Let’s look at some of the basics of how we all got here. The WS had an A because the BS did not meet some of the EN’s that they really needed. In a nutshell that is what we are being told by all the experts. Sure, there’s more to it than that but that’s what it boils down to for many of us.

Based on that idea then the initial fault of the A falls into the hands of the BS. Now please understand that I said the initial, not the overall fault. But what it really comes down to is not that you didn’t meet the EN’s properly or enough, it’s that the WS forgot one important thing required in ALL successful marriages… communication.

This may not apply to all cases on this board, but I do think that many here can relate to what I’m about to say. How many of you BS’s knew ahead of time that your marriage was having serious problems? I’m guessing that the answer is not many of you. If you were like me then D-day was literally a punch in the gut that came from nowhere. You may have sensed that there was something going on, but because you trusted your spouse you never considered an A.

Now that you’re here you start researching to find answers as to what went wrong. Big problem for most of us is that the general consensus is that we, the victims, are actually somewhat responsible. Pretty big pill to swallow when you’re looking for sympathy. How can that be true? You didn’t go out and have the A, so they must be wrong.

IMO I believe that you are not given the other answer that you so rightfully deserve. The one that says you are not to blame. If you look at it from my view then let me explain. For those BSs that never knew there was a problem how were you expected to fix it? I guess you could say that you can’t fix what you didn’t know was broke. If you were never told then the simple truth is that you are not to blame at all. PERIOD!!!

How many of you wish that your spouse would have talked to you about what was wrong? I bet most of you would say with enthusiasm, “Me”. But because most of you were never given the opportunity to discuss any troubling issues you only assumed that things were OK. But, you’re still somewhat responsible for the A.

HUH!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

No matter how you deliver that message it’s very hard to accept. How can I be responsible for something I never knew about? Well, you were. It’s just that you were not to blame for the A. It still came down to the WS saying yes. Of all the choices that the WS could have chosen they chose to have the A rather than talk with you first and work things out. Not only is that pill hard to swallow, it’s very bitter at the same time.

Let’s see some of the most common options that the WS had to choose from.

1 – Communication : WS should have talked to you about the situation and the developing feelings that may cause problems. Chances are the WS was afraid you would not understand or you would blow things out of proportion. But, you’ll never know because the WS didn’t even consider giving you the chance to help and instead had little faith in you and your marriage.

2 – Leave : Why stick around if you know it’s going to create problems? The WS knew there were warning signs but they chose to ignore them and instead did not leave the environment. Some people do not have the luxury of leaving such as people who work together. It doesn’t make sense to quit when nothing has happened, but then again that’s when the WS should have chosen option #1 so you could identify what it is that catches the WSs attention and to see if you could provide that for the WS. At the same time this is when you would discuss boundries to help keep your marriage safe. Again... something they felt was too inconvenient to choose.

3 – Say NO : Most of the WSs here will say that by the time they should have said no that it was too late. I’m gonna have to disagree and say that it’s never too late to say no. They said yes because they liked the attention they were getting and it made them feel good. Again, if this was the case they should have chosen option #1 to see what you could have done for the WS.

4 – Say YES : Well, this is why we’re here, isn’t it? Your WS said yes rather than choosing the other 3 options. Let’s not think about the betrayal the spouse will feel when/if they ever find out. Let’s not worry about the guilt the WS may experience. And let’s not consider the damage that is being caused to everything you and your spouse have worked for; trust, happiness, home, children, etc. Nah… let’s just think of ourselves and get what we can out of this. Anyway, what the BS doesn’t know won’t hurt them.

All of those options and they thought of option #4 as being the best one for them and everyone else involved in their life. Why not, you don’t matter at that moment anyway. If you truly did matter then the other options would have been chosen first. And now for the really hard pill to swallow… now they want to talk and work things out. Option #1. Would have been easier if they could have just picked that one first, don’t you think?

This is why I stress at the WW's who come here - look at your own communication.

I was unhappy in my marriage - I did try to voice this to my H, but not in a direct manner...so instead his reaction was - you are nuts, or you are pmsing or something along those lines. I would feel he didn't care, he didn't listen, and to avoid rocking the boat, didn't bring it up again.

