Fearing, yet again I will make clear my lack of intelligence, can you explain this remark too?

You regret having an affair. This regret does not change your basic nature or proclivities.


Or… maybe… I am trying to get to a better me the only way I know how. Again, I am wondering how this is manipulative.

Is admission of wrong a bad thing? Of course not. Can it be used manipulatively? Absolutely. I don't see what appeasement of the crowd has to do with getting to a better you. I think it has more to do with protecting your investments in the crowd. Protecting your reputation.

My question in the face of such swift and absolute certainty that you took a wrong turn would be..did you know before hand? I'll bet that more often than not you had a clue. It would make me doubt your sincerity honestly..but that has ever been the case for me with the forgiveness and not permission mindset..my own personal bias.

I do think that people with your particular set of skills can begin to count on their ability to dodge the bullet. After all..you have a better than average ability to predict what needs to come from you..in order to achieve desired outcome. What people need to see from you. It can be a form of cake eating if taken to an extreme..which I'm not suggesting in your situation as it currently stands..but I'll bet it did play a role during your A. Again..what Frozen will *feel* is the familiarity of the dynamic..she can not identify personally with the trait.

Is it a requirement that I get beating on for a prescribed amount of time before the ‘teach patriot’ portion of the discussion can begin?

Nope, and the fact that you see the formula lends more weight for me that I'm not completely barking up the wrong tree.

In my home, Froz thinks that due to my charm or other attribute, people just like me. And because she ‘puts it all out there’ she is chastised.

As I have said..she doesn't have these skills.

Now, I empathize with her totally because I have been places in my life where I did not feel accepted or liked. I have sometimes asked and begged to get hit because I wanted her to feel better that it was not her getting hit… but the truth is I STILL wanted to learn something and I trust in my ability to brush things off if I don’t like the way they were said to me. Possibly an odd form of protection for her, but I saw it as protection nonetheless. Getting the focus on me for a moment so she could take a beating breather. BUT… the underlying idea for me was STILL to learn and grow… and if I could remove the pain of 2X4s from her for a moment… bonus. So two things here… I think the latter is clear but the former might not be.

I disagree with this sentiment. I believe that in "saving" Frozen by stepping in and taking the reigns you are actually invalidating her enormously. She is a big girl and can defend her own assertions..or make apology as she sees fit. Trying to reduce her struggle makes her less than you..makes her feel weak..and vulnerable. Just the opposite of what would help her to be able to say YES or NO to the marriage. I think that your CA extends to those around you. I think you can't stand to watch her suffer and struggle and are in essence trying to get her to the end zone for your OWN relief.

Is it wrong to admit YES! I am WRONG!!! If I truly FEEL like I was wrong? I don’t make it a habit to go around and take blame that is not mine…regardless of popular opinion. One of the reasons I am bad at validation sometimes is because if I FEEL you are wrong, I just can’t back you up. For those of you that think I am the most dishonest person you know… that ought to sound odd. I just can not stand up and say YOU ARE SO RIGHT!!!! when I feel you aren’t. I am learning that frozen’s feelings are real TO HER, but it is a hard step actually, because I want so badly to say THAT IS NOT HOW I SEE IT first, instead of telling her that I understand her feelings are real to her, and that I imagine it feels such and such and THEN bringing my opinion into it.

You and Frozen may have a very hard time seeing things from each others perspective because you just process information differently. You could look at the same scenario and pick out different aspects of it as being the important ones. The point is..you don't have to agree..you just have to respect.




It is a lie to say I have not done this in my life. I, however, do NOT think it is a pattern. I don’t do this by default. If frozen thinks I am wrong on this statement then I need to hear it from her and then I am VERY willing to correct that. Currently, I don’t think it is default behavior.

I did not mean to imply a pattern as in consistent behavior from you..I worded that badly..what I mean to convey is that because one end of the stick is firmly in your grasp..the other end is very easy to slide down to.


How have I shown I have good people skills?

Er..yeah.

Just a curious question. I agree with the idea though because a lawyer that lies all day probably has a hard time NOT doing it at home at night. But I think that an extreme case. Can one not be just nice to people and it not be seen as CA, or fake, or a lie?

There is nothing nice about rearranging things to your liking or to your benefit. Tell me..when you see Frozen post a rant..why do you feel the need to post your defense? Especially if doing so further agitates her? Do you feel nervous with the loss of control..someone might give her advice you don't like? Some anonymous message board geek might think less of you? What?

I've told you before that I get the feeling control is very important to you. I really think your near compulsion to step in has cost you greatly. That choice point you mentioned with Frozen on Dday? That choice never happened. Here you are years later..still in that space and trying to push past without having taken that step. You so want this marriage recovery to be a given..I understand that..but until Frozen takes back those reigns she will be stuck and fearfull ever more resentfull because she will feel she is in the marriage out of weakness and will not be able to find her strength and she will hate YOU because she feels that way. She has her own row to hoe and the sooner the better.

The truth is I am willing to listen to opinions and make intelligent choices about those opinions. Your time will not be wasted, I believe. If you point something out and I, being open to any idea and have been for a long time, see it as valid, I will certainly give it the consideration it deserves.

