I keep hitting a barrier and I can't seem to push through it. No matter how well things go, it always comes back to this.

I'll probably do a horrible job of explaining myself.


This is probably the greatest reason healing has been difficult for me. The A "took away" my specialness. It gave me the message that I am completely replaceable, and the fact that he often cast me aside, opting for her company instead (while I was home, unaware, cooking his dinner and folding his laundry) made dealing with feeling inferior next to impossible for me. He would rather have been with her than with me - and I was actually NICE then! I was happy and silly and fun - not like now. So, you see, if I were at my best then, and he wanted to be with her more, well...He would probably say that he didn't want to be with her more, but the way I see it, he could have been with me if he'd have preferred it. After all, I was at home waiting for him.

So, he chooses me now? Why doesn't that matter that much to me? I wanted to be important all along.

This is so incredibly painful.

Why does it feel like for as long as I remain with him, I will feel "unspecial"?

I knew I would do a horrible job of explaining. I can't seem to find the right words.

froz - it doesn't matter whether you were at your best or not while your husband was out playing with some OW.

What matters is that HE was not at HIS best while he was doing that.

Does that make sense?

And is he at his "best" now?
Mulan

Thanks for the response, Mulan.



Yeah, that makes sense. I understand what you are saying. But, then why do I still feel so un-special to him? Some may chalk it up to low-self esteem, but it feels like more than that to me.

I obviously had low self-esteem before the A and I did feel special to him.



I'm not sure what you are asking me. Are you asking if he is doing better?

Recovery?

What a myth!

There is no RECOVERY from a year and a half long lie.

There are those who are able to put it behind them and

there are those who try and fail.

I am failing.

I have been told from almost Day 1...stop beating him over the head with his A. He made a mistake.

Okay. I hear you.

It's ridiculous that I still hurt this much???

I was told it was ridiculous from the begininning. When was it EVER okay to hurt this much? I can't think of anything more painful than this. Why am I not allowed to hurt? How long am I allowed to hurt before anyone else decides I'm being ridiculous or exaggerating or beating Patriot over the head with his past?

Poor Patriot.

All he's trying to do is be a better guy.

His intentional "mistake" destroyed me. I live every day with the knowledge of what he did, the images through my mind every time he touches me. A thousand times a day I see or hear something that reminds me of how he wanted her and not me.

Okay, so he wanted her. But he wants me now. Is that supposed to be some sort of consolation? It's not. I don't know WHY he wants me. Marrying me was his chance to "do the right thing". Offering to marry me after his A was his way of making it up to me. "Sorry I hurt you, but I'll marry you now, even though I didn't want you before and then we'll just make the best of things". That's not what I wanted.

I wanted to be his everything. I wanted to be the one he couldn't resist, not the one he chose - for logical reasons.



That is my life. Sure, I chose it. I didn't have to marry him. Know what? When I did, I sure thought that was the end of lies and the last of deceit. I thought it was an end to hurting me. It wasn't.

When he hurts me, I am only "allowed" to calmly state how I feel, lest it be labeled attacking him. And then, I have to "get over" that pain, too. If I hurt too long, it punishes him. I must always be very careful to protect him from my LB's.

Where is my protection? Where has it been this entire time?

So, Recovery is...

I live in the filth he WANTED so badly and then decided it was my responsibility to try to overcome - all while he throws rocks at me to slow my climb.

He lives in the warm sunshine of his Former status. After all - he can't be expected to live with his "mistake" forever, CAN HE????

That's marital Recovery.

Froz, I pulled this quote from Mr.Goodstuff off of Myrta's thread on the recovery board. I think every BS in recovery should read it.

Hey my friend,
I'm sorry you are in a bad spot. I have been so wrapped up with work, I have neglected checking up on someone who means a lot to me.
I'll be praying for you.
You know how to find me.
love ya, girl

Froz...

Can you give specific examples of what you mean by this? And also, can you give specifics of what he must do, if there is anything, to help you to heal? You've said that you don't have enough of the details to heal, and then you've also said that the details would hurt you too much...forgive me for saying so, but that seems a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, wouldn't you agree? Perhaps I am missing some information...I am not trying to be insulting, I'm just trying to understand...

I haven't kept up with your entire thread here, so forgive me if these are "DER" questions <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, but have you ever had LovingAnyway or JustLearning post to you guys? I think that you might gain from both of those posters...Put a shout out to LA, if you haven't interacted with her, she's a really neat lady...

