Noodle,



Yeah, I know. You're right. My only explanation for that is that while I know he hurts me and I get angry, I do love him and don't wish to see him hurt.

I was also trying to be fair to him and I didn't want to give the impression that all of these things were things he did last week.



That question threw me for a loop. Why do I feel I have to/should? I guess that was the impression I got here and from others. I guess it seems like the general consensus that those BS's who don't do that are just making their FWS's suffer or beating them over the head with the A - that sort of thing, if that makes any sense.



Right now, yes. Until I have confirmation of whatever it is my gut is telling me (that something is wrong and off kilter), the answer is yes.

For the rest of my ever? No. Maybe that makes me a renter or a freeloader or something - I don't know. When I signed up for Recovery, I didn't know there were going to be more lies and more deceit. THAT I cannot take much more of. From the beginning, lack of honesty was a deal-breaker. Yet, here I still am. Why? Partly because of things others have said - that changing is a process and that sort of thing, which makes me wonder if I wasn't being realistic when I expected complete Radical Honesty from D-Day forward.

Thanks for your words, Noodle. I will further ponder them.


Mulan,



Didn't mean to confuse. I did mean what I said - no question about that. Like I explained to Noodle, I defended him because I didn't want to make it sound like all those things happened in the last few days.



I have also been chastised here and told that I would never get a drop of it by ranting.



Yes, ma'am. More than I could say.



It doesn't "protect" me at all. It protects himself.



Yes, I do. Sure, the truth is hard to hear sometimes. I am not scared to death of it.



Yes. Very much.



I don't think I am asking for too much. I think that others here think I am asking for too much or am too hard on Patriot.

iao -



My Just Plain Pissed Shoes fit just fine. They are well-worn and broken in.

If my parents tried to give me the message it wasn't okay to be angry, they failed. I have no issue with expressing anger.

I have FEAR that MB members will throttle me for expressing it because they have done so in the past. It didn't feel good to me, so I'm a little bit skittish of putting it all out there now.



Why? Good question.

I do it because of the things people have told me here. Things like, "You're either all in or all out."

I do it because I really do want to have a successful marriage.

I want to have a successful marriage with THIS MAN because he has things to offer me that no one else ever has.

I'm not afraid of failure. I do it all the time.



Not true. There have been plenty of days it has gotten worse.


I find this to be odd logic. Even if you are correct, that doesn't mean that there is not a guy who wouldn't do it TO ME.



I'll bet he breathed a sigh of relief when he read that, perhaps thinking I would take your advice and let him off the hook. No go, Mr. Walker.

BULL, if it wasn't meaningful to him! He doesn't remember JACK when it comes to things about me, but he can tell you in vivid detail every sex act they performed and in what order of their first encounter. He can tell you what color bathing suit she wore when she took him to the Bahamas and exactly how good he thought she looked in it. Hardly sounds UN-meaningful to me.



Only because he chose not to afford me that peace of mind, for fear that it would make HIM uncomfortable. He even gave me the excuse that he didn't want to answer my questions because I might ask them for too long.



From lots. Smacked around? Hardly. If he received anything, it was more like a "Tsk, Tsk, Patriot. You'll do better next time, Pal."

Even Patriot himself posted a couple of times, begging for 2X4's. He remains unscathed.

Maybe that's the secret! If you BEG for them, you can escape them. I'll have to think about that.



Maybe his intent is not malicious. Most of the time, it seems as though the pain his actions would cause me has been irrelevant or not considered by him. I almost think that's worse because it means I didn't even matter enough to cross his mind.



Waiting for an opportune time is one thing, NC. Fine that he didn't tell me over the phone, when he immediately came across the information. I was at work. It would likely have interfered with my ability to do my job.

This is different. He chose not to tell me, not out of concern for ME. He was afraid for himself. He withheld the information to protect himself. How do I know?

Because after I got home, he STILL didn't tell me, but instead consciously chose to deceive me by acting happy and like everything was fine "so I wouldn't suspect anything". That is what he told me.