I do want to learn. I do want to grow. And I do want THIS marriage.

Thanks for your time… and I kind of apologize for this being quite long…. [/quote]

Noodle,
Going back thru your string of 5-6 posts on the subject here, in the beginning we seem to agree that waiting is not going to get the job done here. Sitting around for the Big Bang is not going to make it materialize when that very Big Bang requires the waiters efforts and input.






But it sure would be nice if there was an AHA! moment. Then everyone could be happy and satisfied.



And I will state again, there has been no discussion about this very standard in my home. If an AHA! moment was required, it would have been really good info to have in the beginning.


If is both working together does that imply a big change will be noticed? Again… if an AHA! is required for recovery, then it needs to be negotiated for. Just like anything else. That is my stand on it. If I don’t magically come up with something she wants but never asked for…HOW can I be held accountable for that failure… like “you should have known” . Fact is, I didn’t know.



THIS is a really big statement and something I think is hindering us currently. Big time. She does not think she can survive another blow. She has told me this. More on this later…. As I am starting to get a little fired up over it. Kind of a rough morning anyway.


How did you make this step when all the while you could simply blame him for even putting you there? How did you overcome the instinct to blame him for victimizing you?

Well.. maybe no one could help you overcome it and you just had to keep doing whatever on your own… I am still curious about answers to the questions just above here.



Perfect sense, actually. The reality of it is if she sees the tool, I get a punishment for it. If I use the tool, I get a punishment for it. One of these situations is just and right… and one is not. And frankly, it is tiresome to keep being punished for simply having a tool. Everyone has the capability to murder. Everyone. If you think you don’t, you are lying to yourself and I want to be no where near you. Given that, simply being able to murder does not give just cause to lock you up or even ridicule and castigation. Think Minority Report. Sure.. Tom Cruise movie… blah blah… but the idea of the entire picture was punishment prior to proof. Just, really, for having the tool.
I have an agenda? Pardon my GASP but I align that word with politicians. What is my agenda? Is an agenda something as innocuous as I wish to be married to frozen1229 so I mold and manipulate the environment to effect that goal? Even mold and manipulate have poor connotations to me. Molding clay is beautiful and art… but molding your environment sounds covert and double-sided. What is my perceived agenda? I want a real recovery and f having an agenda is slowing that down… then I want to try something else.


1. To move, arrange, operate, or control by the hands or by mechanical means, especially in a skillful manner: She manipulated the lights to get just the effect she wanted.
2. To influence or manage shrewdly or deviously: He manipulated public opinion in his favor.
3. To tamper with or falsify for personal gain: tried to manipulate stock prices.
4. Medicine. To handle and move in an examination or for therapeutic purposes: manipulate a joint; manipulate the position of a fetus during delivery.
I simply looked it up and as I had guessed, it is about half and half. Of 4 definitions, there are 2 good and 2 bad. Maybe 2 good, 1 either way and 1 bad. It still has a negative connotation to me. To manipulate… I manipulated her. I just don’t like that way it sounds. I guess maybe I have done it, but I am unsure how. I did not have some plan for this. I just want to have a life that is not crap.

100% agree. The method freaked her out. I wish I would have done better. I did not. I still think there is more to be seen about the incident as a whole, but if the FOCUS is me and how I handled it, then so be it.

I may have an advantage is certain areas, but the recovery one, I do not. Not being reactive has cause numerous fights. Not being reactive has made it look like I did not care. I am unsure how to change this specific facet of me.


I have no idea how to deal with this one. I see it as an issue, but what do I do?


Sure, but if I regret and make changes, then doesn’t this lessen my propensity to do such harm again? Is safety not found in that? Is it even possible for me to change enough or do enough to make anyone comfortable that I won’t do this again? I imagine not… we are a society of ‘once a something always a something’. Murderers will ALWAYS be murderers. Rapists will ALWAYS be rapists. And cheaters will ALWAYS be cheaters. I foresee a time that once I have ‘paid my debt to society’ that I will still be discriminated against, in some fashion, just like the majority of folks who have committed crimes. I am sure no one here would want to own such an accusation from a lowly person like myself, but that is bunk.


First.. I had to laugh at protecting my reputation. How in the ****** do I even have one here that isn’t tainted beyond belief? I am a big fat cheater to all the BSs here.
Did I know before hand? Well that depends on the situation. During recovery, it has seemed that I learn very quickly after the fact. I do something. Froz has a violent reaction to it. I figure out really quickly that I should not have done that. Are there other times you are talking about? Like just before and during my A? Well, yes I knew I was doing something wrong. The degree of damage and pain and suffering that would ensue?? I had no effing idea. None. For all the BSs out there that think we stupid idiot WSs KNOW what we are doing and what the consequences WILL be are fooling themselves. Sure, I knew I was doing something wrong. That the damage and pain would be like WHAT I AM LIVING RIGHT NOW? No. no clue. Not once.