Froz, I think that IC is the way to go for you, and sorry if this offends you, but I think that that counseling needs to encompass far more than the affair...I say this from a truly caring perspective, not to tell you to "get over it"...I just know that there is stuff from before that is coloring your vision of all else in your life, make sense?

Thinking of you guys...

Mrs. W

Yes.

He wanted to Recover together. He said it could be "better than ever". I told him I didn't think I could do it. I told him I didn't think I would get over it. He refused to believe me.

He lied to me - over and over again. I asked him detail questions. He would answer. I would ask him the same question a couple of months later, only to receive a different answer. This happened so many times, I don't even know which questions to ask now. I couldn't sort out what is real in my head now even if I DID have the truth.

Not to mention that lots of time has passed now and he likely wouldn't even remember a lot of the details I had questions about.

Patriot received lots of understanding where this is concerned. "No wonder he doesn't tell her the truth! She gets too upset!"

An odd thing to me is that a lot of the lies he told were actually no better than the truth.

Does he really think it matters to me if he had sex with her 100 times at the same hotel or 100 times at different hotels? One is no less hurtful than the other. So why lie? Just to torture me? Just to confuse me?

There are also things like this:

Patriot was out of town on a business trip. I spoke with him on the telephone before dinnertime. I was uncomfortable and afraid, not just because of the business trip itself, but also because he wanted to go to dinner with two co-workers, one of them female.

He told me it was not that important to him and that if it would put my mind at ease, he would opt out. I felt better. I felt safer.

Until I asked him later what he did for dinner. He went to dinner with the co-workers anyway.

All throughout Recovery he has desired a 'normal life'. No drama.

I did not create this drama. He did. There were no dramatics before the A. So, he goes and creates some drama and then criticizes me because there is conflict???

He hid something from me a few weeks ago. He snooped around on my DD18's computer and found something she wrote, saying that she was pregnant. He knew this information would be very upsetting to me. I was at work when he found it.

When I got home, not only did he NOT tell me about it. He actually pretended everything was fine, so I wouldn't suspect anything was wrong. He acted happy and silly, playing around for a few hours. Then he decided to tell me.

The information turned out to be a silly joke - she wasn't and is not pregnant. Initially, he was angry with HER for starting it all and putting him in a bad position.

His ability to totally act like nothing is wrong to deceive me because he fears an upsetting situation makes me feel terror.

I know that something could happen, or be happening, that could destroy me and I would never, ever be able to suspect a thing.

How am I supposed to believe anything? How am I supposed to be able to distinguish between what is real and what isn't?



I never said that I don't have enough details to heal. I know I didn't say that because I never knew HOW to heal.

I did say that, at this point, I am too afraid to hear the rest of it. I don't want to go back to D-Day.

I wanted him to be honest from the beginning. I wanted him to want to be close to me enough to tear down his wall of secrets on his own.

So, yes. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. For that he illicits sympathy from you? He had a million chances to do it. He chose not to. So now, it is what it is.

I am not angry with him because he doesn't do it. I am angry that he DIDN'T. It is unfair of me to be upset with him that he didn't do it?

Why is the concern so focused on what is fair to him? When has Recovery ever been fair?

It seems it's all about my 'taking one for the team' to protect him. It's all about making it 'safe' for him. Do you know how many times he hurt me and I consoled him, comforted him and offered him understanding? What did that get me? More hurt?

Punishing behavior? WHY? Because I hurt? It punishes him because I hurt?

It's not exactly a picinic for me, either.

I.C. - fine. I am not against it. I have found it very difficult to find a good one, but I will keep trying. It's kind of humiliating in the process to keep repeating the story over and over again, but okay.

Here's the deal. I can't get over it. I have tried. I honestly have.

***Patriot was out of town on a business trip. I spoke with him on the telephone before dinnertime. I was uncomfortable and afraid, not just because of the business trip itself, but also because he wanted to go to dinner with two co-workers, one of them female.

***He told me it was not that important to him and that if it would put my mind at ease, he would opt out. I felt better. I felt safer.

***Until I asked him later what he did for dinner. He went to dinner with the co-workers anyway.***

Nobody can hope to be married to someone who thinks it's fine to keep secrets. Nobody except a hopeless doormat, and you are anything but that.

It sounds to me like this is the heart of the problem - that your husband still chooses to keep secrets and decide *for* you what you need to know and what you don't.

