Glad you got the book, our wonderful MC gave me her copy. The C we did with her is based on that book. A warning though...it made me cry at times because my H's behavior toward me was so bad then. Of course I didn't know he was actively back in his A either. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I do believe knowledge and desire will drive this for you both and you will succeed. You have the tools and are learning how to use them. Very proud of you both! I know exactly what you mean. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I hope it doesn't make me cry, too.

It makes zero sense to me why someone would bother to go to MC when they are actively participating in an A! HELLOOOOOOO people!!!!!

I'm sorry you were deceived in such a manner, Faithful.

It makes perfect sense to me. They think they are there trying to fix the other person. They think they don't have a problem even in the midst of the affair.

I see what you are saying. I'll change that to...

That kind of sense is not very logical.

In my case, my H thought he could keep us both by doing this.

How very thoughtful of him!

My husband is a strong, kind, caring, patient man. He is gentle with me and he truly listens to me and offers his support in any way he can.

When he gets frustrated with me (and I can be VERY frustrating), he calmly asks for a moment and he sets his defenses down so he can lovingly respond to me.

He gives me almost all of his free time. He doesn't pick and choose the things he wants to do for me. He listens and chooses to do the things that matter the most.

He has made caring for me his highest priority. He makes me feel safe.

He treats me like precious cargo when we go someplace. He keeps a protective hand on my elbow when we walk and he always drops me off at the door because he knows I get cold easily. When he picks me up at the door, he jumps out of the car and runs around to my side to open the door for me.

I love his strength and his gentleness. I remember who he used to be when I first met him and I found his child-like manner endearing, but in place of those qualities is now a very, very strong man whom I admire and can rely upon.

I don't think this is ever really going to get better for me.

I can't forget. I can't move past this. Everything feels tainted. I am not having a bad day. No matter how much I try to maintain a positive attitude, everything ugly is lurking just below the surface.

It still feels as though there is nothing in life to look forward to - as if all the joy has been sucked out of everything.

I feel trapped.

I would never have imagined that I could ever be this unhappy for such a very long time frame. The more time passes, the more it seems like this will go on forever.

I've spent the last couple of days really thinking about my last post and what it is that led me to feel that way.

Let me first preface by saying that I very often feel misunderstood here. There are many factors that probably contribute to that.

One of them is that I am sometimes honest to a fault, meaning that I can sometimes be brutal in my delivery where a little finesse could be in order. My intent is to simply be honest, but the end result is that I wind up being disrespectful.

Another contributing factor may be that sometimes it is very important to Patriot how a situation "looks", which may not always give an accurate portrayal of how things really are. After such an instance, I may respond based on my emotions and the end result of that is that, often times, I appear erratic or unreasonable.

Patriot has been exploring some of his past decisions and the difference between "looking" like the good guy and making choices that reflect actually behaving like the person he wants to be.

There are times when his desire to look like the good guy has painted me out to be the bad guy.

All of that sounds defensive, and maybe it is. I started to backspace twice, for fear of being disrespectful or sounding even more erratic, but I am going to leave it as is because I want to be real.

The truth is I just really hate to be misunderstood.

With that having been said, I write here for myself - to get my feelings out. Sure, I could write this as a Word document, keep it to myself and still accomplish getting my feelings out, but sometimes I get really great feedback that enables me to grow as a person, a wife, a mother, a daughter, and a friend. So I will continue to write for myself and if anyone picks up on something that helps me, I will consider it a double blessing that I was able to both get my feelings out and to learn at the same time. I love multi-tasking.

So, on with the emotional erraticism (ha ha)...

I feel so confused.

I love Patriot very much. Often times, over the course of our relationship, I have not felt very valued by him. There are a lot of times that I still feel that way, based not on past actions, but on current ones.

I have communicated to him the actions that lead to those feelings. Why am I receiving that message in the first place? Is my perception really that warped? Would someone else in the same situation not feel the same way? I feel like I can't even trust my own judgement sometimes, but I know I am not crazy.

For example, one day Patriot was at work. He left something at home that he wanted. He told me as much on the telephone and I said something like, "I'm not busy. I could bring it to you and that way I would get to see you, too."

He didn't want me to bring it to him because he did not want to spend the money on gas. In an attempt to ascertain precisely what we were dealing with, I asked him approximately how much it would cost for me to drive to his work. He said it was about five dollars.

That is an example that is low on the scale of feeling unvalued or unimportant. His affair would probably be the other extreme. There are many examples that fall in between, dating back to the beginning of our relationship.

I did not misunderstand the Five Dollars Incident. I asked him about it and he confirmed. He also said that he wants to show me actions that do make me feel valued. How can that be accomplished if the five dollars really is important to him? I don't want him to hide how he truly feels, but I would like to feel valued, too.

I don't want him to change his response to suit my feelings. I would just like for him to desire to see me more than he desires to save five bucks. But if that is what he wants - it's what he wants.