Maybe I should have said - How do I know what is real. I don't want to CHOOSE to believe something that may or may not be the truth. I just want to know what's really there.



Froz wants to be protected by the man who says he loves her.



I did not expect a picnic. I expected honesty, though.
I don't think our marriage is better off than it was 6 months ago. I really don't. We've both done some damage since then.



This is the reason I believe I catch a lot of flak here. Because a lot of BS's didn't get the chance at Recovery. Why doesn't Froz appreciate it and be glad for what she gets?

I had a very long post with a quote or two and some really sharp reponses in it, but at this point, I am just a bit too tired to finish it. Maybe tomorrow when I can focus on it better.

Thanks to the three sauce ladies. It's nice to have friends.

Mulan, I am not going to flame you. I really apologize that I ever did before.

noodle, thanks for taking the time to respond. I appreciate your thoughts as intellectual and something I can stick a fork into, not that everyone else that posts is a bum-idiot.

walker, I will talk to you soon bud.

I guess this is a pointless post, but I suppose it shows that I have read this stuff. Maybe you can believe that I will ponder it as well.

anyway....

[quote} What relevence does general consensus have on your life and your marriage in any case? They are entitled to their opinion..but that doesn't mean you have to agree. [/quote]

My mother always told me that if one person tells you that you have a tail, it can be dismissed. If two or more people tell you, you might ought to turn around and take a look.
I guess I was trying to apply that logic.




It's just a generalized fear that seemingly came out of nowhere - a very strong feeling that something is not right.



I really, really hope not. That would be a very big problem.


I have learned much from the people here at MB. I listen to what others say. From time to time, I even take their advice. I took that specific advice at the time because it made sense to me that learning and growing was a process and that I would need to allow room for mistakes. Maybe I should have walked out the door at the first sign of dishonesty. If that were the case, I doubt we would have even been married for a week.



I appreciate your honesty. I like straight shooters who don't dance around the issue.



I'm not sure what you mean. I'm still the decision-maker in my head. I consider others' opinions, but decisions are made by me.

That's kind of confusing. Which am I? The wimpy doormat or the contrary headstrong one, who can't seem to shut her mouth?

I don't want dark times. I've seen dark times. I've seen more of them than sunny times. I'm sick of living in the dark.

I dunno that I've ever posted to you before, Frozen...but I know your story and I've sent flare prayers up for you and your h.

The above comment is the most telling thing I think you've said in all of the past few posts. Read it again. When it's that bad, it's time to DO SOMETHING!

I'm not saying D...but hon...YOU KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT FOR YOU. I'd never tell you to definately divorce or definately work on it....because you know what you CAN and WILL stand for in your life.

When the scales of good vs. bad tips so far in the negative, and all you can see is that more negative is coming down the pike....what do you do?

I'm so sorry for the pain you're in. I've lived it too....

Listen to your gut, Froz. What is it telling you? {{frozen}}

But WHAT?



I don't know that my gut and I speak the same language.

It sounds like it is telling me that everything may not be as it seems. Is that paranoia? Very possibly. Is it based on something that is really going on? I don't know.

I just know that I got really, really afraid all of a sudden - seemingly out of nowhere - and I reacted to it. I don't know why.

Sounds like a panic attack.

(((((((Frozen)))))))))

What makes you happy F? Start with the small stuff for yourself....FOR YOU! You are important....You're good, you're kind, you've worked so hard......what do you do for YOU?

***Froz wants to be protected by the man who says he loves her.***

Do you think your husband Gets It that the way to protect you is with the MB concept of Radical Honesty?

Do you think he Gets It that keeping secrets from you only protects *him* and *his* friends and coworkers, and leaves *you* twisting in the wind totally unprotected?

Radical Honesty takes courage on everyone's part. He needs to find the courage to be honest with you in all things instead of hiding behind secrets. And you, of course, would need the courage to deal with what you are told no matter what it is.

POJA is one of the best things to help any spouse feel safe. But it is impossible to use POJA when one spouse prefers hide behind secrets instead. You can't POJA something when one of you doesn't even know about it.