MY LACK OF COMMUNICATION got me in this mess - not my H. Yes he may have not been intune with me, and may have been neglecting me, but my lack of communication skills, my lack of learning how to talk in a way that he can understand and hear, and my conflict avoidance is how I ended up in the affair. I let my H's reactions to MY shortfalls FUEL my resentment, and fuel my justifications, when all in all, it was MY lack of communication.

But as most Ws's - we lack those skills and internal knowledge until it's too late, and then we have opened a whole new swack of problems.

A WS, once they hit that point, are so into themselves and so self-righteous that saying No to the affair isn't really an option it's all about them, what they deserve, and what they need to be happy...this illusion becomes a very nice happy pill.

Option 1, most Ws's do pick believe it or not, but because of what I mentioned up above - the lack of communication skills on their part...it's never really heard or communicated properly and ends up fueling things even more.

Now this may not be for all Ws's - but it's true for me, and I see alot of it in alot of the Ws's who come on here, still hurt by the Marriage leading up to the A's and still blaming the condition of the marriage on their H's when there was something they could have done, just like there was something i could have done - learn how to communicate.

My inappropriate friendship was not about me feeling unhappy in my M or unfulfilled EN’s in my M at all... It was al about me and unresolved issues within myself at the time... Unfortunately and sadly it took the pain & devastation of an inappropriate involvement with another men to make me realize these things, seek help and address these issues within myself... Chances are big that this is also the case with your W Hopeful4 (any every other WS/FWS).

Yesterday on your other thread I’ve said that I believe betrayal goes much deeper than just unfulfilled EN’s in a M. It’s also more than a lack of commitment and a lack of respect towards the BS… Yes, definitely these things are part of it, but it’s more complex and goes deeper than this. I believe the main problem with WS’s is a failure to protect themselves against their own weaknesses/vulnerabilities. This was also the case with me. But as I’ve said yesterday, usually the WS are not aware of these weaknesses/vulnerabilities before it’s too late… And by the time they are already too deep in, they find it very hard to go into reverse (because it’s like an addiction) and they decide to progress with the destructive and wrong behavior… And by this time they become aware of those things they are so caught up in the ‘fog’ and rationalizations, they can’t ‘think straight’ anymore… It’s a huge and vicious cycle…

Certainly unmet EN’s in a M can play a huge role… No marriage is perfect and of course all the most important EN’s of spouses are not 100% met all the time (if it was, then we would live in a perfect world), but I strongly believe it goes much deeper and the problem mainly lays within the WS. The fact that many people in unhappy and unfulfilled M’s DON’t stray and betray their spouses is a clear proof of this. The bottom line is that BS’s are never responsible or can take the blame for the WS A, no matter what the situation is/was.

Hmmm…by the time I’ve realized that I’ve developed inappropriate feelings for FOM, I felt very confused and guilty about it and therefore didn’t had the courage to tell my H about it… I couldn’t understand the feelings myself, so I was thinking how could I expect my H to understand it? I also didn’t want to hurt my H, so I decided to remain silent. I was also afraid my H would ask me to cut off all contact with FOM should I tell him about my feelings, so this was the other reason I decided to remain silent. Very selfish of me, I know.

Just wanted to share this too.
Suzet

Hopeful...

You are making the mistake of thinking that WS's apply the same logic you just did. They don't.

I'll be back in a bit to answer all of your "choices".

Low

Low and Suzet are right, by the time we realize what is happening, our normal way of thinking has been long out the window due to thought processes, justifications, rationalizations...and as ashamed as I am to admit it, with the guilt and sadness comes too a slight excitement that you are getting away with it, early on. I did not use the same logic then as I used to in life and as I do now.

My initial thought on this post is you are a BS thinking after the fact. Of course your thought process is going to shoot holes all over a WS thought process.

I truly don't mean to be disrespectful, but here are a few ideas.

1) As long as you "proudly" call yourself a victim, you will be.

2) To assume you know what a WS faces in all of this without having been a WS is no more logical than a WS saying they know what a BS faces without having been one. This also brings up an interesting point... The emotional bias we allow here. The BS can get on here and presume WS thought processes, decision making and various other things without much scrutiny, but if a WS posts a presumption of like kind about BS-dom, then it is seen as, at best, politically incorrect.

