I don't know if this helps at all, but I had to comment on the irony. This is the same thing she said to you, isn't it? During those 9 weeks...

I wonder if it is possible she has the same trapped, desperate feeling you did at the time.

I don't think either one is going to help much... But I'm not sure what to say that can help. This is a real question - your heart is broken, what specifically can you do to manage the pain.

I think you'll want to adopt a long-term view, instead of a short-term one. And when dealing with your wife, you might want to just be kind. If you can't do anything else, just be kind to her. That is the one thing that you've done that seemed to get through to her.


No matter what happens at MC tonight, you will get more information, and the dynamics of your situation will change a little. Tomorrow will look different from today. Keep at the MC. And keep thinking about your long term goal - a wife who loves you above all others - and what you can do to get there.

And keep praying, T_D. I still am for you.

I really admire the fortitude you are showing. You are hurting, your heart is broken, yet you keep trying, you keep on going. You keep coming here to MB even though you get clobbered a lot. You are showing more courage than you realize.

It could be. But I see no desperate feelings coming from her in regards to loosing me..... I am sure that she feels bad because her life and my life are in shambles. I am sure she feels guilt. I just don't get the feeling that her guilt is due to her acknowledging how deeply she hurt and betrayed me.

I would still like to hear some advice on how not to LB when I am flailing away in a storm with no support from W.

I cannot do this with a happy face and a smile. The only emotion that i can muster that can overcome the hurt and despair is anger. So I can either walk around looking like a whipped dog begging for sympathy, or I can walk around with a pis$ed off look on my face letting everybody know to keep their distance.
TD

This is why its a heroes gig to plan A.
you have to lock up your taker, or distract it for the longest time.
Its your taker that wants to sulk, be comforted or revenged.

I am just a bloke like any other. Two things helped me lock up my taker and plan A ( which incidentally does not involve a charade of pretending to be happy. Just avoiding lovebusters and avoiding living down to WWs rationlised low opinion of you).

first I realised that nothing I could do could secure Squid back into my marriage, short of locking her up. If she wanted to go I had already lost her. I couldn't lose her more.

So I behaved as if I wasn't afraid of losing her. And that required detaching from the chaos, and treating plan A like a work project. I kept logs and everything. Did SWOT analysis, all that.

Silly ? Maybe but it allowed me to distract my taker.

And I also trained in the gym and went out with friends and the kids a lot to keep my taker otherwise engaged.

My taker took its first tentative steps outside the cage after about six months. Now he's free to roam, but is much more obedient and housetrained ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ask yourself, is the visage you present to your W one that reminds her of the reasons she shoud work on a marriage to you or not ?

Remember TD, you don't have to do any of this MB stuff. Just know that dragging your sad @ss around is not proven to help end afairs and promote recovery, while plan A is. Yoru instinct is rarely your friend when fighting infidelity.

All blessings mate. This is a hard gig.

TD,

I don't know how profound this is going to be for you but I'm going to let you in on a little concept that worked for me in a similiar situation dealing with my WW. Bare with me as I try to develope the concept.

What if I told you I could perdict the future with 100% accuracy? I looked into my crystal ball and I foretold you that on January 29, 2006 (ironically 6 months after D-Day) a petition for divorce dissolving your marriage is going to be filed by one of you. Not sure which one (crystal balls aren't all telling). Well, you've got 3 children. Never mind how you feel....How would you want them to remember these 5 remaining months of your marriage? Sure you can hide everything going on to some extent, but won't you regret not trying to enjoy these last 5 months together as a family.

You see at some point I had to resolve myself that my marriage was over. My wife was still in contact, making secretive plans to get together with OM (who lived 750) miles away. I just didn't see things ever changing. So I decided to just give up forcing things. I turned it all over to God. I prayed for the power to change what I could change and accept what I could not. I beleived at that moment I could not change the outcome of this situation. It was inevitable. Accepting that allowed me to more clearly appreciate what remained. A few months, perhaps a year. But I had accepted it was over.

Accepting that allowed me to at least temporarily stop focusing on the past and the future. To attempt to live each day. No less, no more. To enjoy what I could of my beautiful wife and our darling daughter. In the back of my mind I was still "trying", but resolved I could only do it day by day. The affair was irrelevant. The OM was irrelevant. My daughter, my wife, and my marriage were to be treasured each day that remained.

For my daughter's sake, I did not want this time to be tainted by fights and conflict. I did want to resolve issues with my wife, not ONLY for possible and seemingly unlikely reconciliation but for the fact I'd still have to raise a daughter with her. This release of my hurt, temporarily, gave me the power to do so objectively and calmly. I was no longer being guided by my emotions and upset. I was prepared to move on with my life but knew I'd be O.K. with that a few months from then. I worried about my wife's mistake, I knew she'd regret it but I had to stop punishing her and punishing myself.

Well my wife waffled then blinked. I was able to appreciate each little step she took towards me. We both could fake certain things and started supporting each other through each of our recovery processes. Very soon her affair ended and I was able to calmly console her through withdrawal and a couple of screw up's on "No Contact". I was able to be her friend. I was still upseting her. Sometimes I'd push to hard to fix it all today. Her guilt was strong. She wanted/needed so much to prove her theory right to prove her justification that I didn't really love her that much. It took these efforts and Plan A'ing for those weeks for her to process the fact that she was mistaken about me. I did love her and to prove it I was willing to bottle up my hurt and put it away for a few months to be content and happy with what I got from her for the time we had remaining.

Finally, we weren't faking it anymore. Both the BS and WS fog cleared. We're now working on making our marriage better that it ever was before the affair and I am so grateful I didn't let my emotions overtake me as I could have missed out on what I have today and what I foresee in the future with my wonderful wife.