There is just much more to this specific topic than I cover here. Or you for that matter. That said, ok.. I agree that I have skills as you describe. What now? I feel like this is so doomed and I might as well start getting used to the idea. That recovery is a myth. Everyday I continue to make a mistake or to, in her terms. She wants to spend time with me, I want to do the yard work… so therefore I don’t want her. Just like when I was in the A. Ugh… what the heck do I do?



The formula? You don’t have to be the Head Waitress at IHOP to see a healthy pattern for responding to errors. Sometimes I am confused if you are pointing out something as an error… or just something to watch. Or just a thing to point out. And… I must admit that I have a mindset right this minute that is not helping. I need to be getting things done around the house, I feel behind, and yet… here I am. Typing away on something that in the end will mean what? What will happen here? What is to be achieved? I mean I wonder how many people come to MB for support and in a short amount of time it is just a Springer Addiction.

Well… the truth is I invalidate her all the time, so I am sure you are right. What do I do to fix this?


Sounds to me like accept the differences people inherently have. I know this is something she and I need to work on.



Not DO I. How. What are they.



Why do I defend her? I live with her. I SEE her reactions. It tears my heart out to see advice given to her that makes her upset and cry. I already believe she is mere inches away from psychotic behavior due to a meltdown(which could possibly be because I ‘see’ her reactions and think ‘holy sh1t she is freaking out here.. shes going to blow a gasket) so I try to step in and buttress her. What else am I supposed to do? It does not seem to be a husbandly action to say, You got yourself into this, now get yourself out. I will concede that I have not helped recovery with this tactic, but what was I supposed to do? Just sit while she cries? I am a fixer. I want to fix things. Which, come to find out in my marriage and on this board in most cases, being a fixer is really a very bad hindrance to recovery and a borderline character flaw.

This is emotionally draining me right now and the day is not even half over. Frankly, the whole morning up to now has not been great. We still have our same problems and our same wrong solutions. Today, nothing is getting better.

I certainly think I picked the wrong point in my life to stop smoking.

I haven't read through all of the posts here...only a bit about the AHA moments...My wish? My hope? My prayer for Frozen is that she would have an AHA moment in the form of KNOWING with all her heart and soul that she is, was and always will be infinitely better than the OW...Patriot KNOWS that...I so want Frozen to KNOW that...Heck, even I KNOW that's true...

Prayers Guys...Still thinking of you two...

Mrs. W

Okay. This makes it clearer for me.



Then why does it seem like what he does or could do when he feels this way is/can become my problem?



And then what? They all lived happily ever after?

What am I supposed to do when it hurts the next time?
What am I supposed to do when my head is filled with filthy images, discomfort and hopelessness?


Maybe I did this in the beginning. I don't see how I am doing it now.



We are either loving and cheerful or just quiet and polite in front of them.

I am quite sure they sense when there is tension.




I didn't make an accusation. I said "if".



Yet, I sure got the impression that you said, with regards to Patriot, it is made better or worse by the amount of time...as in, "at least he told you in the same day."



I know I do. I don't have anything to hide from you. What would that accomplish? I just meant that because when he posts, it is generally reporting what I did wrong, it can give the impression that I pretty much walk around LB'ing him most of the time. Maybe that's what he thinks.



I guess I was talking to him.



While he can sure do things that make that more difficult sometimes, I know you are right.

I have no idea how to do that. I never have. It's much harder now and feels impossible to me most of the time.

Joyous, happy, free?

Let me change the above to ALL of the time. That feels impossible ALL of the time.

I've tried to follow others' suggestions, "Find something you enjoy doing", etc...

Check!

None of it fills the hole. It feels like my soul is dead and I'm just finding things to pass the time until life is over.



Maybe it is.

Still hurts and terrifies me when he does something to make me feel unsafe.

My scary parts? Which parts of me are NOT scary???

I think Noodle mentioned something about those, but referred to them as "dark". I don't know if the two of you are talking about the same thing or not, but I'm not completely clear on the definition.



Never repeated the action? Yes, he has. Most of the things he does are patterns. That they are does make it hurt more for me. It hurts a whole lot worse to be repeatedly punched in the same spot than it does to be punched in various places, where you might have time to recover before the next blow.

I suspect that might be irrelevant to you. I don't mean that sarcastically, just that I hear you when you say you are talking to me about me, not necessarily about him.

Matters to me, though.


And by the same token, every time he lovebusts me (a product of his conflict-avoidance tendencies), it enables my fear - the reaction to it being lovebusting to him.



I don't see it that way.

YOU see the white flag. I know from experience that the white flag means that it is just the break between times that he will hurt me - not just any random place, but those places in me that are the MOST vulnerable.

Others just see the white flag. My Patriot - ever the good guy.

Others see me react when I hurt.

"When will she ever get over this?"
"Can't she just stop griping at him, already?
"He made a mistake, and she's going to make him pay for it forever. That's not fair. He's doing all he can."

I feel that way too, sometimes...until the next time he hurts me.

I'm not making him pay for that one giant wound he inflicted.

I'm reacting to having my giant wound (on top of the wounds that I already had before I met him) continually, pin-pricked by him on a regular basis.