IMO, Radical Honesty that takes the place of secrets would help you more than anything. That's what I hear you saying you want.
Mulan

I think he is getting there. He really has made great strides where this is concerned. He has worked really, really hard.

I don't know what is wrong with me the last few days. I don't know why I suddenly feel so afraid.

I suppose I will respond to all of this now.

I wonder what the general concensus is on my honesty... Not good from what I have gathered. What am I dishonest about? Well, shortly after DDay and prior to me becoming quite well versed in and agreeing with MB principles(of which I still have to study, meaning I know I am not finished) I was dishonest about details of the A. I fully admit that after Dday, I did not want to face my mistake. I did not want to talk about it. I did not want to discuss it. I apologize for the hurt that has caused, but I was not at all mature or knowledgeable enough to take that step previously. Ugly as that might be, it is the truth and I won't dance around it. I sugarcoated things. I went silent and focused only on my own shame and not her pain. I was a horrible FWS. All of this is true.

Then a time came when I was strong enough to stand up and say yes I did it. Around that time, froz no longer was interested in hearing it. There have been a few times I have asked to talk about the details to clear things up and I have been told no. Other times I have been told I wanted my secrets, so now I get to keep them and piss off.

I feel like I have been in the situation of 'this is what you can do to help us recover.... but I am not going to let you'. I certainly understand that recapping details is NOT going to be a fun experience and that it is going to hurt frozen. I am not stupid. I do want this marriage to work. But, by all accounts I have read... and I have read a number of them... studied PORH and other things... we HAVE to go through it all to her satisfaction so she feels she has all she needs to know.

I have been willing. But, it seems that not only can I be blamed for my big mistakes in recovery, I can also be blamed for her lack of willingness to talk about these issues now.

Here... how would you handle this issue?

Me: Frozen, can we talk about details.
Frozen: yes.
Me: what are your questions?
Frozen: tell me about the first time you met her in a hotel.
Me: well... detail... detail.... detail....
Frozen: YOU KNOW WHAT? YOU CHOSE HER OVER ME SO WHY DON'T YOU JUST GO TO HER!!! I DON'T WANT YOU ANY MORE! GET AWAY FROM ME!! GO TO ******!!

...where do I go from here? Ignore her and carry on? What? I fabricated this example but I think it is a really good sample of what happens when we talk attempt past honesty.

Possibly this is a really mean thing to do and for that I am sorry, but my marriage is important to me and I want to do ANYTHING I can to make it work.... which means I put it all out there and let her choose.

She has stated that as long as I am honest, there are no deal breakers. It is no secret that I had an affair. It is no secret that affairs are nasty, filthy, vile things. Ok... so what do I do?

Also, what am I supposed to do if I say, I would like to talk about the A and she flat out says no? Talk about it anyway and claim the PORH amendment?

Certainly doesn't seem like care to me. Doesn't a caring, MB like husband consider the spouse before just going off and purging himself?

I understand she is the BS in all of this, but I exist too. This is my marriage too. Is it ok for me to be ridiculed and hated daily? Is it ok for me to try and get shot down... and then treated like I didn't try. Maybe for me it was a stellar try. Who gets to judge HOW my try made ME feel?

