Mortarman-
Not smart enought to link yet so i'll give a synopsis
-Married with young daughter
-WW confessed to meeting with out of state ex-husband X2
-Feels like she has feelings after 7yrs and wants to correct "mistake"
-He was originally not interested but her efforts convinced him to consider it. I.e. he said he loves her back
-WW mislead him that she was already seperated
-I heard about site and engaged with Plan A
-Fended off her attempt to make a quick break (she stayed)
-Exposed ex to his parents while getting his phone #s
-Left voicemail with him
-First to let him know she was still at home (not seperated)
-Second called to demand NC and to tell we're going to go to councelling
-He hasn't made contact since and WW thinks he won't
-WW not 100% commited to making it work, i.e if he does make contact she may cave
-Printed out Emotional Needs Questionnaire for both of us
-We filled it out and we'll talk soon about it
-Councelor thinks she has a love addiction that's based in regret and he's been sucked in by her
-Asked WW to co-author a NC letter. She won't agree "right now"
-Asked for access to her e-mail channel to him. She won't agree "right now"

-So how do I get NC agreement and ability to monitor for honesty without pushing her further away?
-Have I missed anything to this point?
-What is a good cooling off period before I reattack on NC and mointoring requests of WW?
-I know this is a long process, but it's worth it to me if we can recover. Being former Mil and just an American, I want results now!
-How should I use what I learn from questionnaire, now or later?
-Been level headed, but already feel like I'm doing more (She wants her cake and eat it too) than she, given I'm one that's been betrayed
-She's vacilating back and forth to a pretty good extreme, "We need a vacation together" to "What if this doesn't work, don't I have the right to try with him?"
-How long should I expect this?
-Now that she hasn't left and has agreed to counceling and questionnaires etc... how much have the chances of moving to recovery improved?
-Assuming this works is all this extra effort going to make me resentful? I Guess I won't know unless I'm sucessful!

What's the next milestone?

Pls send or link me to good NC letter.

THX-Much
Niagra00

Hey...let me see if I can dig in here...a lot here.

NC Agreement? You keep sking or it. Actually, if you could get appointments for you and your wife with Steve Harley, he will help you get that. As well as help your wife begin to see the road she needs to take. On monitoring? Well, you can do that somewhat. But in reality, you are going to have to begin to let that go. Keep a watchful eye, but you will probably have to give her the benefit of the doubt as things get better. I wont lie...this is a LONG process. A marathon, not a foot race. The whole thing is to be firm, without being pushy.

Get her to read up on Dr. Harley's books. Take the EN questionaires and the two of you figure out what yur top 5 needs are each. Dr. Harley says you must meet the top 5 needs most of the time, and the top three all of the time if you want to have love grow. Read up on love busters and take the love buster questionaire so the two of you can see where you are tearing things down.

Cant really be an attack anymore. You are goingto have to look at her as being addicted, or ill. She wont want to do what is best for her. So, you will have to be firm in guiding her to take her "medicine." Firm but loving. That is why the two of you should block out time to go over your relationship, to work on things. To read up on these materials and to do the things Dr. Harley suggests (POJA, recreational time together, time spent together, etc) Both of you need to read up on everything here and discuss it. So, as you do so, the part about NC and all will become apparent to her that it is mroe than you issuing demands. That it is important for her self.

I understand. We Americans are VERY impatient!! Unfortunately, you dont have a choice with this...that is unless you want to be single again!

Begin to see what she needs and where you have failed to meet those needs. Discuss how she would want those needs met. The key here is consistency. If you read the book "Surviving an Affair," the couple there didnt much feel like reconciling. But both committed to doing the things the Harleys said would promote love. They worked hard to meet those needs. After awhile, it wasnt work...they had gotten used to it. And after awhile longer, a funny thing happened...they started being in love again.

Welcome to the party. BSs everywhere state that it isnt fair. So what? Unfortunately, we are going to have to do most of the work at first and that aint fair.

This is typical withdrawal stuff. Get used to it. But to answer something like that, you would answer the vacation qurestion with "Sure honey...where would you like to go?" On the being with the OM question, you reply "I am about our marriage and healing us...and getting us to where we can be." You see, never talk about divorce, or what if it doesnt work, or anything like that...unless you really do want a divorce. Always stay on message...that yo uare for the marriage and for improving things.