It doesn't matter if he's keeping secrets about something small or something big. He does NOT have the right to keep secrets from his wife. Why not? Because everything he does affects his wife personally and profoundly, and she has the right to decide whether she wants to be part of those things or not. Deliberately keeping her in the dark about these things keeps her utterly powerless to make decisions about her own life.

That's not okay.

And don't tell me you are "protecting" fragile little Froz by deceiving her. I'll call bullsh*t on that right now. People who do this are protecting no one but themselves.

Anyone who decides they have a right to keep secrets from their spouse is NOT being a partner. They are being a tyrant and a dictator. No woman wants to be married to a tyrant and a dictator.

This does not mean Patriot is a bad evil guy. My husband is not a bad evil guy either. But somewhere, probably because of the way he was brought up, my husband got into the habit of using deception, word play, and outright lies to keep people out of the way so he could do what he wanted without anyone bugging him about it. It sounds to me like Patriot does the same thing.

It doesn't matter WHY someone does this. What matters is that it is impossible for ANYONE to have a close and intimate relationship with a person who chooses to be deliberately deceptive. Trust is vital in any sort of physical or emotional intimacy, and there is no greater destroyer of trust than secrets and deception.

Patriot: Here's your Dr. Phil moment for the day. Just be honest, dude. Stop playing word games and being deceptive and misleading and secretive. Stop telling your wife what you think she wants to hear. How's that workin' for ya?

If you're on a business trip and you want to go to dinner with a female coworker, don't keep that a secret from your wife. Tell your wife the truth up front and then let HER decide if she wants to be with a guy who does that or not. Got it?

IT'S NOT YOUR DECISION TO CHOOSE WHAT FROZ GETS TO KNOW AND WHAT SHE DOESN'T.

IT'S HER DECISION TO CHOOSE WHAT KIND OF MAN SHE WANTS TO BE INVOLVED WITH, AND SHE CAN'T MAKE THAT DECISION IF YOU TAKE ALL POWER AWAY FROM HER BY CONSTANT SECRETS AND DECEPTION.

Patriot, dude, keeping secrets is for four-year-olds who are trying to hide what they're doing from mommy. It's also for pussies. Telling the whole truth is for Men. So Man Up and Be Truthful. That's all your wife wants.

Ya wanna flame me, go right ahead. But I've been living for 25 years with a guy who does exactly the same thing. And now I know exactly why Froz is only feeling worse and not better.
Mulan

I second what Mulan said.

This has been an issue from day one.

In his defense, some of these things are things that happened some time ago. The incident regarding my DD18 happened maybe 3-4 weeks ago.

He has been working hard to overcome these things and has made significant progress. He makes mistakes, and they hurt me a lot, but he keeps plugging along and continues to try.

I honestly don't know what the problem is exactly. There was not some new thing that happened these past few days that triggered my feelings as of late.

I don't know what it is. It's very possible that it is just me. I just feel like I can never get over the initial thing itself - that he ever even desired someone else.

It hurts too much and I just can't seem to stomach it. It makes me feel like crap. It makes me feel so worthless.

Froz..

It is nothing new for you to come and rant and then immediately come to his defense..that's pretty much from day one too.

You say you just feel you can never get over it..but my question is and has always been..why do you feel you have to/should?

I believe that there are some people in the world who have to look into the abyss..who have to touch..taste..run their hands along the darkness. I'm one of them.

If I can't even bear to LOOK at the hatefull ugliness how am I supposed to LIVE with it as a constant in my life?

I firmly believe that you would be well advised to have a nice long truthfull look at your own motivations..your own truths..even the ugly ones..and decide with an honest and accurate picture in your mind of who you both are..do you want to be married to this man? Are you willing to do this dance for the rest of your ever?

Pause there..and don't say I want to be BUT..not under these circumstances...and then lose the point. What that really means is..I want the GOOD things..the things I like..but those things come with the rest of the package and you already know that.

The point is..you know the history, you know who he is..you know yourself [right?]..you know whether or not what ACTUALLY exsists as your marriage is good enough..you KNOW what you think about it.

Face

Yourself.

((((Frozen)))) and ((((Patriot))))

Please stop backing down and pussyfooting and apologizing every time you make a stand. It's very, very confusing for all concerned. Did you mean what you said or didn't you???

Noodle is exactly right. Stop apologizing for asking for what you want. You will never get a drop of it that way.

Froz - do you want Patriot to be honest and up front with you at all times?

