Personally, I'd expose what you've got to OMW, and let OM be hanged for what's going on. You've got no reason to care what happens to him once his wife knows what he's doing. And yes, your wife will be angry as all get out with you for having done so...but that normally doesn't last.

And you can also make it very clear to your wife WHAT is unacceptable in her relationship with OM. She says it's just a friendship...but you KNOW otherwise given the IM's and such that you've seen. Simply tell her that you KNOW it's more than that...don't tell her how you know, but that you do know. And that you're NOT willing to share your marriage like that with a third person. You MIGHT (no garauntees on how well this works...it worked with my wife, but others here have noted that you can't reason with a WS) try impressing on her how all that she's investing in this 'friendship' is NOT invested into your marriage. The more she does that, the more she's holding that back from you and your marriage.

Get the OMW working this again from her angle...and who else can you expose this to that might be able to get your wife to end the affair? WW's family, friends, etc...?

Thanks for the advice. I really need some guidance, really stregnth to push on. I just got off the phone with ww, where we went round and round about privacy. She keeps harping on how controlling I am/was and how I don't trust her. I tried to explain it is more for my reassurance than trust but she just doesn't want to see that way. She said "if I went through your briefcase while you were in the bathroom and then walked away like nothing happened, you wouldn't be upset?" I said no, it may be odd, but I don't care I don't have anything to hide. She says I find that hard to believe. She says I don't have any privacy. Mind you she has all of my passwords and sees every bill that comes in the house.

Dh- ww hasn't gone out or even attempted it since June 1, 2005. But I am finding the real damage was done during the day and at least once when she went away with friends(this was a lie but I didn't really think anything was going on) after it all broke I went back and looked at cc bills and cell bills and put it together.

Rook - I started this thread with the hopes of gaining some insight into implementing plan b. My problem is a stay at home mom, with 2 little kids. It seems awful to me to have to leave my family since I can't throw her out. If I leave I will have to keep paying bills, work at seeing my kids in a limited capacity. How is this bad for her?

Owl-Wise old fellow, you sound like my dad. I wish I had the nuts to simply say, stop talking to him or else. However, I suspect this day is coming anyway.

If I go at the OM, should I phone, email or in person? OMW I can get to via phone or in person. I am starting to think if I am living a nightmare, then everyone else should to.

It has been hard to function, but it seemed to be getting better. The contact with OM after our weekend away has just taken my breath away. part of the reason she goes/has been sent to the beach is because there is no pc/internet access. I had the cell phone numbers changed so this would be hard to explain if a call showed up. Between vacations, time at the beach, the contact has been limited but if she is home it is almost everyday.

ROFL...once again, let me establish something...the Owl is NOT wise...at least not this one. And I didn't pick the moniker to give anyone the impression that I thought I was wise. Actually I go by Owl for an entirely different reason.

She's still deep in the fog. So logic isn't likely to work right now with her. I would expose like you've been suggested. As far as dealing with OM...don't do it in person. It's too easy for it to escalate into something physical, and it's very hard to prove to a judge or someone that you didn't go there with the intent to beat the snot out of him in the first place. Reasoning with the OM/OW is usually pretty pointless anyway...so I don't place a lot of expectations that talking with him will solve much. What it CAN do is to tip him and your wife off of your plans, and allow them to do some damage control before you act. Which is why I think you should go to OMW first...then go to your family and your wife's family and friends...and THEN try talking with him if you feel it might work.

Hope this helps some.

Hawk,

Totally agree with Owl. (Hawk and Owl <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />)

""I seriously suggest that ya'll seek marriage counseling. Find someone who is PRO marriage. And at the same time, make it VERY clear to your wife that there is no way that your marriage can heal if she has ANY kind of contact with OM...and if she continues to keep ANY kind of secrets from you at all""

"You don't respect my privacy" is always a red flag!!

If you think about it, why should healthy marriage partners need privacy? (unless it is in the bathroom or writing in a journal)

There is no reason for privacy on cell phones or emails. Geeze and I now have a joint email account. (Her PA started in a chat room) NO SECRETS!! Total transparency!

You were right, if they have nothing to hide what is the problem? SHE IS THE ONE THAT CAUSED THE MIS-TRUST!! She should feel some empathy for your feelings if she truly wants to rebuild.

So it is still all about her, correct?

k

EDITED TO READ: ..no reason for privacy on cell phones, emails, and briefcases.

What if you cancelled you internet connection?? It is a shame that she must be kept at the beach keeping her away from the computor. Was that your idea or her's?

Hawk,

You cannot let her obfuscate the issue like this. This entire issue is not about YOUR privacy, so that's irrelevant.



Why did you respond like this? The TRUTH is that it IS about you not trusting her. She is behaving in an untrustworthy manner so she has no right to expect that you will extend her privacy to cover activites that may damage you and your family. You need to tell her this calmly and plainly. Tell her that when she has earned you trust back that you will cease snooping...but not before.