The pregnant daughter instance is so much deeper than what has been explained. Lost in the shuffle of "He is a lying [censored]" is the fact that I told her the same day I found out. Not 18 months later. Not weeks later. Same day. Same with the business dinner. It was selfish and a horrible thing to do, but still info she had on the same day. Does that not matter? If it does not, then oh well. I suppose I need to readjust my thinking. And I am willing to dance on my head for this woman if it is what she wants, but I need to know it is not a mistake. So, the prego story goes... I decided to snoop on my step daughter's(being more active in family commitment and parenting) myspace account. hacking it was a joke and then I have access to all she has written. I am reading through and I see that she just found out she is pregnant and that she hopes she doesn't mess the kid up. It was believable. I freaked out. Frozen had this daughter when she was just a little older than the daughter is right now.. so this is a touchy subject already. Then there is the fact that DD is on the verge of graduating high school and will be going off into the world really soon and that comes with challenges already save being pregnant too. It was just a really bad thing. I called frozen twice at work and was DYING to tell her, but I didn't because she was at work and I did not want to incapacitate her in her professional environment. Then I did snooping to find out when was the last period... dropping odd questions to DD about hings trying to get the info I wnated without letting her know I had some really disturbing info on her. Why? She is CLASSIC CA also. Lies often. After about an hour of this crap I was in such a frenzy inside, I didn't know what to do. I felt alone because I was home alone. Frozen was at work. Then, of course, it creeped in that all of this recent potential nightmare would somehow come back on me and get me in trouble. Now, I am much further than frenzy. I am pretty much freaking out. I have no one to talk to, which is typical, because I have no friends that I am really connected with. This being a product of seperating myself from just about everything to be available for my wife. not her fault. Just true. So then I wonder how to break it to her. I imagine that she is under so much stress anyway because of our crappy marriage that this kind of thing is exactly what runs people to suicide. Everyday I hear how horribly sad and hurt she is. How she wishes she was gone. How could I...

So I tried to fathom a way to talk to her about it and not have my current nightmare of her popping that last fuse and losing it. It was really a horrible day for me. I mean terrible. And then she came home and I had nothing figured out. Here is where the mistakes start. I act like everything is ok, because she is highly intune with my emotional visually. She can 'see' when something is wrong with me. Sometimes she 'sees' something and there isn't anything, which is a whole other issue since I am the big liar, nothing I say can assauge intuition... So I did not want her to 'see' this yet because I was not ready. It was an attempt to protect her with a better presentation. It was an attempt to protect me from her wrath, which maybe you think is just really stupid, but I am here to tell you, she is redheaded and I love her to death, but she can fire off words that cut to the bone. Belittle me if you want, but I am a reasoner. I have yet to find a way to reason with her when she is that angry. Not to mention the fact that anytime I might have a valid point, my affair gets brought up and thats the end of that. So... in the end, I just could not hold on to it any more, like it was brimming out of the top of my head, and I rushed to her while she was in the bathroom and said, "I just can't hide this from you anymore...."

My mistakes.
-Telling her I was hiding something from her. There I am trying to come up with some better presentation and THAT is what I end up with? wow... nice.
-Thinking I needed to protect me. I didn't DO anything, yet based on the climate in the household, I was sure this would get me in trouble. Sefl-fulfilling prophecy.
- Not joining her. The correct answer to all of this was, wait until she got home, tell her immediately that I had some very disturbing information about her daughter and that no matter what it was, she and I could work through it as long as we worked together. Join her. Let her now I was on HER side.

I learned. Prior to then I had been really been a non-active stepdad. Another mistake I was trying to correct. What a day.

It made her feel unprotected and unsafe. I understand that. I am so sorry for that. I really was trying and screwed up. The biggest issue was I could hide something from her without her even knowing... act like all was well... just like I did during my affair. Big mistake.

So, that issue and some, not all, things dealing with past honesty make up the all the dishonesty. There have been some emotional issues seen as dishonesty, but I think interpretation is skewed on them. Telling her I was fine with something when I wasn't 100% fine with it, but in truth didn't really care all that much either. Like what's for dinner for example. I might have wanted spaghetti. She is going to make roast. I say ok. Later on she finds out I would have rather had spaghetti and that gets classified as dishonesty. Fact is, I just wanted to eat. Meat or meatsauce and noodles. Whatever.

I admit my mistakes. I admit I make them. I face the fact that I have issues from way back that can potentially hurt her and I. I read the principles, read posts and think some of you are idiots and some of you are brilliant. I participate when I feel I can. I know I hurt her. I know I made this horrible mistake(and it was a horrible mistake... I want nothing to do with the man that made those mistakes anymore).