Or do you want him to "protect" you by deciding what you need to know and what you don't?

This is very important. Nobody can use POJA when one party doesn't know what's going on.

Do you want Radical Honesty from your spouse? It sounds to me like both of you are scared to death of it.

I know you can't answer for him, but girl, this is important - Do You Want Radical Honesty From Your Husband At All Times?
Mulan

P.S. In your initial post today, you seemed to think you were asking for too much.

As someone who has lived for a very long time with a man who chooses to keep secrets, let me tell you something: IMHO, you are not asking for nearly enough.
Mulan

Froz-I understand the "push me-pull me" mentality you have here. On one side, (it sounds like) you're really angry and needing to vent. On the other side, when folks say, "yeah, your situation really sucks," you start to back down.

Don't know much about your childhood, but was it OK to tell mom/dad that you were mad about something, or were you supposed to either "turn the other cheek" or "look at the bright side?" If so, you might be programmed to naturally feel uncomfortable being just plain pissed.

Clearly, you had a very rough start to your M, and you've devoted lots of energy into it. Why? Is it b/c you love patriot more than anything? or is it b/c you don't like to fail? I'm having similar conflicts in my attempts at recovery, so thank you so much for sharing your story with all of us.

I think you really need an honest answer to IANOs Qs..it's a more concise version of my own line of thinking.

{{{froz}}}

Here is some help in demon fighting. I have read what Patriot did, and I agree with the sentiments of those who have posted before me. It was really a childish thing to be dishonest. But see the rest of this. I just want to get you thinking on how to beat down these "negative vibes" and get you working on being joyful. We have posted about this long ago.


Better than ever is a little silly, in my book. It can only get better every day. His refusing to believe is partly faith and probably partly stubborness. Here is your positive spin... He COULD go ahead and do it again, I mean, really, if he is going to go through the pain of dealing with you, he might as well... Is he? No.

Facts are, EVERYONE is capable of causing this pain. Patriot has now done it to you. And he now knows what pain it caused you. There are three types of men you could be married to:

1 - The guy who hasn't done it (but MAY, even unexpectedly, when it really hurts).
2 - The guy who has and has learned from it.
3 - The guy who has and has NOT learned from it, guaranteeing you another A.

That's it. There is no guy and I mean no guy who will NEVER do it. Enough of the right circumstances fall into place, and it is possible for EVERYONE.

The safest guy is #2. Your pain is another reason NOT to. He KNOWS what it does to you now.



Froze, time to let that go. STUPID STUPID STUPID on Pat's part. REALLY stupid. But he is/was bigtime CA at the time. That is HARD to get out of your system. That is a hard demon to beat.

You are never going to get all the details you want. As you said, too much time has passed. AND, I would bet his "fling" just wasn't that meaningful to him at the time. He probably saw it as "something to do" and not some important event. (Which does NOT imply he doesn't think it is unimportant with YOU.)

Forget about them. What do you hope to accomplish at this point? Would be nice for you to have all the loose ends in your mind tied up. Isn't going to happen. So what now? Are you "seeking peace and pursuing it?" You really need to ask yourself at this point what they all REALLY mean. Is there any detail that could possibly come out that would make you quit on him at this point? WARNING - EXTREME EXAMPLE: Say for instance, he brought the OW into the house and had your DS film them... Would that be "it" for you? Make a list of what would be "it" and ask him if anything on the list ocurred. If not, let the rest go.


From who? He should be smacked around for lying. EVERY time.


Conflict avoidance. Pat doesn't strike me as malicious. A yes to any of your "just tos" above implies that. You don't want to go there. You need to actively put thoughts like that out of your head.

It's funny, Froze, how people handle expectations. It seems we never can "force" people in our minds to meet our good expectations, but it is pretty easy to make them fit our bad ones.


Hold his feet to the fire on this one. If that is what happened, then that is WRONG WRONG WRONG. And in no way close to right. You can tell him I said so. And if he wants to argue about it, fine. Have him call me. He gave that stuff up. In fact, a spouse should just not do that. You uncomfortableness is justified.

But this is a CURRENT issue. It is SEPARATE from the A, albeit the conditions that make you feel uncomfortable are a RESULT of the affair. It should not enter in the current discussion any more than "Pat, do you need me to explain WHY that would make me uncomfortable?!??!!"

If he got up on the stupid side of the bed that day, well he did. Decision time for you, Froze. Is that IT now?