How do you suppose I got that way? My entire life I've been told I didn't have a right to feel the way I felt. I shouldn't want the things I want. I was wrong just to BE who I was, unless it aligned with who everyone else in my family was (which it rarely ever did).

Is it so wrong for it to feel precious to me when I receive validation or understanding? It isn't a requirement that they tell me my feelings, actions or statements are correct, but isn't it possible to understand why I have them? Isn't there SOMEONE out there who might feel the same in the same circumstances?

Is it wrong to have respect and admiration for certain people and for it to feel good when one of those people tells me I did a good job with something or even just offers me encouragement?

I honestly didn't mean to offend anyone, and Pepperband certainly made it clear she didn't view it as a compliment. You can bet I won't be making that mistake again with her. Ouch!

With regards to the incident with my daughter...



Yes, he did. He told me he intentionally tried to deceive me.



...and this is why. I understand that is why. It doesn't make it any less hurtful that he used his coping mechanisms to poke my wounds any less than it would hurt him if I use my coping mechanisms to react to him as a result of a situation.

Yet, it sounds like he is receiving accolades for it.


But it sounds like you are measuring it by how many hours he was deceitful.


I know that. How hard is it to figure out that the point at which you should tell is the point when you start having to be deceitful with someone SPECIFICALLY so they will NOT figure out the truth?

What you don't know about the situation is that my very first response was to address my daughter and take care of that end of things.

My second response was to reassure Patriot, because I knew he was battling his own demons and fears. I spent that entire night comforting and reassuring HIM.

My third was to be hurt, because he deceived me again in order to protect himself.



I want him to stop doing it. "I'm sorry" loses some of it's meaning after a while.



I think that is wrong to say to anyone.



I would say to you...

BrambleRose, if I hear you correctly, you are telling me that you feel safe standing where you are? I can see how you would think about it that way and how that makes sense to you. Every time you move from the spot you're in, you get hit by oncoming traffic? Oh, well I can imagine that WOULD be a scary feeling!




I don't have a need to be right. I don't have a need for Patriot to be wrong.

I am frustrated because everyone seems to understand why Patriot feels the way he does and receives empathy for his feelings, actions and position, while I keep getting the message that my feelings are irrational and don't match reality.



I don't. I feel that Recovery is impossible if we each continue to use the same coping skills we've used throughout our lives.

Coincidentally (or not), the behaviors we each use in employing these coping skills are precisely what the other fears the very most and what hurts the deepest.



Not true, and I can back it up.

I've already explained to you what I want.

What bothers me is that he keeps GETTING what I desperately want.

If what I wanted was for him to just "lose" and for everyone to just thrash him at every turn, why would I defend him at the mere sight of it?


I understand that.

I just want his protection in return - not what anyone else tells me SHOULD make me feel protected, but what actually does make me feel protected.

THAT is what I want on my own terms.

I'm interested in any information regarding Personal Recovery that anyone may be so kind as to share.

Noodle (if you are reading),

I have been thinking a lot the past few days about things you said to me and to Patriot. I identify with a lot of the things you said to me and to Patriot about me and I recognize a lot of the things you described about Patriot.

Somewhere in the midst of all of it (I searched and searched and couldn't find it), you said something about my not feeling able to afford to take another hit (or something like that). I identify with that completely.

Somehow, I need to get back to zero - need to get my head above ground. I need to be able to afford to take a hit, not just in my marriage, but anywhere.

Lately, I notice that what would have felt like a small hit before, suddenly feels like an enormous blow.

I'm thinking that maybe personal recovery might be of some great benefit.

Bumping, hoping to get thoughts on Personal Recovery.

Frozen -

I'm not completely familiar with your thread, though I've read it from time to time.

I don't know if this will help, as my wife and I are in the very early stages of recovery, assuming we've even started (I believe we have). I look at the process of recovery as 3 separate, but linked, recoveries.

My personal recovery.
My wife's personal recovery.
Our marital recovery.

I think, in many ways, especially early on, the personal recovery is more important. Simply because as you become a healthy, better you, you are able to put that much more positive into the marital recovery. And as your spouse does his personal recovery, he's able to contribute to the marital recovery as well.

I think IC plays a huge role in personal recovery. As you learn more about yourself, what makes you you, you are a stronger person, and able to take whatever "hits" life throws your way. Doesn't mean they won't hurt, but you are better able to deal with them.

I can't give you a whole lot of advice on personal recovery, since I'm just starting mine. But I do think it is critically important - both to yourself, and to your marriage.

You might want to talk with LovingAnyway - she's got lots of great advice (based on personal experience) that is readily applicable to personal recovery.

I wish you and Patriot continued success.

Froz,

Have you ever heard anyone say something to the effect of..you can't save a drowning man if YOU are also drowning?

I'm not suggesting that is the case for Patriot..but the point remains true.

If you are struggling just to keep your nose above the water..then that is ALL you can focus on..you aren't available for anything else..you can't be..because if you stop kicking and focus somewhere else..you'll drown.

And where's the fun in that?

I was very suprised and I'll bet that you will be too..at how many of THE recovery issues..were MY recovery issues.

Personal issues that predated H and that he could do ZILCH to help me with.