I certainly do not want 'poor patriot' remarks. I just want understanding. And maybe someone's answer because they have been through the same thing or something like it. Open my eyes, if you think I need it.

if any of this is seen as an attack, please let me know. I have tried to speak in truth and from how I percieve things. Maybe I am really missing the point on something. If so, I want to know. I am so willing to change my thought process because I do not want to continue on with issues.

Recovery is a difficult ordeal. Funny thing is, life does not stop for recovery... so overall, you just do the best you can. maybe you get dragged for a while, but I figure you just keep trying until you get back up.

***Here... how would you handle this issue?

***Me: Frozen, can we talk about details.
Frozen: yes.
Me: what are your questions?
Frozen: tell me about the first time you met her in a hotel.
Me: well... detail... detail.... detail....
Frozen: YOU KNOW WHAT? YOU CHOSE HER OVER ME SO WHY DON'T YOU JUST GO TO HER!!! I DON'T WANT YOU ANY MORE! GET AWAY FROM ME!! GO TO ******!!

Patriot: "I hear how hurt you are. I hear the pain in your voice. I am so sorry I hurt you the way I did. I don't ever want that to happen to you again. YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO BE HURT. I am sure that I would be deeply hurt, too, if this had happened to me. Please let me hold you and try to make you feel better. I am here for you and always will be."

Just a suggestion.
Mulan

the closer one gets to the true intimacy of recovery ... the more nervous one gets

push through your anxiety
about recovery of full intimacy & trust

it's harder for you
... just because of your past

in this regard, you are rather like Finally-Learning's Ghost (whatever she calls herself now)... the closer to intimacy she gets, the more she pushes against it

but do it anyway

know this

the closer you get to your goal ... some survival/vigilence instincts will try to sabotage your recovery

you can do it

Pep

Ok Froz, I'm banking on the above being true...and yet somehow I'm still afraid to give my honest opinion, but I'm gonna do it anyway...please remember, that's all that it is, my opinion-which, btw, does NOT change how much I honestly like you both...

Ok, and Mr. W and I have discussed this at great length...I've said some of this to you before, but Froz, many times I walk on eggshells where you are concerned...so does Mr. W, and I suspect others do as well...I'm just SO afraid that you are going to "flame me" for my honest opinion...I have to believe that Patriot feels the same way to some extent which has been the reason for some of his dishonesty...

BUT PATRIOT, THE CO-WORKER DINNER THING WAS BAD...Mr. W and I said that this looks to us like you didn't really ask her you just told her what you were going to do in the form of a question...I'm sure you can see why this was a BIG NO GO! Dude, on top of everything you were out of town for crying outloud...You are a smart man Forrest...Don't do that EVER again, K? DER!

Ok, and this is as honest as it gets Froz...I'd tell you this if you were my VERY BEST FRIEND...I could not and would not be able to live under these conditions...If what Patriot said in his above post is true and he is making a VALID point and then you throw the affair at him, well NOPE, I couldn't do it...I would have to move on...Sorry to be blunt, but that's my truth...I would still know that my affair was MY CHOSEN MISTAKE, but I also would know that I was truly remorseful, had been reading and posting on MB, had read the Harley books and was trying to the greatest of my abilities to make amends...And most importantly I would KNOW that just because I made that wrong choice did NOT devalue me completely as a person...that I did NOT deserve to continuously suffer based on that mistake, and that I would have to, albeit sadly, preserve what self worth that I had and leave the marriage...I would KNOW that I could not be 100% responsible for someone else's happiness or their misery...

Further, and I'm pretty sure that this has been said here before (so I think that you should look at your tail here-I loved that, btw), but anyway, it is also part of my opinion, so I'm gonna state it FWIW...I may regret doing this...But here goes...You were NOT MARRIED at the time that this infidelity occured...OK, I get that that doesn't change how much it hurts you, I honestly do, Mr. W was repeatedly unfaithful to me when we dated...and some stuff never even came out until AFTER my affair...so I get that, really I do-I've made a concious decision NOT to revisit those painful memories and to move forward from here...BUT, you KNEW before you married him and I submit that on the day that you took your vows to him you were CHOOSING to forgive him(that doesn't mean bury it-just get through it-TOGETHER)...at least that's how it would appear...NOW, I believe that you have to CHOOSE to see how lucky that you really are...Your MARRIAGE has suffered NO INFIDELITY...Your VOWS were NOT BROKEN...CHOOSE to see how lucky you are to be able to apply MB principles in FULL to your marriage...I WISH SO MUCH THAT I COULD GO BACK AND DO THAT...and you CAN, but it is a CHOICE...what will you CHOOSE? Will you CHOOSE happiness? Because, it IS a CHOICE, btw...