Would need to hear his side of this...sorry.


I understand the sentiment. But I am not one of these "tell as soon as possible" folks. There is an OPPORTUNE time to tell somebody distressing news. Just so long as that is NOT used as an excuse to NOT tell.

He may have been waiting for you to "unwind" after work. To clear your head so the two of you could approach a possibly difficult situation rationally. I can't fault him for that. I understand when you say it scares you because it seems that it is easy for him to hide things. Well, that's where YOUR trust comes in. He can't NOT be able to hide things from you. (Really, hide his feelings when professionalism demands it). There are positives and negatives to every personality trait. (Which is what this is). And there are bunches of negatives that go with being unable to contain those feelings. He would be hard pressed to hold down a professional job if he could not do that to some degree.


To the first question - how do you believe anything? It is a choice you make. You choose to believe someone or not believe them. Verification of the situation is a statistical thing, based on what you are supposed to swallow. If my youngest son comes in and says "Dad, I ran 12 miles at recess today!!!" I kind of dismiss that off as exaggeration. When he says he has done his homework, I used to always verify. But he doesn't lie about that, so I don't feel the need to verify any more. You believe by making a CHOICE to. All that verification can do is make you feel more comfortable in your choice. But the belief itself is still a conscious choice.

As to the second, well, if you can verify what he says, then you can distinguish real from not real. If you can't, that's why we have words like "trust" and "faith."

Bottom line, Froze, is this:

You must risk your heart EACH and EVERY time you trust him.

That is NO DIFFERENT than everybody else in every other relationship. It would be no different if God himself picked you a perfect husband.

Now on Patriot's side of things, because of what he has done, he needs to be extra careful to "grow" your trust. No question there. But I am trying to answer YOU and how YOU believe.

Try this, instead of blowing up at him when he does something like that and yelling and screaming, give him a little sarcasm followed by the silent treatment. Something like "Boy, you really tended the garden of trust with THAT one..." Then be real non-chalant. He is CA, remember. Do you want to be right and vindicated, or do you want results?

And before you answer that, remember that most people who enter affairs are making the "feel good" choice to be right and/or vindicated. The results of your daily choices may be different, but is the CHOICE that different? Chose results and seek peace. MUCH greater chances of success long term with that tact.


He should have been honest from the beginning. Absolutely. He PROBABLY wants to be honest about it now. But it is unlikely he can keep everything straight. And you are right. It is what it is.


Goofy question, froze. People hinge all this stuff in life about "fairness." We get that in our heads when we are little and "they" try and make it fair for us. That isn't reality. In fact, fairness has little to do with anything.

Take this to the bank. And this really, personally, scares the he!! out of me when people start talking about "fair" and "unfair" in the way we use these words. What is scary to me is that you can't even begin to use the word "fair" WITHOUT drawing a comparison between the characteristics or merits of two individuals. It really only has bearing in a situation where there is an agreed upon set of rules by all parties and one of them breaches the agreement. Like in a sporting event.

But that isn't life.

Remove Patriot. Remove the kids. Remove your family. Only consider FROZE. Is being upset over a wrong to the extent that it is debilitating the kind of person you want to be? Is that Christlike? Is that like one of your heroes? Elenor Roosevelt or Spiderman or someone like that? Is that the kind of person you want to be? Not someone who doesn't get upset - someone who lets it EAT at them until it ruins them... Is that who you want to be? Screw the circumstances, it is choice time here....

Is that who YOU want to be????

You cannot steer anyone else's ship. You can only ram them, or avoid them. And even then, it is not always your choice. Who does Froze want to be???

Speaking as a Christian, I pretty much dust off good old James 4:7. When I start NOT being the NCWalker who I want to be, I literally stop what I am doing, get alone, and REJECT those feelings with an act of will. And I KEEP doing that until they are gone. And they go. The ONLY time it hasn't worked for me is when I didn't want it bad enough. Dang it. I STEER MY OWN SHIP. I REFUSE to allow the ship to steer me. That is the mindset you need. That is how you get control. And it gets easier with practice.

Who do you want to be? Figure that out, and then BE it.


I agree 100%. Why WOULD anyone be concerned if what you do is FAIR for Patriot? It is pretty simple, really. You make sure you are being the best you can be. For you will answer for that.

Then you make a judgement call. You accept him. Or you don't. He pretty much is what he is. If you are waiting for HUGE STRIDES, stop. Best you can hope for is for him to unlearn some bad habits a few at a time. EVERYTHING ELSE is a blessing. NOT an expectation.