I have been thinking about why it feels so difficult to move past his affair. What I have arrived at so far is that his affair hurt me very much and that he would risk losing me made me feel very unimportant and unvalued. There are many times still that his actions send me that same message, though to my knowledge he is being faithful.

There have been times when his actions did make me feel valued and during those times, I noticed that the affair mattered much less to me than what I had at the time. Based on that, I have arrived at the conclusion that I don't really care so much HOW we get there, just as long as we DO.

Last week I asked Patriot if he loved me more now than he did before or during the A. He said no. He said he loved me all along.

Today we had a talk and he told me that he did not love me before. I asked him when he began to love me. He said it was shortly after D-Day.

That was big news to me and came as a bit of a shock. We were engaged to be married and he didn't love me? We had been living together for three years and he didn't love me? He said that he did care about me and he liked me, but he was not in love with me. I wondered why he was here. He said it was because I was the logical choice. Logical choice - meaning that I treated him well, doted on him and adored him, took care of him in domestic ways, contributed greatly to his finances, etc...

I feel very deceived. He told me that he loved me. There were times when his actions told me that he didn't. When I asked him about those actions, he told me that I was basically crazy, or that it was my low self-esteem that wouldn't allow me to see that he loved me.

Now we are married and, come to find out, my intuition was correct. I'm not sure what to make of that. I find it very confusing.

Throughout Recovery, Patriot has found it very difficult to be honest with me. There have been many times he has told me, "This is the real truth and I will be honest from now on". Later, that story changes and the honesty starting point begins all over again. That has happened enough times that I have a lot of difficulty believing I am getting the truth. Lying to me and betraying me by having an A for the better part of our unmarried relationship was a big enough obstacle for trust without further lying or deceit during Recovery.

To have him tell me last week that he loved me all along and to then have him tell me today that he didn't begin to love me until right around the time we got married last year felt like the story changing again. It is very confusing, not to mention that it is painful that the man that I have loved with all my heart for the last four years didn't love me back until just recently. Also, it very often doesn't "feel" like he loves me now, so how do I even know he does?

This is so difficult sometimes - most times. I am angry with myself for being so easily duped. I am angry with myself for getting married a month after D-Day. That was not a very wise decision at the time. I have placed myself in quite a predicament. I do want to honor the committment I have made, but I would also like to feel valued and important for more than my domestic and financial contributions. I would like to be valued for who I am, not what I have for someone to take. I realize that walking away isn't necessarily going to make me feel valued and important, but sometimes I think it would be a relief just to STOP feeling unvalued and unimportant.

I'm done rambling.

I sure hope I haven't DJ'd. I was trying really hard not to.

{{{froz}}}, I think it was very brave of Pat to finally be honest with his feelings. I am not patting him on the back for this just pointing out that his trouble with honesty seems to be slowly getting better. Does he have a reason to not trust you with his feelings or has avoidance been his MO his entire life?

If you have not done so, please call the Harleys.

FF,

It's always good to hear from you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, Patriot has been and is making a tremendous effort where honesty is concerned.


That's a tough question for me to answer, as he is the only one who can really say he does or doesn't have a reason NOT to trust me with his feelings.

I will say that when he has shared his feelings with me in the past, I have sometimes been hurt by them and expressed that to him - sometimes constructively, sometimes not so constructively, but either way I try to show him that I accept him and he has said that he feels very accepted by me before.

I do know for a fact that conflict-avoidance has been his MO his entire life, so maybe it has very little to do with me.

I would like the opportunity to be trusted with his true feelings.

Honesty & Openness, which is sometimes difficult for him, ironically happens to be my #1 EN.

That is not a financial decision I can make independently.

I know Froz, I was addressing that to BOTH of you. There is so much hope in your sitch, IMVHO.

Well FF,

Where is this hope you speak of? It isn't as though, like most other couples in Recovery, we have a history of love to fall back on. We don't even really HAVE a history that isn't based on something false. Is this hope based on the idea that he could learn to love me or somehow make it "look" like he does? That somehow seems a little insulting.

The reality is that he used me. I was a single mother in the middle of a crisis (you know...the previous marriage and the crisis with my daughter) and he moved in with me because it was convenient. That is not a DJ. He actually told me that. It benefitted him financially and he had someone to dote on him and eagerly do his laundry and such.

He pretended to love me back for three long years before we married. Now he says that he didn't begin to love me until less than a month before we got married - oddly when he was faced with being abandoned as a result of his actions. Staying in a relationship simply to not be alone is a behavior that is not new to him. How can I be so sure that that isn't the case now - particularly given some of the very rough spots we've had this past year in Recovery?

I have no idea what to believe. I don't like being used - for a warm body, money, clean laundry, etc...

I am actually much more angry with myself for falling for all of that. One would think that with my history in relationships, I would have learned more before now.