Something that I have noticed and I think I addressed to Patriot is his need to jump in and save..and I notice also that often this is rewarded AND resented by you at the same time.

Rewarded because he can offer temporary relief..but resented because ultimately it makes you dependent and weak just puts one more obstacle between you and yourself and somewhere I think you "get" that.

Don't allow Patriot to BE an obstacle. It asks him to do and be MORE than any person is capable of and further breaks down your recovery.

This is one of those weird compatabilities in which some of the puzzle pieces fit together perfectly..but destructively.

About not being able to take another hit and about even small hits having greater impact than your rational mind thinks they should...

Think of it this way.

Think of a bank account.

Think of a time in your life when that account was in the red just as a general policy. Maybe when you were young and not earning much money..maybe not making wise choices..whatever scenario works for you.

During that time..ever problem was a CRISIS!

Something falls off the car and needs to be fixed?

Maybe that means you can't pay your rent. Or buy groceries.

Maybe it means that even if you used ALL of your money you STILL couldn't fix it.

So now you are screwed.

You can't fix the car you have..you can't afford another one and now you can't get to work..or anywhere else..the entropy affects all aspects of your life.

This is a prime example of how one neutral problem can cause breakdown way beyond what you would anticipate UNLESS you are in that dire position.

Now think ahead..you have a nice fat buffer in your account.

Something falls off the car.

You write a check..there is no crisis.

Ideally you would have your account to such a degree of health that NOTHING falls off of the car because you have diligently MAINTAINED the wellbeing of your transportation.

Being in those last two positions is being in a place of peace.

Being in the first is being in a place of constant anxiety and fear and dread..jumping at shadows because you know that no matter how small the problem seems..you simply do not have the assets to cover the damage.

I see you in the first category..and I think that until you get out of that place..every effort you make in your recovery will fail.

My advice would be to put the marriage on the back burner for now..honestly you are doing more harm than good in your present state anyway so you have nothing to lose in dropping the rope for a period of time.

I suggest that you get into IC and get very focussed on getting YOU healthy and strong.

Get to a place where you CAN afford to take a risk.

Get to a place where you aren't afraid to trust your judgements.

Get to a place where you can defend and enforce boundaries for yourself..without becoming abusive in the process. As an adult..you are responsible for removing yourself from any situation that is turning YOU into a monster.

Get to a place where Frozen is making her own decisions..and taking responsibility fo them rather than reluctantly allowing herself to be moved along but always with one foot out the door and a heart full of resentment.

There is going to come a time when you will decide for yourself..for the first time really..whether or not to reinvest in this marriage.

Until you are personally recoverred I don't believe that you are in a position to make that choice.

Because..you don't trust your own judgements..and can't take a risk wholeheartedly..and continue to allow unhealthy dynamics..and just be generally caught like a fish in the net thrashing and straining first toward your marriage and then away from it but in vain ..because you are not the person steering the ship. You aren't going anywhere but into the pot.

How did I miss this post by noodle?



That makes sense.

I have no idea where to even begin to do this. I also don't know how to act on a daily basis around him. There is SO MUCH distance between us - more even than in the early days of Recovery - at least that's how it feels. I suspect he would say the same.

The push/pull battle of trying to achieve some sort of level of intimacy (that I have wanted) and a level of peace (which he wants) is exhausting. But what is the alternative? If neither of us even try, where will that leave us - at opposite ends of the house, or in the same room, feeling uncomfortable around each other?



I see them.

The harder I look at them, the more they remind me of my childhood. A lot of his actions illicit the exact same feelings in me that I felt as a child. My response to them is almost identical.



I see this. I do get it. I wonder how you knew I would.

I understand your car analogy. Thank you for taking the time to put it into such easy to follow terms.




That is precisely how I feel.

Who is steering the ship?



Again, if I drop the rope...how should I behave around him on a daily basis. It seems as though when I do drop the rope, he grabs it and starts yanking the heck out of it. If I don't respond at all, he perceives that I am pushing him away. Maybe I am, but I still don't know what to do about it.

What is wrong with me? Why can't I do this? Why can't I just feel and be like other people?

If I were to "get emotionally healthy"...if that is a possibility...wouldn't it be doubtful that it could be done in time to save my marriage?

When you use the term "unhealthy dynamics", wouldn't that mean that in order for us to have a healthy marriage, we would both need to be that way?

Seems like such a longshot that we would both be able to do that in time to save our marriage - even if we are both willing and capable and I don't even know that both of us are.

If I were able to do that, then I am afraid that I would lose him.

One person can't have a healthy relationship with an unhealthy person, can they?

After all, healthy people don't marry someone a month after D-Day, do they?

That means that if I were healthy - I would have left.

Hello Frozen;

I read an article in Time magazine a few months ago which discussed a new type of controversial therapy being explored by Pyschologist and author, Steven Hayes.

Reading this thread and our recent discussions have brought that article back to the forefront of my mind.

Steven Hayes has developed a controversial new therapy called ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy). From my cursory review it states that Cognitive Behavior Therapy has it wrong. You don't have to recognize and "get over" negative feelings because to deny yourself those feelings has the opposite effect....it makes you obsess over them. Instead this theory has you embrace your pain...recognize it and learn to be happy with the pain.

