike a WS erases history, I think a BS can erase the future, if that makes any sense. But as I say that, I think about all the crap the WS has dropped on the BS, and I wonder if I should even speak in the presense of anyone here.

I will never be trustworthy. That is not a statement said out of self-pity. It feels so true. I will never be trustworthy. I will always be doubted, questioned and eye-balled. I caused so many problems in honesty that I wonder if I will ever see trust in the light of day again.

What a depressing situation that I, a grown man... or so I thought, have place my wife and I in. I have lied on purpose, missed how to communicate the truth even when it is EXACTLY what I want to communicate, and destroyed a human being to the point that she is on pills, cries daily and doubts the very worth of her soul.

I wonder why I quantify everything in failure? Hmmmmmm. I just want healing. Progress. Love.

I just want my wife and I want her to know that I want her. I wish she would believe me. She speculates on so many things and formulates opinions based on these 'facts'.

Please deal with what is truly in front of you. Not what is not even in the shadows. And if one is inclined to say they don't trust their own judgment, I understand that. Doesn't absolve you from answering for your actions. Not truly being Satan didn't absolve me from mine....

I have not idea what I am babbling about. I hate this pain I have caused and that I feel. It just never goes away. It is always poking me saying, 'remember me? You have no character'

My wife is miserable and I want to change it. Nothing seems to work. My steadfastness will hold out, but that certainly doesn't make the future feel better...

Patriot ~ I do not think it is fair, nor appropriate, for either of you to define yourself by your past behavior.

Froz believes that she is not worthy of being loved, and so she needs to believe that you 'just don't want to be alone' or that you are the same person that dated Cinnamon, because it promotes and proves to her that she is indeed not worthy.

Just because she says it or thinks it, does not make it true. Her disrespectful judgements should NOT be given power by you, to shape your thoughts.

You are giving Froz far too much power to define who you are and what you think about yourself.

And additionally, holy moley you are just not that powerful. You did NOT cause the mess that your wife is in. She was in it long before she met you. Yes, you certainly made it worse, but you just did not destroy Froz.

It is easy to blame you. You are physically present. It is much harder for her to unravel years of pain and hurts. Your betrayeal certainly complicated things, but it is not the sole source of her pain and anger and her self loathing. It helps no one if you are a willing volunteer to be the target of the anger, hurt and blame that belongs somewhere else.

Oh wow, here we go again. Patriot gets on here and defines himself as a victim. If that was a pre-emptive strike, it was unnecessary. I had no plans to strike. Yesterday we had a conversation about his strong need to "look" like the good guy. I didn't know he had plans to accomplish it by painting me to be the bad guy.

I erase progress? Where is this tremendous progress he speaks of? I didn't read it in his post.

I really don't appreciate either of you making so many judgments about me.

Also, this...


...is not at all what Patriot said.

What he said, verbatim, is "Sometimes I wonder if I am here because I love you or because I just don't want to be alone".

Also, I did not tell him this...


He surmised that one on his own.

Yes Froz, you are both in a power struggle of victimhood.

Exactly what judgements were made about you?

Well, to start with...



I am not struggling for victimhood. I would just like an accurate portrait of last night's conversation. What he said hurt me because it is something I have feared. That doesn't mean I am reverting back to victimhood. It means it hurt my feelings.

This is also a judgment:



I don't "need" to believe that.

This may not be a judgment, but it also isn't true:



I did not blame him last night, nor was he a target. He blamed himself. I am not responsible for how he feels.

His judgments:


It is not "from that". I heard what he said. The actual comment is above.



I also never said that.

The picture he paints of the situation is far from accurate, in my opinion.

I have not defined myself as a victim. No pre-emptive strike. I have not painted you as the bad guy.

"Sometimes I wonder if I am here because I love you or because I just don't want to be alone".

I did say that. To explain, this is merely a statement of self-doubt. I tried to explain that last night, although unsuccessfully. Listening to you tell me what you believe about my intentions wears me down sometimes and makes me doubt. I think that is a completely human response. If I told you everyday that your hair was ugly, I am pretty sure it would not take long for you to believe it.

Telling someone something negative about themselves is dangerous, because they just might believe it someday.

Anyway, not that I mean to have our arguments and discussions play out on a forum like the Springer Show or something, but I really wish you would listen to the positive things I say and understand that the statement I made above was made in a moment of self-doubt, but that I don't believe it to be the gospel.

Why do you get the 'luxury' of doubt and negativity? If I have a moment, even the briefest of one, of doubt, am I not simply being human?

btw, I am really sorry if you think my post dragged you through the mud. It is not at all my intention. I was only wanting to talk about my feelings. I did not mean to blame you for them.