Dunno. I have had an up and down recovery for 2 1/2 years now. Things are better today than they were back then. But they still have a ways to go. We are still dealing with some issues. But it is better. The good days have begun to outnumber the bad. And the bad arent as bad as they used to be.

Greatly!! She is willingto listen to the truth. So, if yo uare CONSISTENT and keep the two of you o nthe right path with counseling and doing the things you need to do, then yo uare at a pretty good place right now. No guarantees, mind you. But the odds are heavily in yoru favor!

Yes!! Read this site. Read Dr. Harley's stuff about resentment in the BS. It will come. But it isnt a deal breaker. You will get past it, if the two of you can stay the course and commit to doing the work.

Dont know. Depends on what the two of you do. Really in recovery there isnt so much milestones as there is just gradual movement. Like sand in an hourglass...slowly rising upward. You cant tell moment to moment. But as days and weeks pass, you can look back and definitely see movement.


NC letter....can anyone help out with that right now. There is one in the book SAA. And there are ones on here. Someone will come along to link you to one, as I am off to a meeting at work here in a minute.

Good luck. Keep askign questions. Have her come on here and ask questions. We have FWWs here that could help her, because they have been where she has.

In His arms.

Mortarman- You're the heat!
Lots of good stuff- THX

Latest:
- Getting used to the knot in my stomach
- WW admitted to being selfish after discovery and wants that to change
- Still won't move on NC Letter
- Still won't give access to her "other" e-mail
- Found traces of her using it today but without any Spyware have no clue on activity
- Says she hasn't had contact since D-Day
- Want to ask what she's doing on Yahoo, but I'll be giving up the fact that I know
- She's at least, checking her account for the unlikely response from ex-husband
- Hope that ex-husband will honor my NC request and this will be a non-issue for e-mail access. If I could get WW to do NC letter, it would be a moot point and she should have no reason to have separate account
- Did dinner and a movie today, both enjoyed it
- Had discussions that were based on future events, job transfer, next house, etc... made me feel good
- After looking at ENQ she said "this (her infidelity) really has nothing to do with you"
- Again suspect she has some sort of love addiction...just wish she was addicted to me v. ex-husband!
- Kissed each other goodnight (she initiated)

- Overall assessment is that she's still vacilating but I've in affect increased the likelyhood of this working due to some PLAN-A preemptive attackes (THX-Wonderers)

So... Things are coming together but have two big fears:
One- She's marking time to convince herself she tried and has no intentions of recovery
Two- With no NC letter mailed to Ex-husband, she or he makes contact

Any suggestions on above? I guess I'm starting to over analyze a tad...right? When is a good time to invite her to look at this discussion forum? Have recovering friends who both post regularily. Should I wait until we're fully into recovery? Goal now is to have her commit to working on our marriage. She's doing it now, through her actions, but hasn't said "I'm commited to making this work." When should I ask for at least a verbal commitment?

Interested in others' perspective. It's awesome, in a perverse way, that so many BS have been through this and can share what has worked for them.

THX Again
Niagra00

Ahem Niagra - Welcome to marriagebuilders - did I read right that she was addicted to you vs ex-husband?

In other words, was your marriage born of an affair?

Believer...I can assure you that theirs was not a relationship or marriage born out of an affair(though I can see where you might get that idea)...how can I be sure? Because Mrs. Niagara and I have been best friends since we were 8 & 10 years old (she's younger--lucky dog-ha)...anyway, I was the maid of honor in the first wedding and the matron of honor in the one to Mr. Niagara...(first guy was a verbally abusive schmuck just to skim the surface, Mr. Niagara on the other hand is a truly gentle, kind and wonderful man...JMHO)

I originally said that I would not post to this thread because I am just too close to be objective, but I just had to defend my dear friends...so I guess sometimes I may break my own rule (Mr. Wondering may too, I'm sure)...but it's because we both care so much about the future of this family...I'll bow out for now...Please believer and all you other wonderful caring pros, give Mr. Niagara all the help you can in this situation...Thanks