3) Think of any time in your life when you looked back on something and wondered how you were a part of it. Maybe you were part of a mob during a riot in a city. Maybe you did something you were not proud of some time ago because "everybody was doing it" or because you "got caught up in the moment". These are the kinds of things that can give you a little insight to WS thinking.

4) When Dr. Harley says the BS has played a part in the demise of the marriage, I think that has to be taken with an amount of consideration. I don't think it is a blaming remark. I think it is a remark that lends itself to the "it takes two to make a marriage work" idea. If a marriage collapses, more often than not, both had some role in that. The interesting one is when the slighted partner thinks they are "entitled" to something they are not getting, and therefore they are justified to lash out at the other one for not giving it. Since when has anyone been entitled to a gift from another person? "Entitled" is the taker... and the taker messes things up when he's in charge all the time.

These are my thoughts and I apologize if I have offended, but life is to short to not see the truth. If it is not the truth to you, then so be it.

Well, I can say that this one is something I've struggled with a lot. And it has nothing to do with wanting to be (or allowing myself to be) a victim. Quite the contrary.

I have no doubt that there were things in the marriage that I did not do right. No one is perfect. I would LOVE to understand what those things were, so that I understand what mistakes not to make again. So far, the best I can come up with is not to marry someone like my XH again.

Now that's not being arrogant, or ignoring my own faults. But for more than the last half of my marriage (which was 11 years by the time the divorce was final) I could tell something was not right with my XH. I could tell he wasn't happy, and that there were some big problems. So I started asking him what was wrong. For a good 6 years or more, I was practically begging him on a regular basis to please talk to me, because I knew something was wrong, and I didn't know what, and I couldn't do anything about it if I didn't know what "it" was.

He insisted the entire time that there was absolutely nothing wrong. He would frequently tell me nothing was wrong and that if I thought something was wrong, I must be crazy, or that maybe something was wrong with me, but he was fine. He constantly told me he loved me.

Since he wouldn't talk about what was going on, I tried guessing. I tried changing behaviors - tried to watch myself and not nag, tried very hard to encourage him and show him I loved him and admired him. Nothing helped. In fact, if anything, things got worse.

Well, as it turned out, he had been putting personals on-line and sneaking around on me for a good 4 years or so. And I believe from some of the things I found that he had some porn addictions for most, if not all, of our marriage.

So, how do you deal with that? I really don't know what I did that contributed to the demise of the marriage. I'm certainly not going to get any answers from him - we don't talk at all, and given some things that happened toward the end, it needs to stay that way. I know that a red flag for dating a divorced person is if they don't take any responsibility for problems in the marriage, and blame everything on the X, but I really don't have any idea what to take responsibility for, which means I have no idea what to tell someone I'm dating once we get to the point of talking about the marriage.

And add to it, everything I read or hear tells me that I must have contributed to the problems. But it's really rough to say, "Yeah, I was to blame too. I don't know why, but I must have been." If you didn't know enough to see there were problems or to ask what the problems were, then at least you can say that you recognize you didn't try to draw your partner out to talk about the problems, and that you should have listened more, etc. But what do you do when you did all that, when you did recognize there was a problem, but your spouse denied any problems and refused to talk.

This has become a real dilemma for me. I don't want to sound like a bitter ex-wife who blames everything on her husband. But I honestly don't see what I did to contribute to the demise of the marriage, or what I could have done differently. How can it be partly my fault when I DID recognize there were problems, and did everything I could to communicate about those problems, and was denied all information that I needed to help get through those problems?

I think the basic premise -- Unmet ENs = Logical reason to have an Affair -- is flawed.

There are many, many reasons why people have affairs. Many. Further, MY emotional needs went unmet for MANY years in my marriage, yet I didn't have an affair (my H did). WHY? If Unmet ENs = Reason to have an Affair is true and logical, then I should have been the one to have one, right? Or I should have had one in addition to my H having one.

IMO, character plays an important role in the people who CHOOSE to solve their emotional problems or fill their emotional needs by stepping outside of their marriage to find it. Further, character plays in important role when people fall into relationships that get out of control and suddenly they're inappropriately involved with someone.