I do not claim to corner the market, though I don't enjoy bearing the label of negativity, even if it is true.

To answer your question, yes it is simply being human. I would just ask to be presented with the truth, however unappealing I may find it. Last night was the first I have heard of these doubts. Your original post was different from what you told me last night, so I find myself struggling to determine what the truth is. I would very much appreciate your openness on the matter.

If it is true that you sometimes believe that you are here because you simply don't want to be alone, I would like to know that so that I know what I have to work with.

Either way, I am not leaving. If that is how you feel, but I have your committment, love can be learned. It isn't necessarily a pre-requisite for marriage. I would just like to know what I am up against.

Either way, you have my love and my commitment.



Your apology is accepted.

I will try to say this without being disrespectful...I like you both very much and can relate to much of what Froz is going through pain, anger and lonliness wise. Remember I was a WS first and then a BS at least twice over. That is my disclaimer. So here goes...

You both have many hurts to heal but you have each other. You love each other and you want to be married to each other. That is huge. As BR said, it will take a long time for Froz to work through the hurts of her lifetime and Pat has hurts and issues to work through too. But look at each other and see what you have!

No matter what my H has done to me and I to him, I love him. I wanted to continue being married and heal the hurts we each caused. He doesn't. He would prefer to not be accountable to anyone or have to be honest with me. I am facing a new life. It may be a better life, I don't know since my crystal ball is broken (LOL). I am broken and hurt and trying so hard to detach and love myself. It is very hard when the person you love doesn't believe you are worth the effort. So be thankful you two that you both believe the other worth the effort and pain of recovery.

{{froz and pat}}

Froz, you ok?

I'm a bit confused, and not feeling that "loving feeling" so much, but I'm okay. Thanks for asking, FF.

How are you?

I'm always confused, you are doing well just to be a bit confused. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Doing ok, thanks. My DD has the flu. Why are you confused?

I guess I am confused about the way things are in my M and how to get things resolved. We seemed to be really making some progress and now we seem stuck.

I'm confused about my role and what I am supposed to be doing, or what I am doing wrong.

For instance, this morning Patriot got angry with me because he asked me if I really do love him. I told him that I haven't been feeling very loving lately. I didn't say it angrily or hatefully. He asked a question and I didn't want to lie.

He asked why I didn't feel very loving. I told him I didn't really know, but that maybe it was unmet needs (isn't that what the principles say?).

He assumed it was Conversation (#2), and he got angry, slammed something, and yelled at me. (It's really #1, Honesty and Openness that's taking the hit, but that may be my Distorted Thinking at work, somewhat...which is another confusion all in itself entirely)

He wanted to know why I didn't say anything about it.

I find this very confusing, because I have said something. I have been saying something.

I don't want to be controlling or demanding to get my needs met, so I let him know and then I wait. I don't want to force him, anyway.

Last night, I asked him what his plans were for the evening. He said he didn't have any plans. So I thought I would focus on my part - meeting his needs. So I met two of his needs.

I am confused. Did I do something wrong? Is there something I could have done that would have been a better way? How far am I supposed to go with letting him know my needs and where is that fine line between asking and demanding?

Back to the Honesty & Openness/Distorted Thinking thing -

Is it lack of openness if he tells me he feels a certain way and then changes it if I get upset? It feels like it is. In working towards changing my Distorted Thinking, I am trying to deal in facts and not feelings.

If someone changes the facts, am I just supposed to roll with it and accept it? What if it is a fact that the person struggles with conflict-avoiding? Then would it not be naive of me to just roll with it and accept it if he changes his story at a moment of conflict?

I know he struggles with facing conflict and I don't want to add fuel to the fire where this is concerned. I know I can't fix it for him, but I want to be as helpful as I can possibly be. By the same token, I want to be able to be honest about how I feel.

If what he tells me hurts me, I would like to be allowed to have feelings about it without him feeling like it's necessary to change it, or more specifically, to change what he initially said to conform to something that wouldn't hurt my feelings or make him feel like "the bad guy".

Okay, so that may be more than just a 'little' confused. Thanks for asking about me, FF. It meant a lot to me. I've been feeling very alone lately and it was nice of you to think of me. I really appreciate that you did.

I see the question and the answer in two completely different spectrums. And maybe that was part of the trigger for his anger, but I also recognize this as a difference in communication styles.

It sounds like Pat was asking a basic question, do you really love me? Most people want the answer, yes. Feelings flow from one minute to the next. If I'm angry at the moment, I don't feel very loving, but I can still love a person. I think he needed the confirmation of being loved.

On the other hand Froz you were in a mood where you weren't feeling very loving and that is what you were trying to express. So you took his question and used it as an opportunity to express your feelings.