There, I've finally said it-to me it's been the elephant in the room...that's all I've got...Again, I REALLY think so much of both of you...I find you both to be so intelligent and funny and if we lived closer I truly believe that we would be friends...Froz, you may not think so after this post, but I submit to you that a true friend will be 100% honest with you, and based on what information that I have this is what I see...honest as I can get...But, true to form, I am a people pleaser, and it will KILL me if you hate me, but I felt that I had to get this out there...I do care, honestly, I do...about both of you...I care about your marriage, and would like to be a friend to it...

Mrs. W

Froz ~ isn't it "Odd" that I checked in here today to update myself on your thread.

I read your posts this morning, and honestly, yeah I've got a spanking to hand you.

You are so not a victim here. Patriot has already made some of the points that I had been planning to make to you all day (needed to get off work first).

I agree 150% with Pep that this whole "fear" of yours is all about your fear of intimacy - Patriot has been wonderful lately hasn't he? You know how I know?

You had to dreg up issues that are months old - the one new issue you brought up was so totally NOT an issue - that its glaringly obvious that Patriot's been a good man to you and it scares you to death.

Anyway, I'm going to post more, but I need to get some dinner for my family.

See ya in a bit.

Ok so, this morning I went back a few pages to update myself on what was going on with you.

Warning: I'm going to be pretty brutal. I hope you read this with the realization that I am hard because I do truely want you to grow to happy joyous and free one day, ok?

First I read this:


It feels that way - because you are still attempting to force, drag, squeeze, coerce your self worth from your husband (where it is not to be found) instead of looking inside of you.

He can not fill that void in your soul--he can not comfort that little girl who was abandoned at birth. The grown woman who is Froz needs to stop ignoring that little girl's cries of fear, hurt and abandonment; stop what she is doing, and wrap her arms around that little one, and tell her that she is good enough to be loved. Tell her that she IS loved.

You are responsible for you, step up and own it Froz.

I am the wonderful, smart, loving, hard working woman that is me, even if my husband cheats on me again and again and again (which he hasn't but am I making my point?) If my self worth was built on what other people thought about me, I'd have committed suicide a long long time ago. In fact I nearly did.


You have given Patriot power over your self worth that he just doesn't have.

Your self-worth is to be found inside you. Did I not tell you months and months ago to start a relationship with YOU and learning to love and respect YOU?

What Patriot does, says, thinks, does not equal TRUTH about who you are - unless you choose to make it your truth.

Patriot is not doing this to you. Patriot has not done this to you. You are doing this to you.


Baloney with cheese on top. That is NOT what has been said to you.

You have been told from Day 1 that his choice to betray you is his.

You have been told from Day 1 that your choice to marry him anyway was yours.

You have been told from Day 1 that your choice to stay in this relationship and recover was yours.

You have been told from Day 1 that recovery is not about being right.

You have been told from Day 1 that his affair did not give you the right to lovebust.

You have been told from Day 1, that your choice to marry him 1 month post D-day, and your desire to recover would require behavior modifications. There is what works, and what does not. Your behavior has been filled with what does not work. When you get called on it by those of us who have been there and done that, you pout and cry "Not fair, look at me, poor me!"


Really. So all of us betrayed spouses told you to just get over it?

Froz, that line of crap may fly elsewhere, but not with me.

You may hurt as long as you wish to (and you have been told this over and over). What you can not do, if you wish to remain married to Patriot, is lovebust and punish him every day of his life.