I have been a 'WS' many many years ago before my current marriage. So I know both sides. The issue of 'why' people have affairs is too complex for this simple approach. The reasons are many and varied.

I think the basic premise -- Unmet ENs = Logical reason to have an Affair -- is flawed.

The issue of 'why' people have affairs is too complex for this simple approach. The reasons are many and varied.

EXACTLY! I agree with this 100%. Basically I was trying to say the exact same thing on this thread and on this post last week, but the above is just a nice, short, concise and simple way of putting it. If I had enough space to include it in my signature, I would because it is SOOO true!

I have learned through this process and my studies that 99% of spouses are absolutely SH1T at marriagebuilding.

I know of NO marriage unaffected by infidelity that works hard at meeting ENs, avoiding LBs and cementing their relationships. NONE. None have realistic expectations of their marriage nor tools to improve it.

I know plenty who have troubles. In fact I can't think of many marriages in my personal knowledge that are as good as mine and Squids is becoming right about now.

Boy that was strange to write ! But its true.

I see symptoms of potential affairs everywhere.

Communication it seems is a tool only adopted when both spouses realise how valuable their marriage is, maybe by an affair attack. I proposed MC and tried to discuss with squid for months before her affair but she was too self absorbed to listen. And I was too much a conflict avoider to insist.

I do not think anything would have prevented Squid's affair. Looking back I am sure I would have divorced Squid eventually even if there had not been an affair. I was SO unhappy.

So H4F, did you and your WW have a deliberate marriagebuilding relationship where such painful communication was possible and regular before her affair?

Ok...I'm back...

Let's go through the logic from this FWS's point of view...



I communicated until I was hoarse. I begged, pleaded, and cajoled. But she refused to HEAR it. As far as she was concerned, there wasn't really any problems and I had no reason to be unhappy. I just needed to "get over it". She was "head in the sand". So communication was futile.



Leaving meant that I must necessarily create havoc in my wife and kids lives. It would have been a financial hardship on all of us. I would've been abandoning my responsibility to provide for their physical needs. I still loved my family very much. I wasn't willing to throw out the baby with the bath water if there was another way. Again, your note about #1 is futile in the context of a head-in-the-sand spouse.



I didn't say no because I had reasoned that an affair was the best option. I had reached a point where I did not feel guilty about pursuing it. In fact, I couldn't think of a real good reason at the time to say no. Wife refused to work on issues, I had family obligations I wouldn't abandon, therefore, the affair seemed like an ideal solution. I had changed my value system to allow it.
Again, your insistence on communication - futile in my case.



I reasoned that since she didn't seem interested in working on any of our issues that she must not really care if I had an affair. After all the attempted and unsuccessful attempts to communicate how unhappy and lonely I was, I had convinced myself that my wife was simply incapable of making the changes I needed her to make. Since she was "incapable", it was futile...and actually cruel...to continue to expect her to meet the needs I was expressing. I decided that an affair would be good because it would remove those expectations from my wife. This IS, in fact, what happened. Our marriage was GREAT while my affair was in progress. My wife and I got along better than we had in years. I was almost always in a great mood.

So, there you have it.

Some interesting side notes:

Many BS's wonder why their WS's are so angry with them when they attempt to show love and affection after d-day. Well, it just pisses us off that it took something as traumatic as an affair to get them to take notice. We often see it as "a day late and a dollar short". We also are a bit miffed because we see the BS as wanting to end a relationship that was meeting needs that the BS refused to meet before the affair. We think you want us to return to the "status quo". This actually terrified me so much that I told my wife on d-day that I would not return to the same marriage we had before. If she wasn't willing to change, we were done. I wouldn't waste anymore of my life talking to the wall.

There it is...an inside view.

Low

Very insightful post Low… I think your post will provide much insight and (hopefully) some understanding to BS’s into the reasoning and “internal dialogue” of WS (at the time of the A) who had been in a situation specifically like yours where the BS initially refused to deal with the problems in the M and the unfulfilled needs of the WS…and had a "head in sand" approach...