Low

She wants privacy b/c she is having an A. She has not admitted it and you have not had a DDAY. It takes one to know one, and her back and forth banter with the OM could go on for YEARS. The OM has no intention of leaving his W b/c he has too much to lose. They are both cake eaters and therefore perfect for eachother. I think that you need to lay off of her and start being a better detective. You will need to keep quiet for weeks. Do whatever you can to get some evidence of what she is doing during the day. Trust me, she is with him. It shouldn't be hard to catch her b.c he is working most of the time. You need some solid proof and then SCARE her to death with it. She needs to see what she has to lose. She is addicted and she needs to be scared silly out of it. No one will have sympathy for her if she sends her kids off to preschool so that she can fool around. You need major computer spyware too. The old IMs to other people is screwed up too and I kind of doubt it is totally over. YOu need to gather as much evidence as possible and then confront her with all of it so that its irrefutable that she has a problem. Then go from there.

Well, I have exposed. So this would be a re-exposure? Her mother and step father are in the dark although they think something is afoot since we rather suddenly put the house up for sale without a new place to go to. Additionaly, they haven't seen our friends at any of our parties this summer which struck them as odd. I KNOW they would believe me and side with me. WW would be furious, because they already think I am the golden boy, which drives her nuts. I was thinking of letting them in on things in preparation for plan b. Just to make sure ww doesn't say "hawk left me and the kids for no reason". Her friends are a lost cause, a few suspected something was going on and tried to talk to her and she simply stopped talking to them. My parents are in the know because, my mom was watching the kids the day I hired the P.I. and I had to delay her until he could get in place. I am a terrible liar so my parents were relentless, even telling me I was nuts to think something was wrong, until I told them I had pictures then the song changed.

I am having a hard time seeing the day where my ww admits to a PA. I just can't see it. At the same time I can't see our marriage working until that happens.

On the exposure piece. I realized too late I did it wrong by giving them a chance to set their story. They have stuck with the we were friends and we knew it would bother you so we kept it a secret story.

I have to steel myself to tell her I know without telling her how I know. It will drive her nuts. As I mentioned I am a terrible liar so if she keeps coming at me chances are I will break. This would be bad because it would again open the door to "I can't believe you did this" instead of " I am really sorry I did this to our family"

You need SOLID evidence of an A. THEN confront her. There are a few threads on this site that I will look for.

Go through and read "Gramn" thread.

Low - a plesure. I greatly admire your wisdom. I have been lurking for a long time. I figured it would get better. It hasn't. I guess I responded they way I did b/c she said when we agreed to work things out"I don't see how this is gonna work if you aren't going to trust me". She has made it clear last night and again this morning, if you aren't going to trust me then why bother with this.
This has been a problem for years, I say something it gets twisted and then I am the bad guy. This morning it was if this is how it is going to be I wish you would have told me so I could have done something else. She has always maintained she should have some privacy. Things got this way because I didnt confront her sooner and I let little things become big things. She would go off to the mall spend $250 and not mention a word about it. I would say how was your day? Do anything and she would say "oh, nothing". Spending $250 is not doing nothing. I never confronted her, I just let it go. The times I did confront it was, you are controlling, you treat me like a child.... I stopped and just let her do what she wanted.

Hawk,

""She has always maintained she should have some privacy.""

Just curious as to how she rationalized this. Did you ask her why and did she give you a reason?

k

against - I know what she is doing all day. She is on the computer IM'ing. I have a key logger installed. I know she hasn't seen him b/c she complains about not seeing him and him making no effort or caring to see her.

The problem now is timing. We close on our current home aug.30. We are then staying with the in-laws until we close on the new place sept. 9. I had seriously considered telling her to take a hike once we closed on our current home, since our biggest asset would be divided. Things were better between us, the IM chats were getting bad, I figured it was only a matter of time. Before we went away they stopped talking on the IM for a week and then OM was away on vacation. I thought(was hoping) it was over based on the lack of activity. I even thought she might have figured a way around the key logger. On Monday she was back chatting away. Plan b logistics are my problem. I can't afford to put the kids in day care, our parents work, so she is the only one to watch them. I could throw her out but what to do with the kids? I could leave but I can't see the kids and she isn't really affected.

k- Funny it is all about her. although she will say it is all about me. I figure this must all sound pretty one-sided.

I really never got a solid answer for the privacy need. Here's another great one. This goes back a few months. She wants to move, I say great we can't really afford it. We need to put some money together. I get the usual "o.k." She goes out and signs up for laser hair removal for $1100. Never mentions this to me. I found out when one of the neighbors mentioned "while I was watching the kids today..." I'm like what??? I didn't even know ww was gone. I found the paperwork for the financing. I let it go. fast forward to a few weeks ago. I am going through the credit report for our mortgage and I ask what is this from xxxbank? "oh, that's for my laser hair removal...." Uh, were you going to mention this to me? "it is something I wanted to do for myself, it is a PRIVATE thing, I was going to tell you.." I used the moment to say "how were you going to go to these appointments without telling me? Didn't you think I might motice the differences at some point? This is something we shouldn't keep a secret." her response "it was just for me and it was a private thing.."