He paraphrases that it's easier to move on with your life and find peace and happiness if you pick up the ball and chain and carry it with you as opposed to dragging it along behind you.

Anyway...thought I'd provide a link to the article which includes the titles to some of his books. I think this may be good individual recovery for you as it acknowledges your feelings and doesn't tell you to just "get over it". Perhaps you can be happy AND still have negative "feelings". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[color:"blue"] Link to Time Article on Steven Hayes - ACT therapy - Embrace the Pain [/color]

Best wishes to you and Patriot,

Mr. Wondering

p.s.-you must still get that book "A Rich Man's Sectet". Amazon.com has it for less than the price of a value meal.

Thanks, Mr. Wondering.

I printed the article and have been studying it for the past couple of days.

It sounds really interesting. I don't completely get why it is so controversial or exactly how it contradicts Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. Do you?

A lot of it sounds similar to me, such as these concepts:

- Thoughts bring about feelings. If you want to change your feelings, change your thoughts.

- Feelings are not facts.

From what I could tell (it sure was spoken in a lot of Therapist-ese, which made it a little difficult to comprehend), the idea of "embracing the pain" seems logical to me, rather than denying that it exists and trying to convince yourself otherwise.

It seems to speak more of accepting painful circumstances, looking for meaningful things in life, despite them and living in accordance with your own moral standards.

I one-der <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />...

My initial thoughts, applied to my situation, without completely knowing more about this type of therapy, are:

What if a circumstance is UN-acceptable???

I guess one doesn't really have a choice sometimes, like say if someone's burden is a serious illness and learning to cope with that. It can be unacceptable all day long. That still isn't going to cure it.

I have been thinking a lot lately about what exactly my burden's are - the root of them.

I haven't put an exact name to them yet, but I see a connection with them all.

They are ALL based the fear of being unwanted and unneccessary - the FEELING ITSELF of feeling unwanted and unneccessary.

THAT is my wound.

It's not necessarily about abandonment.

I could be okay with the fact that my birth mother gave me up for adoption, if only I knew that it wasn't because she didn't WANT me, but maybe because she was just young (19), had no money or family support, etc...

But if that were the case, why won't she talk to me now? Why is it perfectly acceptable to her to live the rest of her life without seeing me? Doesn't that mean she doesn't need me (the unnecessary part)...doesn't want me?

My adoptive family, too. My parents adopted me, already having one child (a boy, which is why they wanted a girl) because they thought they couldn't have more children. My mother got pregnant 3 months later and had a daughter and then another 4 years after that.

Again, I perceived that that made me unnecessary, partly because I always thought that they would have given me back, if they could.

When I began to act out as a teenager, my mother used to threaten that she would make me a ward of the state. She said that a lot, actually. I didn't even know what it meant, exactly, just that it sounded to me like "giving me back".

Even though they never did that - I always thought it was because it would make them look bad if they did - they did manage to ship me off a couple of times to drug rehab.

I found that particularly odd, given that I never used drugs. They believed that I didn't, so I'm not really sure why they did it. They even went on family vacations while I was gone.

I know how it made me feel...unwanted and unnecessary.

Speed forward to Patriot and his A.

Nothing speaks unwanted like an A.

One of the most painful things about D-Day for me is that he just seemed to accept that I was going to leave. He didn't even try.

I think after a while that night, I said something like, "You're not even going to TRY to fight for me?".

Then he said something like "You would consider staying?", or something along those lines, so here we are.

It is so painful to me that he was just going to let me go without even trying.

The A = unwanted
Letting me go = unnecessary

One time, early in Recovery, I told him that I was going to leave. He didn't sound thrilled about it, but he said okay and wanted to make sure I left him with a vehicle.

Again, unnecessary.

Is it wrong that it is so unacceptable to me for it to be so ACCEPTABLE to him if I am gone?

It's not just in those extreme examples, but even on a daily basis that this is an issue for me.

If we spend time apart, he seems to completely accept it. It seems okay with him, even if it is a changable situation.

Sometimes I think he gets the message from it that it isn't okay with me for us to spend time apart. It really isn't that.

It's just...does he have to be THAT okay with being without me?

Just thought ramblings, here. I apologize if they are all over the place and/or confusing.

Thanks again so much for the information.

Froz,

I think I may just have come to understand why it is that I "get" where you are at and I think you express it extremely well.

I have always thought that there should be an island for unwanted or leftover children..sounds so cruel to say, right...probably not to anyone who has *lived* the alternative though.

Being unwelcome in your own "home" [if that word has any meaning for you whatsoever]..being expendable, extraneous is so much crueler than ACTUALLY giving you away to some other fate. There comes a point in which the TRHEAT of being fully rejected and put out of the home seems less a threat than a much wished for promise.

I have WATCHED people set themselves up this way.

Perhaps they go in with unrealistic expectations that never come to fruit [they blame the kid]..or they wanted a baby but those puppies [cute] turn into dogs [not so much] sooner than you'd think.