Well froz... I understand in many ways what you are saying. My H used me and did not love me for a very long time in our M. It is NOT a good feeling nor does it help ones self esteem. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> However..and again this is just my opinion and only worth the paper it is written so to speak..what I see is Patriot's walls coming down. I see a vulnerabilty in him that wasn't there before. I see caring in him that wasn't there before. Perhaps all these events and the potential of losing YOU have opened his eyes and his heart to his love for you. I get the feeling Pat does not love easily. Is that a justification for lying to you? No. But we all have to start somewhere. Even people in arranged marriages can eventually fall in love. I know you love Pat and now Pat knows he loves you. Isn't that what the whole love bank theory is about? I believe your security will eventually come in knowing that you are loveable. You are valuable. You are a treasure. That is where I see hope.

Perhaps the thought of being alone is his motivator and it really has nothing to do with me at all, other than the fact that it's not so easy to find someone willing to love and accept you through anything you throw at them.

I realize that, even in arranged marriages, two people can fall in love. That isn't the kind of love I thought I had and it definitely isn't what I was presented with when I got married. "I can learn to love you because you love me so much" was never what I wanted.

All I wanted was to be shiny enough to just one person to stand out above all others - not for my housekeeping skills or my cooking, but for who I was inside.

It is not very validating that the value I have to others is as a punching bag, the mother of someone's next victim, and now a convenient domestic person. I'm more than a little beat down after this past year and I am finding it difficult to see the value I have considering that everyone just wants something from me.

Obviously, I'm feeling a little sorry for myself. This just sucks, and it hurts, and I am so mad at myself because I placed myself willingly in this situation when, in looking back, there have been many signs that should have made it obvious I did not mean all that much to him.

I used to ask him why he loved me. He always said "Because you love me so much." Obviously that didn't go over so well with me. All I have done now is condition him to change his responses. That isn't love.

I didn't want the whole "Lab Rat Theory" of taking two perfect strangers and having them meet each others EN's to see if they will eventually fall in love. Besides, I was not a perfect stranger to him. He already knew me and he didn't love me.

sigh...I really wish I could help. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I know you are hurt. I know you are broken. Perhaps that is why I feel an sisterhood of sorts with you because I am too. Froz, I am not sure I would know what healthy love was like if it bit me.

That is funny, in a not-so-funny kind of way. I can sure relate. Just a guess, here, but I don't think it bites - not the healthy version, anyway. But what do I know?

Geez, I just re-read the above posts by me (don't do it). I sure do turn into my very unpleasant alter ego, Negafroz, sometimes. Nobody likes a Negafroz...including me.

I think people much prefer just regular Froz, and perhaps even Slushy.

I am a combo today...half just regular Froz/half Slushy.

Something Faithful Follower said above stood out to me...



Maybe so, FF...maybe so.

I am so proud of him sometimes. It is SO HARD for people to change, yet he works so dilligently at overcoming behavioral patterns he's had throughout his entire life. I truly admire that. I admire that so much more, even, that someone who always makes the right choices in life.

Changing IS hard, and I suspect that he isn't changing for himself. What it looks like is that he is trying to change for me - so he won't hurt me any more, and so he can love me in a way that makes me feel loved the most.

It touches me in a way so deep that it makes me want to cry and it makes me want to kick myself for every single time I was SO HARD on him - in word OR just in thought.

My husband, the giver.

This is not something I have seen from him before. I have seen him give for recognition. I have seen him give to avoid conflict, or even to boost his self-esteem.

This is different.

Do you know what he did???

Remember our 1st Anniversary a few weeks ago? We went to see the movie Pride and Prejudice and ended up distant the rest of the day.

I liked the movie. He didn't understand it.

Now he is going to read the book.

I actually can't think of anything more romantic. Even if he never actually reads it...I don't care. The simple fact that he had the desire speaks to me.

He took several vacation days through Christmas and New Year's. I loved it. I loved seeing him all the time and waking up each day with "what are we going to do together today."

We watched movies, we played games (something we both love), we worked puzzles, we talked...I wonder if that's what it will be like when (or if) we both retire (only 30 or so years away).

He went back to work yesterday. I miss him. Next week he starts school again, and his class schedule is even more time-consuming than last semester. I am afraid of the potential distance that may come with that. It's too hard to get rid of it.

His first day back to work yesterday, he spent making me a booklet of gift certificates. Okay, this does not look like something an individual made. It looks better than something you would buy at a store - way better. This man is definitely not lacking in presentation.

The certificates are good for basically any request. They are all blank, have no expiration date, and have a redemption value not to exceed $00.01 (he has a sense of humor, too).

I love this man. I have always loved him. I used to love him for who he was. It is something entirely new to love him for the way he makes me feel.

Hey Slushy! You made me melt with that quote! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ah, froz what I wouldn't give to have a man try to change for his love of me. Hold on to those times when you feel lonely while he is at school. I think you will need them.