Of course your choice to turn to a third person as a result of this was very wrong and unhealthy with a lot of justifications and rationalizations, but at least your post will provide some insight and understanding. I believe the best way to obtain empathy and compassion for others (and specifically BS’s and WS’s for each other), is firstly to get insight and understanding into each others different and opposite experiences, reasoning etc. and a willingness to have better understanding.

Blessings,
Suzet

It's also worth noting that people who are depressed have difficulty identifying viable options. That's why severe depression puts people at risk of suicide...there seem to be no better options available.

Choosing the affair is similar. We somehow convince ourselves that the consequences of our OPTIONS would worse than having an affair.

Low

We are all here looking for answers, but I really think most of us are looking for the magic wand, that can make everything all better.

The only magic wand is our self, we each hold the key. I like all of you BS, found my confidence shaken and found my self-esteem at an all-time low. Think about that do you want to be around someone who is miserable and unhappy. The answer is no, we all want to be around happy fun people and we are now challenged to do that at a time in our life where it is the hardest thing to do!

We must become the confidante fun loving happy person our spouse wants to be around. Nothing can changes the past, yes we can learn from it and try and make a better life, but we can not live in the past.

My biggest problem is my taker side fights some of my best decisions, wanting my WS to do more and fight for me too. I want her to act the way I do, but that’s not her, I have found out she is grieving as much as I do, she just hides it better, keeping all of her pain inside, think it protects me from the pain that she says she has caused.

So yes, we the BS have the undoughtily task of healing, when we are hurting most. Ironic, unfortunate it doesn’t matter, I know now I must find that inner strength to become the man I was and the one my WS wants. Sure we all have found we have issues and changes that we need to make in our life and we should, but they alone are not the answer.

So I plan to hold on to these thoughts and strive to find my own magic wand, the one within me.

I think you also have to consider how people make decisions. First off, not everyone analyzes all their options before they decide to do things. Secondly, many people don't envision what are the likely outcomes of the decisions they make. And third, many people are prone to bias in their assumptions about the outcomes of their decisions. Its not a cop out, some people just aren't wired this way.

One way I look at it is the continuem between short-term versus long-term decision. I think, in general, many WS's either are (or become due to the A) tilted towards the short-term. I think most BS's that are on MB are (or become due to the A) tilted toward the long-term. WS's would choose option 4 because it is the best option for that particular day, the either do not fully consider the long term impacts of this decision, or they introduce data bias by assuming no one will ever find out. BS's can't even consider option 4 becuase all they see are the long term impacts and do not bias the data.

This long-term view versus short-term view has been one of the bigger communication barriers in my M. I have always been willing to sacrifice happiness today for the promise of more happiness tommorrow. My WW is on the opposite end of the spectrum and always have been. I know I need to move a little closer to her and would like her to move a little closer to me with respect to this view of the world. To some extent this difference is still a barrier to our recovery. My WS's feels that recovery and working on the M will be difficult and at times painful in the short term and is either not concerned with the long term impacts to each of us as people, or has biased the data to believe we'll be better off apart. Since, I am on MB, I believe long term we will both be better people if we work on our M. While I know this is difficult in the short term, I believe that it will provide a better life for both of us in the long term and am willing to make a committment.

Tomorrow is the most wonderful wonderful day of. Things will always be better tomorrow. We'll be happier tomorrow.

But, you know what? We don't live in tomorrow...we live in the here and now.

So, with deference to prudent planning, I have learned that it works better for me and everyone around me if I live in the NOW.

I don't want to die waiting for what might be tomorrow.

Low

I think the basic premise -- Unmet ENs = Logical reason to have an Affair -- is flawed.
It's not "logical" to have an affair.
Also, very few people go out looking to have an affair.

"Unmet ENs = Reason affairs occur" is a better way to put it but also, as Suzet pointed out (a quote from Steve Harley, "Affair happen because a spouse fails to protect themselves against their own weaknesses & vulnerabilities."

They get themselves into a place where they are "too comfortable" or intimate with someone.
This is one of the points which Harley stresses and some like to point out that they should be able to their "own thing" such as going out drinking with their buds all the time or take separate vacations.
You get married so you can spend time with this person, not so you can get away from them.