Well, honestly, I'm not sure what you are seeing as a trigger for his anger.

I thought he explained what made him angry when he said "Why didn't you tell me". But that's for him to say, not me.



No, I didn't. He initiated the conversation. He asked the question. Actually, I didn't particularly want to express my feelings on the matter, but I felt it would be wrong to not tell him how I honestly felt at the moment, since he did ask.

What specifically about your role confuses you? I believe this was a miscommunication more than anything. Perhpaps in the future you can say "I love you but am not feeling very loving toward you right now. Then explain why. Why would he get angry if it is conversation? Because he is so busy he cannot meed this need and he got defensive? Froz, did you ever get that book I suggested? Safe Haven Marriage ?

Did I do something wrong? Is there something I could have done that would have been a better way? How far am I supposed to go with letting him know my needs and where is that fine line between asking and demanding? Also, am I supposed to remind him all the time? Isn't that demanding?



I don't see the miscommunication. I did say "I'm not feeling very loving". He asked and I didn't really know why, so I guessed, based on what I've learned about loving feelings and EN's.



That's really a question for him but if I had to guess, it would either be because it makes him feel like a failure or because we spent last night meeting his needs and missed the opportunity for meeting mine because he thinks I didn't tell him. I have been telling him. I asked him last night what he wanted to do and he said he didn't have any plans.

Am I supposed to say to that "Oh, you don't have plans. I know...we could meet some of my needs?" I guess that's what I mean by 'my role'. I guess I thought/think it is my job only to let him know. I have let him know. How many times do I have to tell him before it turns into a demand? Is there not to be some initiative on his part? Should he not be free to do what he chooses? I don't want to choose for him, but I don't want him to be angry with me because I didn't choose for him, either.



First of all, I don't think he is that busy. Yes, he works and goes to school. I am fortunate enough to have a flexible schedule, and I schedule my work around his free time. For instance, if I have clients that want to come in the evening, I always make sure it is on a Tuesday or Thursday because those are the evenings he goes to school. I try never to work late on Monday, Wednesday, or Friday because it takes time away from him.

The time we have available together is:

Monday 4:45-bedtime
Tuesday 7:15-bedtime
Wednesday 4:45-bedtime
Thursday 7:15-bedtime
Friday 4:45-bedtime
Saturday varies due to my work schedule, but I usually get off work anywhere from 12:00-4:00
Sunday we have all day together

Also, he has drill one weekend a month so he is gone on Saturday from about 7:00 am to 4:00 pm and the same on Sunday.

It might seem weird that I told you all of that, but I wanted to present you with facts and let you derive your own interpretation from them, since being busy is a matter of anyone's perspective.

I am completely willing and able to build my schedule around his, since mine is more flexible and I can dictate when I work and when I don't.



No, but only because I have three others I am working on right now. Should I drop those and make this one a priority? If you recommend it that highly, I would be willing to.

What other books are you working on? I only ask because I think this book will be helpful for both of you.

I think, froz, that perception about asking and demanding is personal. You may ask Pat what his perception between the two are and how best for you to communicate to him when your needs are not being met. The thread that Pep started called Willard Harley jr. is a smart man is great reading.

See, maybe I'm missing something. All I thought he asked was a question and that was the extent of the conversation. And the extent of the question was, "do you really love me?"

The point I was making is that genuine love for a person is not based on how you feel at a flexible moment in time. Love is constant and if my wife asked me do I really love her even if I am in a bad mood, I should be able to say, YES. Now if I don't love her, then I have a really bad problem that I need to address. So I was trying to say that if the extent of the conversation was just his question, then I think he wanted to hear YES, I LOVE YOU and he was triggered when he didn't hear that.

Now how you felt at the moment is valid. You may not be in a loving mood. But the love for a person is not just based on the feelings of a moment. Just think of a first date, it can be wonderful and great and you can think you are in love and the next date you can find out the guy is a complete and total jerk. You were never in love, hence we have all heard the term puppy love. Or I can be in true love with a person, or love my family, and be really angry at the moment and not feel a bit of love for them at that second, but if something tragic struck right at that very second, I guarantee my love for them would kick in.

So what I was trying to convey is I think Pat wanted to hear that you loved him, but you have feelings that were going on that made you feel unloving at the moment. You wanted to express those feelings and you did. It was two people, two different messsages, needing two different things.

But as I said earlier, I'm always confused too.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The Feeling Good Handbook by David Burns, MD

Love Must Be Tough by Dr. James Dobson

Receiving Love - Transform Your Relationship by Letting Yourself Be Loved by some other two people with initials behind their names.

I understand what you mean about perception being relative. I will ask him tonight.

I will also read the thread you mentioned.

Thank you very much.