You do not get a "Lovebust Freely" card with your hurt and pain.


You choose to live every day with that pain and those images. Instead of living in the present, with a faithful man who loves you, you chose to live with the unfaithful fiance from the past.

If this is what your daily experience is while married to him, why are you there? Why on earth do you choose to stay and make both of you miserable?

What is the pay-off Froz? People do not do what does not work, so in some way, this is working for you.

What do you think this is teaching your children?

I can think of 2 lessons they are learning.

1. forgiveness when hurting others is impossible to achieve
2. attempts to repair and redeem oneself should be treated with contempt

But I'm not done yet. Reading on...


He refused to belive you that recovery was impossible so now its all his fault?!?!?!

Lets see. He forced you to try recovery? And you knew all along it would fail (of course its failing, you are good at sabotage) so its all his fault for believing that you were his best choice, his life choice, and that he could be old and happy with you?

Get off the pity pot!


That is NOT what has been said to you and frankly, I'm pretty horrified at your misrepresentation of the months and months of support and help you have been given on these boards.

Your husband is a conflict avoider. He has to relearn and overcome a lifetime of habits that are destructive to relationships. He is not perfect and he makes mistakes. Your job as his wife is to avoid enabling his bad behavior.

Everytime you lovebust him as his reward for honesty - you enable his conflict avoidance tendencies.

Your job as his wife is NOT to punish him for his bad behaivor. Your job is NOT to mete out justice and consequences, you are not his judge, jailor or his God.

Your job as your own best friend is to decide what you will live with and draw boundaries.

Yours is not the responsiblity to remake others to your liking.

Bringing up the lunch issue from months ago was a low blow.

He did something wrong. He actually did come clean the same day.

The three R's have been very present. (responsiblity, remorse and reparation). There has never been a repeat. (or I'm sure you would not have had to go back months to find offenses). You don't get to beat him up over this, I'm sorry. The way you "spun" this post, it sounds like he's a pretty slippery guy living in the shadows of dishonesty on the edge of infidelity every day.

You certainly got a few people who don't know you or your story as well as I do to chastise him a bit. Did that make you feel better? Does vengence and revenge make you into someone you like?

You can choose to withhold forgiveness. That's your right.

He can choose to remove himself from abuse. That's his right.


This totall crap Froz and you know it. I didn't need to read Patriot's self-defense post to know exactly what was going through his mind.

His CA is his form of protection. Just like your Rage is yours.

His CA was screaming at him to protect himself.

He won that battle with himself, at the end of the day, he chose YOU and YOUR DAUGHTERS SAFETY over his own.

And he's paying for it isn't he?

I am horrified that you are castigating the man who is taking proactive steps to protect your daughter from harm (snooping on myspace) and you are acting as if HE IS THE PROBLEM.

WHY IS YOUR DAUGHTER ON MYSPACE POSTING AND YOU DONT KNOW?

Why not deal with that instead of why he "hid and lied" to you for a whole 4 or 5 hours while trying to figure out how to approach you without a nuculear meltdown?

THIS man is loving your daughter like the real father she does not have. Instead your focus is on a few hours while he dealt with his own shock and fear.

INCREDIBLY self centered on your part dont you think?


Crap, crap and crap.

You chose to be his wife. Now stand up and act like one instead of a whiny child.

Now, its time to grow up Froz, now or never.

this ought to be interesting.....

note to Froz

whining & lovebusting are not part of recovery

BRB

OK ~~~> THIS juicy stuff comes from a post by HurtingDeeply on a recovery thread....

[color:"red"] Just remember the 4 parts of the MB methodology:

1. The Rule of Protection (no lovebusters).
2. The Rule of Care (meeting EN’s).
3. The Rule of Honesty (complete, using POJA to negotiate)
4. The Rule of Time (15 hours/week together time)

[/color]

my comment about this was:

"this uncomplicated recipe really does make some nice soul food"


so here's your recipe Froz

I guarantee

in case you cannot hear me ... I'll yell...