I'm gonna have to disagree with part of this. I think unmet EN's opens the door to the opportunity of an A. I was in the situation 3 times for an A and said no EVERYTIME. Why, because I used what God gave me... choice. It’s what we all have but some of us fail to exercise when we should.

My FWW failed to exercise any other option other than option #4. It doesn’t matter what excuse you throw into this discussion (fog, taken off guard, etc), she said yes when she should have said no. No one was holding a gun to her head or threatening the life of a loved one if she said no. Nope, the choice was hers and hers alone. All she had to do was say no and walk away. Instead, she thought of herself and how good it felt to be admired and liked. When he reached in to kiss her she knew EXACTLY what she was doing and how wrong it was, but she still kissed him back and figured she would deal with the outcome later. (BTW, the above paragraph were her words).

Problem is that when someone expresses a liking to you that it becomes a very powerful feeling that few are able to walk away from. I remember being back in school and meeting that girl for the first time and her saying that she like me. It was a great feeling that put me on top of the world and I wanted to soak up every bit of it while I could. But, regardless of how we would word this, we still have a brain that gives us the ability to choose and I could have walked away if I truly wanted to. Sure, I would be missing out on all of those feelings, but I still could have said no.

As far as option #1 goes, communication is a two way street. If the WS was telling you, begging you, or even screaming at you to listen because there is a problem and the BS failed to listen or take the WS serious then the BS will have to share some blame for the A. The WS and BS combined could have helped protect the M if communication had been successful.

Many people are here because they lacked the communication skills necessary to protect themselves and their M. Maybe they became too comfortable as time went on and figured that the WS was just babbling when in fact the WS was dropping hints. Maybe the WS said that someone at work seems to have a crush on them and the BS just shrugged it off because there was trust. Fault in communication is on both parties… the WS should have been more stern and serious by not using playful words like crush, kinda cute, or a little smitten and at the same time the BS should have gotten his head out of his a$$ and listened to some of the warning signs. <<<Hindsight>>>
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Very true… Most A’s start as friendship, then become inappropriate, then escalate into an EA and then eventually become a full blown PA… And unusually the development from friendship into EA happens very slowly and over a period of time. Usually people don’t seek an A.

The above can be explained by using the frog in the hot water analogy. If you threw a frog in a pan of scalding water it would quickly leap out in shock. If you put a frog in cold water and slowly turn the heat up, he will stay in the water until it’s dead. It’s very easy to cross an invisible line without being aware of its impact. This is why many WS’s say ”it just happened”, but the truth is it don’t... People know right from wrong and eventually when WS’s know and realize they have crossed boundaries into the wrong territory, it has just gone too far and many just don't want to admit it at that point… And it is then when the justifications and rationalizations (‘foggy’ thinking pattern) start to set in.

Before my EA I thought I would never get tempted... I was on moral high ground and VERY judgmental towards people who get tempted and involved into A’s. The greatest lesson I’ve learned from my experience was humbleness as well as compassion & empathy for the weaknesses of others… Including adulterers. I know now that A’s can happen to ANYONE, even to strong, intelligent, religious people with high morals and strong conscience. I’ve also learned to be very careful about how sure you are about yourself and temptation. The devil can come against you when you least expect it, when perhaps you don't even see the weakness yourself.

My inappropriate involvement with another man exposed a lot of my weaknesses and it has been a very hard lesson, although I've grown a lot from it. Never will I say “it can’t NEVER happen to me” again. I used to think that I was too morally stable to ever allow myself to sink to the point of betrayal, but after my involvement I know that I’m capable of that as well. Yes, I didn’t overstep the boundaries into a full blown EA and/or PA, but temptation was there, very strongly so, and this speak volumes… It was only by the Grace and Protection of God that my involvement stopped before it could progress any further.

I know now that if circumstances are “just right”, ANYONE can be capable of ANY sin (including infidelity) but by the Grace of God we can fight temptation and ask Him to help and protect us. And if we succeed in fighting and staying away from a certain temptation, we must not think that we are “better” than others who don't and see down on them. Instead, we must give the thanks and glory to God if we can stay strong and have compassion & empathy for the weaknesses & flaws of others.

Just wanted to share this too.
Suzet

Ewww... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />