OK, here is where I am at, which is not really knowing where I am at….


Because of W’s affair I need so much emotionally right now. But because of pre-A issues she has with me she says she cannot provide the emotional support at the level I need.
Without the emotional support and contrition, I cannot deal with the A and it is making me bitter, angry, and resentful.


I feel that she “may” regret the A because she knows it is morally wrong, but doesn’t necessarily regret it out of any sense of love for me or betrayal of me.


She says there has not been intimacy in our M for years and so cannot feel or display that or affection very easily right now, but right up to our big argument that started all this in May, she was able to show affection, be close, share intimacy, and evidently was able to do all of this with OM within several days of starting the EA and choosing to make it a PA.

On one hand I want nothing more than to show her all the affection and love that I am dying to give, I know it is there and am purposely holding it back. I hold it back because when I give it and have to accept that it is one-way (me to her) it causes so much pain and continued feelings of loss and rejection. So I am having to hold those feelings back, suppress them. This suppression along with the resentment I feel growing is making my love feelings for her fade big-time.

On the other hand, I feel that considering what she has done to me I should be able to expect her to show a lot of efforts to save our M, to convince me to stay in the M. She isn’t doing much of this and that really makes my frustration and pain grow.

I really don’t feel that she is 100% committed to saving our M. And she has pretty much acknowledged this. I asked again about D-day and their discussions that day. She said that she knew that her leaving the M that day was “not the right way to leave the M”. That she knew she needed to at least stick around and see if it could be saved. Wow, that really makes me feel confident about her enthusiasm to save it.


I don’t think that she believes we can have that great marriage that is fulfilling to both of us. I don’t think that she believes that she can have that with me.

I don’t honestly know if I can get over the A. But I know 100% for certain that I cannot get over it if I am not able to openly deal with it and if she cannot emotionally support me through it.

I think that if I had her emotional support and felt that she was really wanting to save our M that I would have a better chance of getting over the A than she has of getting over her pre-A issues with me.

I don’t feel that she can or even really wants to get over her pre-A issues with me.

She says that all the issues she talked about during her A that caused her to want a D were real issues that are still there. These are the same issues that during her A she told me made her feel that she definitely wanted a D and didn’t think those feelings would change. So why then did her getting caught in the A cause her to all of a sudden want to save the M if the issues are still real and still there?
Again, this is where she says that the A wouldn’t be the right way to leave the marriage. That she wants to be able to know that she gave it her best shot to save our M.

But in the meantime I guess I am supposed to sit around, suppress my feelings, and let her deal with her pre-A issues with me. Then, IF she can get by them, then maybe we can deal with my issues and the A????? I really think that if this is the way it is going to go, that I will not be around if and when she gets over her pre-A issues because I will have completely lost my feelings for her.

I am hurting so bad right now, I really need someone there for me. Without her in the picture at least I know not to expect someone to be there for me. With her in the picture it is hard not to look to her for love, affection, and support.


I just know that if I was caught having an A, and said that I wanted to save my M, I would work my as$ off to save it and to make it up to my BS. If I didn’t think I could do that, I would acknowledge that, spare the BS the additional pain, and allow them to move on.

As the BS I feel like I am stuck in a holding pattern. I feel that I am waiting on her to decide if she really wants to commit to saving the M, and this seems so backwards and wrong to me.

What hurts even more is my feeling that if we do go ahead and D, it will be much more painful to me than to her. I just don’t get the feeling that she is much afraid about the possibility of our M ending. If she REALLY wanted to save our M after getting caught in an A I would think that she would be scared to death that I could walk at any time and would be trying to do all she could to keep me in it. And I just don’t see it.

That said, she is making some efforts. She will hold my hand for the time it takes for me to say bye in the mornings. Occasionally she will hold my hand when we are driving somewhere. Occasionally she will lay her hand on my side for a little while when we go to bed at night. I acknowledge those efforts. But the emotional state I am in right now really needs so much more. And since she cannot do more, it makes me feel like I have to suppress my feelings, and that is leading them to fade away……

Sorry that this is such a rambling post…. I just don’t know where I am going and don’t know how to get to anywhere….. I just know that I am feeling more and more pessimistic about our M. She asks me what it is that I need. But if you have to ask for love and affection does it really mean anything when it is given? Does that make any sense to anyone? I would rather not have any love or affection at all than to get “fake” or “forced” love and affection. That just makes me feel worse.

I just know that I cannot 100% commit until I feel like she has, and I just don’t feel like she has yet, or will….

It is 3 weeks post D-day… 3 months since our last intimate encounter…. I kissed her a few times during the first week post d-day, since then I have held back, so we have not kissed in weeks. I hugged her a lot during the first week post d-day, now I am holding back and maybe hug her every other day or so, so that is all that we have any contact whatsoever except for the occasional hand hold or hand on side that I mentioned above.

Maybe we are just not compatible any more. Regardless of what is going on, I know that I am a very touchy feely person who needs to give and receive lots of physical affection. She just doesn’t seem to be this way, or at least not this way with me.

I can’t help but feel pessimistic….. am I wrong? Am I unreasonable? Am I expecting too much? I just don’t feel happy. And considering my wasted summer, I just don’t know how I can manage to continue on this way with no end in sight…..

Without the emotional support and contrition, I cannot deal with the A and it is making me bitter, angry, and resentful.

These feelings are understandable. It takes time to heal from all this pain. It takes time to forgive. If you just are SURE you can't deal with it anymore, it's time for you two to consider Plan B. And I do not mean that you take seapration as an opportunity to batter your wife emotionally about the kids.

This suppression along with the resentment I feel growing is making my love feelings for her fade big-time.

My dear, in your love you tried to use your children as pawns to hurt your wife. If you are now adding resentment to that, I suggest that you leave your wife. Nothing good could come from you staying. You will hurt these people, your family, even more.

Do you like Lord of the Rings? Remember in the first movie near the end when the Ring calls Aragorn, and he moves toward Frodo? Before that, Frodo asked him, "Can you protect me from yourself?!" I ask you, can you protect those you profess to love from yourself and your harmful behavior?

Are you willing to seek help for that anger and not shift that responsibility to your wife? Because that's exactly what you're doing.

On the other hand, I feel that considering what she has done to me I should be able to expect her to show a lot of efforts to save our M, to convince me to stay in the M.

See here. This is what I mean. You also have the responsibility to show your wife that your M is worth saving. That is why Dr. Harley's Rx is Plan A.

And let me say this: with a PA, your marriage is over. What do I mean? I mean that a PA breeches a marriage contract. It was probably in your vows, and it's in the Bible (I'd have to look it up). You're starting from scratch, as soon as the affair is ended. So now possibly, your wife is not your wife, but a woman you're trying to woo. Is it her responsibility to chase you? This is true in the emotional sense if there is no PA.

I understand your feelings toward your wife and your marriage, but there is more here. There is abuse of some sort, and that is no way to make decisions.

She isn’t doing much of this and that really makes my frustration and pain grow.


Yes, I do get this. You are ready for her to end the affair (of the heart now apparently; I misread and thought it was ongoing) and return to the marriage. I believe we told you that she needed a No Contact Letter, and as far as I know, one has not been sent.

No Contact Letter from her and guarantee of safety from you.
(I would say that it's still close enought to D-Day to warrant a NC letter, but if you are pretty sure there is no continued contact, the choice is yours.)
Plan A

That's the Harley plan.

~ZP

ZP,

“And I do not mean that you take seapration as an opportunity to batter your wife emotionally about the kids.”


I would not do this.


“My dear, in your love you tried to use your children as pawns to hurt your wife.”


Uhh, no…. On D-day I managed to get my children from where my W dropped them off on her way to a lawyer, after she refused to bring them home because she knew I had caught her, after she had told me in the past that she could probably get a restraining order keeping her and the kids in the house and forcing me out until the D was over. So on D-day, when I finally found out how thoroughly she was betraying me, I didn’t trust her one single bit.
Several days ago we were fighting and she told me that she was taking the kids and going to her mothers to spend the night. I said I didn’t want the kids taken away. She said she could if she wanted. Well, excuse me but I am their parent as well. My only leverage in that situation was to say that if she took my kids away against my wishes that I would file for D the next morning. Was that the greatest thing to say? No. But what else was available to me to keep my kids? I cannot stop her from doing whatever she wants to do. I am far from a controlling husband. If I was then how could she have done what she did without being caught?

“I ask you, can you protect those you profess to love from yourself and your harmful behavior?”


Yes, most definitely. The problem is, I feel my “profession of love” for my wife fading due to the circumstances that I am in and of which I have no control over.



”Are you willing to seek help for that anger and not shift that responsibility to your wife? Because that's exactly what you're doing.”

And how am I doing this? Because I am deeply hurt and need someone and yet the one who hurt me, the one who says she wants to save the M is unable or unwilling to care for me in my time of need?


”See here. This is what I mean. You also have the responsibility to show your wife that your M is worth saving.”

Maybe if you were a fly on the wall you could speak with knowledge of what has transpired. In fact it has been me repeatedly telling my W that I hope wholeheartedly that we can make it, that I know without a shadow of a doubt that I want above anything else for us to be happy with each other, for her to love me, for us to have that great marriage. I am the one always saying these things. I do not hear this from W. Can you not understand how I can develop strong frustration, heartbreak, and resentment in this scenario?


“So now possibly, your wife is not your wife, but a woman you're trying to woo. Is it her responsibility to chase you?”


If only this was the case. I doubt I would try to pursue or woo a woman who hurt me in the worst way. Is it too much to expect for her to maybe try to woo me?
It is not necessarily the fact that is was a PA that hurts the most, but that it was a PA while she was married to me. If I D, I would expect any future romantic interests to have been with other men, obviously. The difference is, when they were with other men it would not have been a betrayal of me. There is a huge difference there.



“There is abuse of some sort, and that is no way to make decisions.”

I am interested in you clarifying this please.


“You are ready for her to end the affair and return to the marriage. I believe we told you that she needed a No Contact Letter, and as far as I know, one has not been sent.”


She tells me there has been NC except for him calling after the first week, at which time she talked to him for 15 minutes. So, “IF” I believe her, the A is over, although I feel like it is still a very strong reality existing in her mind. She will not discuss a NC letter. She says it isn’t needed at this point, even though he called her 3 times until he got a hold of her (2 times on the “love phone” that I took possession of, then after not hearing back, calling our home, which is the call I referenced above). She says it will just make matters worse for OMW and their marriage.
I cannot force her to make a NC letter. Heck, last week I asked her to promise on the Bible not to contact him and to hang up immediately if he called her, and to let me know immediately of any contact and she refused. She said she couldn’t be sure that she might not break down and call him, and couldn’t be sure that she could hang up if he called her. And because I got mad that she talked to him for 15 minutes when he did call, she said she probably wouldn’t tell me if he called again.

Look, I do love my wife, but there is just so much I can handle. She says my pre-A actions left my Love Bank zeroed out with her, and now her Love Bank with me is rapidly decreasing. That said, one little touch from her, one instance of taking my hand, makes my heart jump. And honestly, that makes me feel like a chump. After what she has done to me, how can my emotions make it so easy for her?

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh TD.......SHE CAN'T BE ALL LOVEY DOVEY WITH YOU RIGHT NOW. You guys need to go to a counselor, sort out the issues.

SHE IS IN WITHDRAWL.....think of her as a drug addict....it has only been 3 WEEKS, that's nothing hon.....you need to be more patient.

I know you have needs that need to be met, but she is INCAPABLE of it........don't you understand that???!

She's in every bit as much pain as you are in, and she probably isn't even sure this marriage is going to work out because she is in so much pain from the withdrawl from the OM.

As painful as it is to not have your needs met, you are going to run this marriage right into the ground if you don't start sympathizing with her, trying to understand her feelings. PUT YOUR TAKER AWAY.......it is ruining your chances.

You're poor pitiful me routine is going to push her farther and farther away. (BTW you have EVERY right to feel sorry for yourself.....you just need to stop being so clingy and needy around her, or this marriage is going to self destruct.)

-Caren

Edited to say: She is WITH you, she is TRYING, you have to give her credit.......when she's ready, when she feels safe.....she'll hold your hand, she'll start filling some of your needs, until then........you need to PLAN A PLAN A PLAN A.....fill her needs like a crazy person......we are trying to get her to fall back in love with you.....right now she "loves" you, but she still isn't IN LOVE with you....you have to win that back.....she isn't convinced that things aren't going to go right back to the pre-affair condition your marriage was in........you have to make her secure in that fact that you've changed, and that those changes are permanent.

As I said, I am suppressing my feelings. I am not always able to sucessefully do so, but that is my intent. However, by making myself suppress my feelings, I can feel my love feelings for her fade.... If I quit being so "needy" around her, then I emotionaly progress to where I don't need her, then the marriage is over...

I just have a hard time squaring the fact in my mind that I am supposed to want to stay in a M with someone who doesn't love me, loves someone else, and is having such pain from being kept away from the one she loves.

Like I have said before, I deserve better than to be the "second choice", or the "safe choice", or the "moral choice", or the whatever choice if it is not the "I love him and want to be with him above all others choice".

And in the current situation, no one would blame me for not accepting any less than that and leaving the M.

The other day she asked me how much her looks had to do with my decision to try to save the M. Come on! I am not going to go through what I am right now just to have a pretty wife. Anyhow, there are lots of pretty women out there looking for guys. I am not GQ material, but I am atleast no worse than average looking (DEFINATELY no worse than OM), and have a solid career, financially well above average. Heck, if OM (shorter, skinnier, older, makes considerably less money, and smokes) was able to get a woman as pretty as my wife, then why should my W think I would have to settle for someone less attractive than her? I guess that means she thinks I am not quite the good catch...?

Anyhow, as I have told her, looks aren't everything. And in fact, her level of attractiveness might actually be a deteriment to us reconciling. It concerns me that she will continue to get guys attention and flirting after she has proved that she cannot resist attention, and I also worry that if she is such high maintenance that if she thinks she is not being appreciated that she will go have an A.

I just don't kow.... my head feels like a tornado of all kinds of conflicitng thoughts...

My wife is beautiful in my eyes, always has been. She asked me about breast implants a week ago. I said I don't like the idea of them because

#1 she is beautiful as she is,

#2 general anesthesia and surgery carries a risk, and all for cosmetic appearence? not worth it in my opinion unless you are disfigured,

#3 if someone feels they need something like that to feel better about themselves, it will never be enough, they will want more surgery. if you aren't happy with yourself, surgery will not change that, IMO.

#4 I love my wife's appearence the way she is. a big-chested W wouldn't be the lady i fell in love with.

But I guess OM was very excited about that and said he would buy them for her. Hmmm, if he "loves" her, why does she need "improving"....?

TD-

She is asking you that because she is feeling you out......she is wondering WHY you still love her after she's done what she's done.

You are reading WAY to much into what she's saying, as she is still very FOGGY.

i.e. this statement: I guess that means she thinks I am not quite the good catch...?

That is not what that means.....you are trying to make sense of something that makes no sense.

And she isn't *in love* with the man like you're thinking.....she is *in love* with the fantasy....it's a chemical thing....like a drug...it takes a while to KICK.

Think of her as a drug addict, you wouldn't expect a drug addict to be in tip top condition 3 weeks after they stopped doing drugs would you??????

So think of it that way, she's sick.....she needs reassurance from you, you have to put your needs on the shelf and help her kick the habit.

ALL of us feel like "Why am I doing this???" and the answer is, you want to do everything in your power to save you marriage, to be able to say that I've done everything I possibly could to save this marriage.

It may work out, it may not..........but if you didn't do everything you could, there'll always be what if......

You also need to resolve the issues that caused the marriage to go awry.....otherwise you are destined to make the same mistakes in future relationships.

As Dr. Phil says: You have to earn your divorce, and if you're still mad......you're not ready.

-Caren

She maybe wants new chest size to impress the other man. Dont pay for it! She is nutz.

Thanks for logging in and giving us an update. There are many here who care about you two and your marriage.

T-D, can you explain to us why you have not taken the advice (mentioned frequently) to call the Harleys for expert advice?

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Sure, I have asked to call the Harley's..... but W says "we are in MC, let's give this conselor a chance first". So we see this MC for 1 hour a week. So far, that 1 hour has been primarily about how W felt / feels about our M due to pre-A issues.

All I know is that right now I feel lower than I have EVER felt. D-day was filled with anger, ect.... so that tempered the depression. Now that W has gotten close to me 3-4 days after d-day, then withdrew again, I no longer have the strong emotions there to deflect the total despair and deperssion and hopelessness I feel. I honeslty feel that I am not going to ever be happy again with W or without her.

Without W I will be missing the one who I always felt was the love of my life. I still can't imagine life without her.

With W, atleast as things stand now, it seems like a M where I will have to forget about the A without any feelings of being loved or appreciated by my W. A M where I have to make the efforts to make up to her for all the things I did wrong pre-A. Also, I will be reminded daily for the rest of my life that the one who I felt was the love of my life didn't / doesn't feel that way about me.

Like I said earlier, I have no clue where I am going and even less of a clue of how to get there.

I felt like I went through withdraw from her during my 9 weeks of ******. And now I feel like I am having to go through withdrawal all over again since she has withdrawn after the initial burst of emotions following d-day.

Hi.

Just wanted to remind you that Love is a choice, its a verb--an action word, and shouldn't be based on feelings alone.

PS. There is no reason why you can't call SH by yourself. I wish I had enough $ to do it myself.

You should call SH on your own. he can give you some good advice and how to handle this and how to work on things from your end.

Don't supress your feelings. Try not to act on them around her - but supressing them will be worse. come here and get them out - find someone (a male friend) you can confide in, or find a great IC you can talk to - make sure you get those feelings out!

Bob Pure on here might able to help you out too when he gets back - he had a wife that was very unresponsive and very hard on him in the beginning, and he did the ultimate Plan A and bettered himself...and now almost a year later things are going pretty good, he even finally got an apology last month.

Hang in there - call SH...keep coming here for support and Plan A AS much as you can!

I would like to understand why zuzupetals has made a charge of "abuse" here. What has brought on this very serious accusation? Has TiredDad been beating his wife? Have the authorities been notified? If there is abuse, then the authorities should be notified and we should not be here talking about saving a marriage, but about putting him in jail and removing his W and children from harm.

That is a VERY SERIOUS charge and I would like to know why it is being tossed around so cavalierly.

TiredDad, your marriage is about right where it should be for the amount of time the affair has been over. [presuming that it is, in fact, over] Your W will likely begin to feel remorse for her "abuse" the farther away she gets from the affair. Right now she is too close to the deed to fully realize the full effects of what she has done. It will probably come in time. The best thing you can do for now is watch your lovebusters so that you don't make her defensive. If she is busy defending herself, she can't take an honest look at herself.

I won't lie to you about recovery, you are in for a long, damn hard year and resentment is a NORMAL feeling when you experience such a cruel traumatic shock. That is just the very high price of adultery. It is the most cruel betrayal a spouse can inflict on the other and it's traumatic effects will not go away overnight. But that is what you signed on for when you decided to stay and work on the marriage. You can end up with a much better marriage than you had before so hang in there, my friend.

TD, are you certain the affair has ended? Has all contact ended with the OM?

I assume it came from reading what Dr Harley says about Love Busters:
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Melody - To answer your question - they are from the emotional needs board. Tired Dad is never gonna live it down. His wife can rut like a you know what, but it is Tired Dad's fault.

I surely hope there is a better explanation than that, because employing anger and making demands under extreme duress and shock is not the same as having an "abusive strategy." Having a volatile reaction to the devastating news of an affair does not an "abusive" person or an "abusive strategy" make. Using that definition with such an irresponsible broad brush would indict Jesus Christ for throwing the money lenders out of the temple. Of course, some may think he is "abusive."

Again, I would like to know what this man has done that has warranted such a horrendous, SERIOUS charge. What you posted in the paragraph above is something that almost all of us have done under great duress upon the discovery of a life shattering traumatic event: an affair.

However, we don't label one another "abusive" for it. We try to understand such a natural reaction and help them manage their NATURAL angry reaction. Its a huge leap, and hardly appropriate to call someone "abusive" for such behavior. Folks come here in shock enough as it is, they don't need grossly exaggerated labels to aggravate the devastation and grief they are experiencing.

ghnl, since the charges of "abuse" seem to be so lightly and cavalierly made in some quarters, I shudder to imagine the ire you good folks have heaped upon the head of TiredDad's WW for her very real abuse. And I wonder if that is helpful? Making so-called "angry demands" in response to an affair doesn't even begin to compare to the devastation left in the wake of a cruel, traumatic affair.

Is she also being hammered like this for her "abuse" of TiredDad?

I recall Justuss asking us to not allow T-D's threads to become attacks on other posters (including T-D).

I believe a discussion of the definition of 'abuse' and 'appropriate behavior in response to infidelity' would be better served on their own threads.

I'll let you start if you so desire such a discussion.

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ghnl, no, I don't desire. This is not a discussion about "appropriate behavior," and the "definition of abuse," but a discussion about why TD is being called "abusive." And if THAT is appropriate behavior.

Since TD was called abusive on this thread, this is right where it needs to stay. I am awaiting an explanation of what this man has done to warrant being labeled with such a very serious charge.

TD, have you read "Surviving an Affair"? You have listed some divorce books you've read, but I haven't seen any of the Harley's or any other recommended marriage recovery books in any of your reading lists.

You ARE ignoring all of the advice that people have given you on what you can do to help yourself here, imnsho.

Read "Surviving an Affair" - read "Lovebusters" - read "His Needs, Her Needs". Read them over and over and over again until you get it. Take the actions you need to take to UNDERSTAND what is happening in your situation, and then go from there. Right now, you don't truly understand the dynamics of your own situation.

It IS possible to work on saving your marriage without direct cooperation from your wife right now - by working on YOU. That starts with reading the books, getting into personal counseling with a counselor that understands the Harleys' Marriage Builders concepts. Do what YOU need to DO and worry less about what it is your wife is doing for the marriage right now. You can't change her - but you can change YOU.

Nothing in the Harleys' books say anything about supressing your emotions or affections. You are not suppressing your emotions, btw, you are withholding affection from your wife as punishment for what you perceive as your wife's unwillingness to work on the marriage. What you need to realize is how NORMAL this all is for where you are at in your situation. And realize this: she's at home and says she wants the marriage - for some WS's THAT is a major miracle. I would have given my right arm for that much in my past marriage. STOP withholding affection.

You need to find a MC who wants to help you get your marriage back on track by offering ACTIONS - someone who talks to both of you about what it is each of you should be doing to make this marriage work - giving you both homework to do and bring back to him or her. If your counselor is not doing that for you, explain to your wife that, even if she is not comfortable talking with Steve Harley herself, you need a little extra help right now and have been told by many people that Steve's the man to help you. Call him yourself. He'll be able to help you with your emotions, your issues and what YOU can do to keep this marriage together and more...

The hardest part about recovering a marriage from an affair is that the hardest WORK must come from the BS, until the WS comes around. It's not FAIR, it's not fun, but it is what it is - and you need to either accept that, grit your teeth and get down to work, or go on like you've been doing: bemoan it, don't do anything to help yourself and wave good-bye - because it's not going to get fixed the way you're going.

OK, I'm putting the 2 x 4 down now. And the bricks. But I hope you paid attention! Because I really think you have been given a chance here that some here have never gotten.

And ...
Just a note to some of the other posters on TD's threads:
I've been reading a lot of TD's posts from the beginning (this is a new profile for me - but I'm an old timer). And I'd like to offer some advice to everybody else in addition to the advice I just offered TD: I think it is time that EVERYBODY ignored everything other people say on his threads and simply give him the advice he needs. I think we should just help the man and stop with the (what seems to me extremely selfish and childish and snotty and snide) comments about where people came from or what they have to say. Just IGNORE THEM if you don't like them or what they have to say. That's what GROWN-UPS do.

CS