Maybe they were young..or not ready because of some other issue..or whatever..the result is that frankly..it would be KINDER to take that kid out into the backyard and shoot them than it is to force them to live out your bad decisions and regrets.

Difference being that I took Patriots route and became detached and nigh unreachable.

I couldn't be rejected because no one ever had me in the first place.

I looked at Hs A as just more confirmation that people behave like dogs oftener than not and that self protection was the only way to go.

Trouble is that the lack of real intimacy is more akin to waiting for my body to catch up already and die like the rest of me than it is like "living".

I now think that perception is only half right..I do still think that people behave like dogs more often than not..but I also think that self protection doesn't reward me any more or cost me any less than risk does.

Better rejected than a bystander in my own life...heck..pain is no stranger..I can *do* pain..it's the other part of the equation that eluded me for so long.

It's really *good* to see the connections don't you think?

It brings that perception you need and want so badly.

I'm sure you aren't done yet and frankly I'm excited for you that you've begun that necessary journey.

I agree with Mr W that a person can absolutely have negative feelings about aspects of their lives and still be happy.

I don't think that "over it" is necessarily a healthy goal in every situation..sometimes I think that in the rush to be done feeling PAIN we dismiss and discard..then wonder why we seem to have lost ourselves.

Understanding AND praise? A valuable commodity to me.




I know PRECISELY what you are saying. Is it actually more cruel? I don't know. Maybe that's different for different people.

For me? I can't think of anything more torturous, really, than the thought of accepting a life without experiencing that "much wished for promise".

I think I would do anything to get it, to include marrying the only person who ever showed me anything close to it, despite what he did.

THAT is why I did it. That's why I married him.

It's also the root of my anger.

I thought I had it, that much wished for promise.

I didn't.

I felt/feel so angry because my perception is that HE let me have a taste of it and then yanked it away in a single moment. HE tricked me, letting me believe that I had it, when it was really an illusion. HE gave me hope that I could marry him and it would still be possible, because he'd read online that your relationship could be "better than ever" after an A.

Maybe it can. It sure seems to be the case for some people, but oh, what a catch-22 that seems to have become! Following that hope sometimes seems to have actually prevented me from ever actually feeling it (if it exists).

It is such an uphill battle to try to gain a sense of feeling wanted, when his very choice to have an A tells me that I wasn't. He was reluctant to marry me until D-Day, then suddenly changed his tune and later told me he married me because he had hurt me so badly, he wanted to make things right.

I think maybe he thought that sounded like "wanting" me.

It didn't to me.

It sounded like being trapped in the EXACT SAME CIRCUMSTANCES as my childhood - being kept around out of a sense of duty and to avoid looking bad to the outside world.

I respond to it the way I did the first time around - with anger and resentment at the people who seemingly can't or won't give me what I need and feeling tricked, slighted and trapped.

I've read that people choose a mate who most resembles a parent, usually the most problematic relationship.

I kind of figured that, in some way, Patriot must resemble my mother to me. It makes sense, given that my relationship with her was VERY problematic.

I have racked my brain, trying to see that connection. At one point, I even thought maybe I didn't fit that mold and instead chose someone like my father, who posesses some pretty strong passive-agressive conflict-avoiding tendencies.

I was wrong.

It occurs to me that my relationship with Patriot is identical to my relationship with my mother.

A brief description of my mother -

Outgoing. Very independent. Extremely logical - to the point that she views emotion as being irrational and a weakness.

Sounds like someone I know.

I spent my entire childhood just trying to get her to FEEL something for me, hoping she would tell me that her decision to adopt me had anything to do with emotion, rather than pure logic.

I wanted her to understand and accept me, want me, miss me when I was gone, feel for me...I wanted to know that I mattered and that I wasn't expendable.

I have given up trying to get that from her.

Only now I spend my efforts trying to get those same things from Patriot.

Enter the Power Struggle.

Me: FEEL for me
Him: Stop FEELING so much

A battle of emotion vs. logic

I think neither will win.

Things have gotten so bad around here. It's so bad that we are each a step away from not even caring what happens and the cycle of either conflict or huge distance is pretty much a constant now.

I have no idea how to resolve it. I don't think he does either.

A standoff? I can't stop feeling any more than he can stop thinking.

Neither.

I still suggest dropping marriage building efforts for the time being [at the risk of being lynched] and instead focussing on IC.

I bet he would support this..he needs to go also for his very own set of issues.

None of this is comforting and I know that..because there is no way out but through..whether that will result in a marriage or a divorce I really wouldn't even speculate..but I do think that it's worthwhile..even crucial regardless..don't you?

In a whole person..emotion and logic are both necessary elements..the reason that you are at odds is because of the imbalance..and I am sure that you already realize that a large part of the polarization is defense mechanism related at its core.

I keep seeing how you guys seem to figure out the problem yet you don't seem to know how to get past it. Kind of like ramming over and over into a concrete wall?

Are you going to seek counseling?

As much as some and or all of us want to help you- we are not really equipped to do that.