Mrs. Wondering

P.S. Niagara...dinner and a movie? So did Mr. Wondering and I...Did you see 40 Year Old Virgin? If not, we highly recommend it for you two, HILARIOUS!!! Another way to make her laugh (she's been pretty depressed lately) would be to bring up "the bird that no one owns" and she and I "being in the box" in Mackinac...do you know about those things,(J brings those up every now and then, and it never ceases to crack me up...pretty sure it will do the same for her) if so, great, share the laughter, if not, great way to begin opening up on a light note...that's just a start...hint, hint...start asking her questions about her and then listen and listen some more and after that listen again...from my understanding, there's a lot you don't know about her, because you don't ask...give Mr. Wondering and I a call tomorrow if you can(not too early, we are are lazy and the young one is up north with grandparents)...though if you need us, anytime is fine you know...thinking about you guys and praying for you, a ton! Oh, I almost forgot and I'm telling you this now so I don't forget again...The last time that she had her Bunco buddies over, you must know how to work a crowd buddy, because she and I talked the next day and she was having some very warm fuzzy thoughts of you, she said, "It's really great to get to see him in a positive light, making all my friends laugh and stuff"...Great Job...figure out how to get into that type situation again if you can...Just wanted to let you know, you need some positives right now, I know...

P.S.S. If there is anyway possible that you could swing it with work, take Mortarman's advice and take a vacation together, in SSA, Dr. Harley says it's a great way to get started, lots of time to reconnect and begin meeting emotional needs, etc...

bumping...this person has legitimate MB questions...please help...

Mortarman is the expert, and has given great advice. As long as she won't write the NC letter, and there is contact, you aren't in recovery.

So I would advise staying in Plan A for now.

Believer-
She won't write NC letter "right now." I think this is her attempt to not contact him but see what he does. Right now she is in "just surviving mode." I suspect with time she'll think less about him and then be able to fully commit i.e. cosign a NC letter. She doesn't have my playbook, but she knows that the NC letter is a must if we're going to progress to actual recovery. When I do press the NC letter or at least a verbal commitment that we're going to make this work, she says I'm asking for too much right now. I know that's how she really feels, so I'm throttleing back a tad while still working Plan A.
We've had a couple of interesting converstaions. One was talking about getting rid of our fullsized SUV and getting a two-door ragtop that will still accomodate our child seat. While that makes sense with gas prices, the cynic in me thinks that she could be setting up for leaving down the road and having a sweet ride. Probably wrong on this, but that's how I feel these days. I'm outwardly positive with her but there is always the strategist in me thinking what all of my actions will do. Feel like in the past I've been so trusting that I didn't catch some of the signs. Do have a few regrets but won't assume blame for her actions. Bottom line is she was not courageous enough in the past to risk sharing her inermost feelings and that was the start of her infidelity. After talking about the ENQ she did realize that this is less about me and more about her guilt of a failed marrige to the ex-husband in question. She also said "If it makes you feel better, he's fat now." That didn't make me feel better, but it was funny. What it does show is that her thoughts are inconsistent. In the ENQ she rates spouse attractiveness as a 5 very important need. I'm in better shape than I was when we were first married, less hair, but she's happy with how I look. So to me this means that she is either over evaluating the ex-husband or it's less important when weighted agianst correcting her "mistake" of leaving him 7 years ago. As you've heard through Mrs. Wondering eyes, it wasn't a mistake, although she did look at me as her "knight in shining armor" which hastened the process of her leaving him and marrying me. Other complicating factor was that I dated her before she married him. She dumped me when I was remotely assigned to Korea for a year. In retrospect a little more time before her moving in with me would have been optimal. All of her fiends think she's dead wrong in what she's done and I'm thankful for it!
Last though for now: I'm very apprehensive about going back to work on Monday. Don't think she'll do anything rash, so I guess I'll just have to take a leap of faith! Been off from work for 5 days now and have cancelled a business trip to make sure I'm around for the next while.

THX-Niagra

Bumping in hopes of getting some insight from others-this was posted over the weekend, and we all know that weekends are sooo...slow around here! Thanks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mr. & Mrs. Wondering