Hawk, once again your story rings bells. For years my W would go shopping and hide her items in the trunk of her car and bring them in a little at a time. If I called her on it, she would say I was controlling and imposing a double-standard -- I could go out and buy things when I wanted to. The difference was that I did not hide them.

This privacy thing is sticky -- and how can you use plan B if you have no hard evidence of the A? Maybe I should reread plan b

The beach thing was a joint idea. Actually before all ****** broke loose we were talking about it. Once the curtain was lifted so to speak she wanted to be gone because the other neighbors were giving her the hairy eyeball. The neighbors only kinda know what is going on but as I said my ww hates to be wrong and since the OM hung her out to dry, she was left with no recourse but to run and hide.

Between the what I got from the P.I. and what I have from the IM. There is no doubt of an A. None. Not simply emotional, but physical as well. WW was terribly concerned about what the P.I. could see. He couldn't see much because the car has tinted windows but you don't need to be a detective to figure it out. Also, the IM stuff, never mind I'd rather think about it anymore.

Ok, Hawk,

I'll be straight with you. You sound like a HUGE conflict avoider. You hate upsetting your wife's "happiness". You would feel bad about upsetting other members of the family.

You have to get by this. You have to decide to ground your position and not waver from it when her storms blow.

You are afraid she'll get angry and leave. Guess what? If she finds out that threats to do so allow her to get her way, she make them.

YOU have to decide if it's better to let her leave or better to stay married to a cheating wife.

I know you're afraid, but you cannot let your fear dictate your actions at this point. I've been told that the definition of courage is doing the right thing in the face of your fear. To save your marriage, you must be courageous!

You have all the information you need. You have the pictures. Their story about a secret friendship doesn't wash.

If she continues to insist on "privacy" simply tell her that she has abused that privilege and that you will no longer extend that to her. Explain that her "private" behavior has serious repercussions for you (re: joint credit report) and you MUST know about these things to have control over your OWN life. Simple knowledge is not the same as control. She reacts as if you are controlling because she knows that what she is doing is objectionable to you. She know she can't be above board because you not will simply sit by while she does it.

People who have nothing to hide hide nothing. This is indisputable truth.

So, Hawk...stop being tossed with the waves. Stand for what you know is right. You can't control how she will respond. It's her choice. Accept that you will survive no matter what she chooses. But you can't put up with being bullied like this anymore. Stop letting her succeed in BSing you.

Low

I totally agree with LowOrbit. This marriage does NOT sound like any kind of partnership...and if that is what you want, you're going to have to take a stand to make it happen.

And from what you've described, I would admit that there appears to be some risk that she may decide to leave and do her own thing...but I'd add to that it seems to me that she'd find life on her own even harder to deal with.

Straight up, take a stand and make things happen to improve your marriage. Don't argue with her...simply tell her that "This is how it's going to be". And if she doesn't like the changes, then tough. And if you have this much 'smoking gun' evidence, then you need to flat out bust her bubble. What did she say about being parked with OM? There is NO way you should let this slide as a 'just friends' thing...there is NO WAY that this would be acceptable in ANY reasonable, healthy marriage.

Low/Owl - LOL or else I would cry. I need a backbone. Always a conflict avoider, boy it took everyone a long time to see that:) I have great fear my marriage will come to an end and I will lose my kids. I know my ww, this will be a nuclear war. At the same time, while I am writing this stuff, I am starting to realize I am not getting much anyway. Someone else wrote "you can wait for the A to really take off and destroy your M or you can try something to save your M". I guess my marriage as it is now is not much of one anyway so what do I have to lose? Seems easy to write, but it may be hard to actually do, especially since things were getting better. This is gonna be a long night. I have to figure out a way to do it.

Owl - The parked thing was a big bunch of guff. I don't think she really believes I went for it. At the same time she also doesn't think I will push it any further. That is where more of my confusion lies. I have read things that it takes a while for the WS to let all the details and the real truth out. I keep waiting for ww to tell the truth, but I suspect it isn't gonna happen.

I am done for the day and I am off to plot my next move. Thanks to all who have shared advice. I'll post tomorrow.

And herein lies the heart of your problem....

She's been getting away with it for the entire time you've been together. You've developed a habit and history of NOT pushing it. So that's enabling her to continue her sorry behavior.

So don't let it drop. Don't back off. Make it clear what you REQUIRE for your marriage. And ensure that honesty and DEMONSTRATED trustworthiness is part of those requirements.

My wife has a temper like you would not believe my friend. Trust me, I too have the words "conflict-avoider" stamped on my forehead. But I've also learned that there is a time and a place to take a stand. I think that you've reached that point.

Make it point blank clear to her that you KNOW this isn't just a friendship, that it's gone FAR beyond the bounds of just being friends, and that you're not going to accept that any longer. If she's not willing to take the steps needed in order to rebuild your trust, love, and relationship, then take the next steps. Plan B at that point would probably be the best thing.

Regardless, good luck to you!