I understand what you are saying and it makes sense to me.
It's kind of weird though, in that I don't know how I am supposed to act around him, like am I just supposed to be politely indifferent to his efforts? Are we supposed to try to meet each other's EN's?



I do.

Oh, yes. I see the defense mechanisms.

moveforward,

I made an appointment yesterday. I will see an IC on Tuesday. I'm a little bit nervous because it is a man.

I'm afraid that because he is a man, he will think I am illogical and irrational. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

How to react around him?

Hmm..well..what are you doing now?

I can only relate my own experience..when considering reconciliation..I put the "non" in noncommittal.

I think it takes the pressure off.

Do you still enjoy Patriots company? Do you LIKE to spend time with him?

If so..I'd just do whatever you usually would..with no strings and try not to have any serious discussions at all.

The two of you have been tying yourselves in knots for a couple of years now and it has been fruitless.

So I'd recommend just stop.

None of the problems or issues that you have will be solved overnight..and there is nothing..not one thing that you or he can do to MAKE the other person ripe prematurely so you might as well relax and just coast awhile.

I think it is the committment part of MBing that is chafing you..not the suggestion that it might not be a good idea to be reasonably nice to each other..spend some time together..and try not to actively damage the other..right?

Also, it might help to deal with this sense of urgency that you have. It exists only in your mind. There is no statute of limitations..except the point at which Patriot is no longer willing to wait for an answer and makes his own decision. Which frankly..the current plan has done nothing but hasten..because you have been spinning your wheels and the resntment and disappointment grows as you continue to hold out and he continues to not be able to deliver the great happy ending he [wrongly] thought he could.

I have thought for a long time that one of your big holdouts was the fear that you made the decision to marry anyway from an unhealthy place and now you feel stuck.

Feeling stuck will warp anything and everything because you will naturally fight against it..but pulling away doesn't HAVE to mean pulling away from Patriot himself..it just means pulling away from that unhealthy place and having the understanding that you are NOT stuck..the door is there and has always been there..when you are strong and well you can make an honest choice about whether or not to walk through it or shut it..THAT would be the time that MBing would be most helpfull IMO.

I think that it would be hard for Patriot....*but* he can plainly see that it isn't working no matter how nice the concept of MB is..because you are noncommittal to the projected outcome.

I actually SAID to my H..I do not TRUST my perceptions right now..I don't trust my decisions..so I'm not making any.

I think that this helps quite a lot in regard to the other persons ability to accept that your future together is not a given without the belief that there is something they should be doing or could be doing to control the situation.

That..it's about YOU and your distrust of your judgement and your distrust in your decision and that you can't fully get behind one decision or the other until that is remedied.

Frankly..even if he were superman from Dday onward it would not change your reaction one iota would it? Might even get yer goat, no?

I hope your initial visit goes smoothly..I had a male DR and loved working with him..where the rubber met the road his gender didn't matter a whit..he was good at what he did and I was helped tremedously.

A cycle of "normal life" - being pleasant to each other, trying to meet EN's, study marriage stuff and possible solutions to our issues and feeling some measure of closeness.

This lasts for a very short period of time (a day - two at the most) and then distance sets in, honestly probably more on my end. I don't know why.

I never know what to do about it. Sometimes I try to talk to him about it. When I do, he usually gets angry with himself and experiences feelings of failure, or anger with me for upsetting the peace.

Then I withdraw more, feeling like I am afraid to say anything because it will only make the situation worse or because I am afraid if I start talking, I will start spewing venom.

I suspect that inside he may want to withdraw himself, maybe to avoid the inevitable fight that will ensue, but I think that because he is trying to be so mindful of not being a conflict-avoider, he tries to identify the "elephant in the room".

So then, I tell him what's going on inside me. Sometimes I am successful in doing it without LB'ing. Sometimes, I am not.

Sometimes, we rage and rage at each other because we are both trying so hard to find resolution and getting more and more frustrated that we can't.

That's what I'm doing now, as far as interactions with Patriot go.



When the distance isn't there. When it is, it's very uncomfortable and awkward.

When the "normal life" thing sets in, I feel very panicked because it feels like before - during the A.

We used to have fun together. Doing just about anything together was enjoyable because we had such a fun, playful, teasing manner with each other - lots of laughing, joking around and affection.

It still blows my mind to think about what a farce it all was and for such a long time.

When we are close now, I am afraid it is all a farce, just like before.



I don't know. I seem to be having some trouble answering that, maybe it's lack of perspective.



That is the statute of limitations I worry about.



The fear that I did? Isn't it a fact that I did (make the decision from an unhealthy place)?



How do you pull away from an unhealthy place?



It makes sense that MB'ing would be most helpful then.

I think it makes him very fearful and angry that I waver.

When I am strong and well...how did I get so UN-well? Am I really more screwed up than I think or than others here? Sometimes I worry about that when no one knows what to say to me.



How so? Is there anything I can do to make it easier for him during the interim?



I don't know. It sure feels like it would have helped, had he not have added more hurts to the pile.



Thank you, and thank you for your response. I've been thinking that maybe having a male IC could be useful in learning to balance emotion/logic, like you mentioned.

I sure am nervous, though.