Hey Folks,

Per past thread, things are going Ok. Nonetheless, I need good advice. WW went to councelling yesterday on her own and is working a plan to put her feelings for her ex "in a box." Until she is better able to do that, she is not willing to come to me and say "alright I'm ready to commit 100%." The backdrop to this is that she hasn't had contact with ex since D-Day (16 Aug), and that she believes that I must have done a very effective job and having him back off!
She's also said that she doesn't think it's fair that I limited her options by confronting her ex and exposing her deception to him too. She later said that she doesn't blame me for anything I've done. She also said that I (meaning me) have the upper hand now. I told her that I don't view this as a competition. I think her attiutude is consistent with her dicomfort in not having full control of our relationship.
My question is this: If I feel confident that she has no contact, yet we haven't accomplihed a NC letter to ex, is this acceptable? Her rational is that the NC letter is just stupid, is embaressing, and I should be able to take her word for it that she has NC. I think that's part of it, but the rest is that she wants to leave the door open by not signing a death-nail type letter.
Second question is on timing. there are two seperate issues in her mind. First she wants to use now until Christmas as a trial period. This time will be spent seeing if she can deal with her feeling independently for her ex in a way that will allow her to be faithful to our marriage. Second, but related, is whether she'll be able to come to me before Dec with a 100% commitment to recovery. Right now she say that it's all that she can do to survive minute to minute. I can understand and agree that I'll have to suck it up for the sake of the marriage. How long is reasonable for me to "hold my breath" before she comes to me with the 100% commitment? Is there a time when I should be more insistent on commitment? Realize that her view is that even if she does this well before Dec, we'll still be in the trial period ending at Chritmas. That would be it for our marriage! On the positive side, if she comes around in two weeks, for example, and we're in real recovery should the trial period still exisit or is that all situational?

THX
Niagra00

Mortarman- Have some questions in today's post (24 Aug) any thoughts? Also, how do I solicit better or any responses. Are things going too well for folks to make an effort in responding?

THX
Niagra00

You are going to have to be firm with her. You should trust her? HHhhhmmmm. You should say to her in a firm but loving way that she should think about that statement for a minute and ask if she would trust you if you had done the same thing. You see, if she loves you, if she wants the marriage, if she wants the affair over with, she will do this. You can tell her that. Tell her that this isnt about you trusting her. It is about her doing the things to allow you to heal so that your marriage can move forward. And if this is what you need, she should be willing to do this.

Huh? Not sure what you mean by "feeling independently for her ex in a way that will allow her to be faithful to our marriage."

You dont. You meet her ENs, dont love bust and work on yourself. That is a lot of work. A lot for you to do. No sitting around here. Once you do that for an extended period of time, then the answer to these questions will become apparent. She will either be moving back toward you...or not.

Now would be good. Look, you must always ask for commitment. She promised that on your wedding day. Not trial periods. Commitment is what will make this work. Not trial periods in order to see if she wants to commit. That will NEVER work and yo ushould never agree to that. Reality? She will take tme to commit as she works thru all of this. But you should never condone anything less than 100% commitment. You should always state that it what you expect.

Again, no such thing as a trial period. Commitment. That is what marriages are built on. Not love. Not sex. Commitment, especially when it isnt easy to commit. Any other way and it is all doomed.

Again, you cant "try" marriage. You cant "try" commitment. You DO marriage and DO commitment.

Counseling is in order here. Call Steve Harley and set up appointments for both of you. He has a plan, a workable plan. Not trial periods where you both can see if you can fall in love again. But instead, concrete steps to doing this.

She is lost...you are not. You must be the adult here and help her find her way. Dont agree to things that are wrong. Show her the way. Get help thru counseling and books etc for her to work thru this. Shoot...bring her on here so some of these FWWs can help her.

In His arms.

Niagra, MM is doing a wonderful job of trying to answer each of your individual questions, but I have a question FOR you before deciding whether or not to dip my toe into your thread and questions. I hope that's okay with you.

Also, if you'd prefer to stick with Mortarman as your "advisor," will not intrude. It is, after all, what YOU think will be helpful to your recovery.

Are you and your wife born-again Christians? I need to know if we are looking at biblical or secular advice being needed here as the "primary focus."

God bless.

Mortarman- THX. Typo below, should have read feelings.

Bottom line is: She thinks that our recovery will be in stages. First is whether she'll be able to deal with her feelings for ex and then next work on the marriage once she has compartmentalized those feelings away. So question is do I push for her to work these simutaneously? She currently won't jump to full recovery until she has sucess with feelings for OM. I'm tracking on the no "trial period" idea. Do you think it is unwise to put time periods on any of this? Plan A uses time periods to determine if BS needs to move to Plan B. Just don't want to push too hard on NC letter if I feel like it's already in affect been accomplished. She has been receptive to everything else I've brought to the table. She wants to go to independent counciling on her feelings for OM and sperate joint counciling for our recovery with a different therapist. Do you see any problems with this? I want to feel like she has someone that she can talk to in complete confidence.