I GUARANTEE

if you both consistently live by the 4 rules of marriage in 6 months from now you will be the happiest you have ever been in your life.

if either you decide to not live by these rules because ... then divorce each other ...don't kill each other's love and spirit inch by inch with marital sadism

Pep

Mulan, that really does sound nice.


Pep,

You have an uncanny ability to see right into me. Am I someone you used to know? You told me once a long time ago, if I remember correctly, that I remind you of someone.

There are three MB members that I hate to disappoint and whose approval, when I receive it, is something of value to me.

You are one. BrambleRose and Gimble are the others.

The things you say make me feel angry sometimes. Sometimes the things you say make me laugh. Sometimes the things you say make me feel proud. Sometimes the things you say make me feel special.

Today was my most favorite of all.

What you said made me feel understood, comforted, encouraged, and nurtured.

I needed it so much.

Thank you.


I want to address Mrs. Wondering and BrambleRose, but I am out of steam right now and want to give your posts the attention they deserve.

Ok.



Point conceded. I have no idea how to do it another way.



Also conceded.



Even if I don't LB him, just the fact that I hurt punishes him.



I don't CHOOSE it. It just doesn't go away.



Because people said that you can heal from an A. I stay because I hope it gets better.



I have no idea what it is teaching my children because they don't know about the A. Sure, I know they're not stupid, and they must sense something, but they don't know why. Also, we don't argue in front of them.



Of course he only tells you the bad things. If you think that is how I react all the time, you have the wrong impression.

He makes me sound like some kind of psycho red-headed lunatic, rollin pin in tow. If I'm really like that, why do you suppose HE stays? What's HIS payoff?



I was asked for examples.

I am so sick of hearing how he did something wrong, but I should not be hurt, but grateful it wasn't worse.

I don't see anyone around here telling him "At least she stopped LB'ing you before the end of the day"!

That is so invalidating.



This is EVEN MORE invalidating. You called it crap! It shouldn't hurt me? It shouldn't hurt me because he's trying to protect me?

I never had a problem at all, and appreciate, that he was checking up on her. That isn't MY PROBLEM.

MY PROBLEM is that for several hours after I got home, he INTENTIONALLY DECEIVED me...on PURPOSE he acted like everything was wonderful to keep me from suspecting that something was wrong. He hid information from me. He hid his feelings from me. He let me think that everything was safe and fine and there wasn't anything out there to get me and then he slammed me with it when I was least expecting of it and unprotected.

I get so sick of everyone jumping to his defense and invalidating my feelings. Like I have no right to hurt over that. If I do have the right, they want to tell me how much hurt is appropriate and for how long, too.

Sure, you may say that I have the right to hurt, but not to LB him.

GUESS WHAT?

I didn't.

I did NOT LB him that time.

I stated how I felt and I thanked him for his apology.

Now, let's say I HAD LB'd him for several hours. When he was hurt by it, would you tell him - "she stopped LB'ing you in the SAME DAY!"

I doubt it.



I did know and I read it periodically. This information was not ON her Myspace. It was in the mailbox portion of it. I do not have the password.

Also, she is 18 and moving soon. I will need to realize healthy boundaries and the difference between parenting my child and parenting my adult child and what is concern and protection and what is intrusive and invading her privacy.

I do not at all disagree with what Patriot did. I am appreciate of it, in fact. After all, right now she does still live in our house.


Sometimes it feels like Patriot can do very little wrong in others' eyes. If HE does, it seems understandable and justified.

This sounds like blaming me for his dishonesty, or at the very least telling him it's understandable.



He has the choice to leave.



Sorry. I don't see it that way. We lived together - shared a life, a home, finances and had made promises to each other. The only thing he didn't break was a promise he made to God.

He made the same promises to me long before we ever married and it hurt just as badly when he betrayed them, whether we were married or not.

I am glad that he didn't also break a promise to God in the process, but the fact that he didn't doesn't LESSEN my pain, it only keeps it from being greater.

I am not angry with you. I'm sorry if it's difficult to understand. You have a right to your opinion and I thank you for being honest with me about it.