That's a bunch of bull. It's all about trying to exhibit the Fruits of the Spirit. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, self-control, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness.

Or Franklin's 13 virtues to live by. Temperance, Silence, Order, Resolution, Frugality, Industry, Sincerity, Justice, Moderation, Cleanliness, Tranquility, Chastity, Humility.

Or pick a mantra.

It's all about being the best Froze you can be.


More than he deserved.


Yes.

And it also got you the satisfaction that you can look in the mirror, and be happy that you have the personal fortitude to set someone else's needs ahead of your own and operate wholly with concern for another soul.

Your point? Or is that not enough for you? If it isn't, you need to go live by yourself. Because if you EXPECT any more than that, then I expect you will be disappointed a lot.


Not all the time. When we are walking in the fruits (see above) we are generally walking self-lessly. If he is walking strongly in them, I would say yes, it punishes him when you hurt, even if he is not the cause of it. If he isn't (and walking selfishly) then I would doubt it. It probably doesn't bother him very much that you hurt. Works that way for ALL of us. Patriot is no exception.


Did you expect a picnic? Seriously, what did you expect when you started down the forgiveness road? Forget the little, daily ups and downs ... in general, take a hard look at your relationship with him. Are BOTH of you better people in your individual choices AND to each other than you were 6 months ago? A year ago? I'd personally give a lot to be in a relationship that was like that. Regardless of what I had to suffer to "get on that road."

The "affair" mistake about a relationship is the "let's see if THIS one (relationship) will fit..." mentality. That is selfish. That is the root of probably every choice to have an affair.

BOTH of you need to have the servant's heart mentality. If you have that, you have everything.

Stop and think of it this way, Froze. If he became everything you wanted, would you THEN be happy? Doubt it. Because THEN there would be another goal. (There always is). Shift your mindset to one of happiness over the steps that the two of you are taking. My gosh, you do it for your kids, why not your spouse? When DD took her first steps, she wasn't running any marathons then. Why did that make you happy? She frankly was closer to NOT walking than walking. As evidenced by the fact that those first steps were probably two or three then she fell again. And you were ecs-freakin-static, weren't you?

Case in point... Patriot conflict avoids, gets some sense that your daughter might be preggers, and waits a bit to tell you, BUT HE DOES TELL YOU. How is that really different than the daughters first steps? Were you ecs-freaking-static with him?

CHANGE your mindset. Put it in perspective. James 4:7 the feelings that cause this strife in you.

By all means, hang him from the yardarm for going out with the mixed company if it bothered you. I'll lend you the rope. But don't forget, he TOLD. Let him know he done good on that one, too.


What do you mean by "get over it?"

"Feel as if it never happened?" - Not gonna happen.

"Trust him completely?" - Well, you shouldn't anyway. Even if he NEVER had the A. We must protect ourselves. But it is a game of balance. If we protect ourselves TOO much, we will find ourselves alone. A natural ocurrence. Is that what you want?

"Be happy around him?" - Well, word that one a different way. Lets try "Never be unhappy around him." Isn't that the same thing? Is it possible?

Froze. For all you are going through, at least you know your demons. There is something to be said for that. My situation wound up with the relationship ending. Am I free from the demons? Heck no. They are just different.

You have to choose. You and Pat have decided to be a little merchant fleet. And you are sailing together. And the winds are going to blow you on a collision course. And you are going to collide now and again. And you have to think REALLY hard with a clear head. If Pat seems to be spending way too much energy protecting his ship, and not enough protecting yours, well my advice would be sign on with a different fleet. But you have to be REALLY careful when you make that choice. Nobody here can make that one for you. Because if you are wrong, there are a WHOLE lot of things you have to re-learn when you sign on with a different fleet.

My heart goes out to you, it really does. You are really being plagued by demons here. Patriot is only a door. If you closed it, they would get in another way, through another door. What you need to do is work on learning how to beat them. Only then, will they leave you alone.

NCWalker

Froz...

I never said that Patriot had my sympathies...To be honest with you, you both have my empathy...I know that this is NOT an easy road...

I've told you both before that recovery must be worked in tandem...It's not something that either of you should be keeping score on, doing so is a waste of time, happiness & energy...You are either both "all in" or you're not, as you said, it is what it is...


Mrs. W

NCW - that was a fantastic post.