"This time will be spent seeing if she can deal with her feeling independently for her ex in a way that will allow her to be faithful to our marriage."

ForeverHers- Both of us believe in God. Neither of us looks to scripture for guidance. While that may work for many, in our case it may just complicate things. I am interested in your input to the questions that I've asked MM.

THX
Niagra

Niagra, thanks for your honest response.

As a Christian, I don't "get" the concept that of believing in God but not looking to Scripture for guidance, so there would be no way to "surrender" one's life to God and "obey" God's commands if the Bible is "tossed out" and not considered important. That leaves "faith in God" irrelevant and reduces it to faith in secular sources.

As I said before, between the Harley's site, the books like Surviving An Affair, His Needs/Her Needs, etc., there is little advice that I can offer beyond what you've already read for yourself and have received by others. The "standard" for your recovery will NOT be "according to God's commands," but rather it will be according to whatever each of you individually thinks you want to "make important" for "self." That's essentially the same sort of "standard" that let an affair be a "valid choice" for "self."

So if you are going to "toss out" Scripture, then WHAT set of independent guidelines will you BOTH adopt as the Standards of Behavior that is "binding" upon both of you, regardless of how you might be feeling or regardless of what emotional reactions you might have in the future regarding ANY issue that might come up?

Here's my answers to your questions, but that's about all the help I will be able to offer. The DOING will be up to you and your wife as discussed above.



That's about all I can offer Niagra. I stand on God's Word as being authoritative. Without that, you MUST both decide on a common set of Standards to abide by as BINDING upon both of you. Without that, you will each continue to choose Standards that may not be conducive to a MARRIED life, and maybe not even conducive to a single life.

Think of it this way; If you (and your spouse) will NOT surrender your life to God, then to who (if anyone other than 'self') will you surrender your life to? There can BE only one "god" on the throne of a person's life at one time. The CHOICE will be WHO sits on that throne and has the RIGHT to command and who has the obligation to obey. "Giving up" that right to Christ is what often separates Christians from non-Christians because Jesus Christ IS both LORD and Savior and we, poor humans, cannot serve "two masters." This is why we cannot "play" at being a Christian, we either ARE and surrender our lives to the KING, or we don't. To do less keeps us in our own "fog" and lying to ourselves concerning our own state of salvation. That is why the Scripture gives us the Parable of the Soils, so we can examine ourselves to "make sure of our salvation. So when we accept Christ as our Savior we also must accept Him as our LORD, and give Him the "throne" of our lives.


No doubt it would "complicate things." That's why most people will NOT accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior....it would "complicate" their choices to sin for whatever reason they "want to." It "upsets" their chosen "lifestyle." Far easier to do "whatever one wants to." That, after all, WAS the mantra of my generation in the '60's...if it feels good...do it! Feelings RULE! Feelings never lie to us. All that matters is how we FEEL, not whether something is right or wrong...there is only 'gray,' no 'black or white.'

And that IS what your wife is telling you she wants...right? At least until the holidays, when new choices will have to be made....again with no "yardstick" to guide those choices other than personal "feelings."

So now you are both faced with choices you have to make. By what "measure" will you make those choices?


God bless.

Niagara,

Foreverhers, though tough at times, gives wonderful and divinely(read God) inspired advice and you would be wise to ask him questions about how God would have you handle your situation...Foreverhers really knows his Bible, uses scripture in what I am sure is exactly the way that God intended and his posts have been a blessing to so many on this board (myself, Mr. Wondering and Mortarman included). I know that Mortarman will agree with me on this, as he too is a Christian, and gives the advice that he does based solely on what follows scripture.

Reading the Bible and the scriptures involving God's commands regarding marriage certainly couldn't hurt...look at it this way, you guys tried it your way, and look where it has gotten you...might be time to consult the true expert on marriage, God...after all, marriage was His idea. I mean if you were on a football team, you would read the playbook before going out onto the field wouldn't you?

I must diagree with you regarding scripture complicating things for you guys...actually, it really simplifies life, as the Bible is very specific regarding God's plan for us. It's pretty black and white, and since I know you guys, I feel safe in saying that it would certainly appeal to your military approach about things.

By the way, just to let you know, Satan "believes" in God too...something to think about, huh?

Mrs. Wondering