Somehow this helped me process and deal with the day to day of recovery and I hope it can help you too.

Good Luck, Mr. Wondering

Sure BobPure - swoop in and steal my point as I'm typing & proofing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Honest question asking for brutally honest reply:

If you were my W, would any of the things I have posted here make you feel that I do not want to save my M, or that I do not want to try, or that based upon what I post it is obvious that I cannot get over the A?

TD,

Oh give me a break! Anyone who says you should be "over" the A in 2 months is crazy or cruel or both!

TD

Your wife is most likely unable to be rational right now. she will look to pick fault in you and your actions. It doesn;t really matter what she reads here as long as it is honest from you.

2 months is nothing. I am 13 months after d-day, 10 months into a good recovery and I still hurt like a Mo' Fo' sometimes.

Breathe deep. you're doing OK. You want to save your marrieg just fine, all you have to do now is lock up that instinct that will fail you and press forward.

All blessings.

No, I am convinced that you DO want to save your marriage, which is why I keep posting, as annoying as I may be. ;p

T_D, let me give you an outline for YOU that I am aiming to guide you toward:

1. Recognize any abusive patterns (by which I mean an LB's or anything that constitutes abuse)

I want YOU to look into it, because I can't. Please try to be objective, read resources...http://drirene.com/ looks kind of silly but provides quick articles on abuse, so as to cut down on the amount you're reading...identify individual behaviors that are classified as abusive and eliminate them. If you didn't read the thread BA linked, I'll tell you this now to clarify: I do not characterize you as an abuser, but we all use abusive/manipulative tactics at times, and they are love busters--you're not alone in my using "abuse" because I do it to myself as well.

2. Plan A or Plan B, to win your wife OR to preserve your love.

If you can't make it, man, you can't make it and there is nothing wrong with that! Love should keep you there trying, but if it's not, you are Biblically entitled to divorce. That's probably the option I would take, actually. I don't think I could get over an affair. No shame to you on that. Okay?

I'm glad that you recognize that NOT tossing your wife to the curb is also a manly action, though. : )

How do you get over those very hurt, raw and oozing feelings for yours? Time. That's all I can say. It took me about a year to actually complete the forgiveness project and I was still stinging after that.

Just the other day, I got internally ticked off because OW-wannabe got a boyfriend. Believe me, I kept wishing ill-will toward her, until I decided to stop and realize that she's got nothing on me. That was May 2001 ago. Long time. These are wounds that are slow to heal [properly], and leave long-term scars.

Keep LBs out of it, keep things on an even keel as much as possible, and you'll heal just fine, and may be better than ever.

You know, if you're hit with some new information or wave of anger, why not try getting perspective about what you can do here? I don't recommend venting, esp. now because your wife reads here, but you can get some very helpful information without venting.

One more thing I want to attempt to advise on, but I need to review it. BRB.

~ZP

Hmm...I think I lost my post, but that's okay.

To deal with your feelings, rather than bursting at the seems from anger, or sucking it up and not expressing it at all, you could:

1. Do some energy draining exercise, and then:

2. Use "I feel" statements.

"I feel [upset] when [I see the toothpaste tube squeezed from the middle]."

And I'm bringing in something mundane, because I think it would be good to focus on little stuff right now. If you must express a feeling about your relationship, stick to this and leave it at that. If she starts to say something, you can say, "I just wanted to tell you how I was feeling. Do you suppose we could discuss it in detail later?"

Next, are you trying to get in your 15 hours/week of undivided attention? If so, how are you going about it? Is it consumed by ill-feelings, boredom and relationship-talk or avoidance?

If this describes your time together, let's brainstorm other options, okay? This can serve as a distraction for you both.

~ZP

TD

If I didn't know that you knew your wife was here also, reading your posts, I may be inclined to say you are expressing a level of frustration indicating an unwillingness to continue.

However, because you know she's going to read this I believe you are perhaps utilizing these boards, consciously or subconciously, as an attempt to ask/request/demand that your wife better get with the program and start filling up your needs...or else your love for her will be jeopardized to the inevitable point of extinction. This 3rd party way of communicating your needs in understandably as I have experienced the difficultly myself of wanting to be assured so badly that everything was going to be OK, on a daily basis but at the same time not being a needy/whinny whimp about it. I also have experienced the level of frustration in my mind as I try to rationalize why the heck my wife was not begging for my forgiveness. I believed if the shoe was on the other foot I'd being kissing my wife's butt not to leave me. Unfortunately, that's not how these things work. Time is the only thing you both need right now along with a calm, safe environment within which you both can recover.

BT, just cause he posts his frustration here doesn't mean he's ready to throw in the towel. He may just be trying to communicate with you when he finds you emotional unavailable to communicate with face to face. For a few days my wife, I beleive, even enjoyed being emotionally unavailable to me as I had done it to her for so long. But just as you BT are recovering as an individual (coming to terms with what has happened) in your own way, so is TD. If TD wants to communicate in the 3rd person maybe try posting and/or reading and discussing other MB Discussion Board Threads regarding other persons together. My wife and I found this to be very therapuetic as discussing others similiar situations enabled us to disect our own problems and issues in the 3rd person. It's also an incrediblely addictive and will occupy your minds together helping others overcome this difficult period in their lives.

Mr. Wondering

P.S. I just got your email an hour ago - do you still want to talk. Cell or home #

T_D


You mean like this:


If you are serious about saving your marriage then take the notion and THREAT of divorce off the table. It should not even be an option.

You are basically telling your wife "Work with me here OR ELSE!"

Your wife it telling you "Show me the money!" She needs to see an honest effort by you that she will not be coming back to the status quo that was a miserable marriage.

So now you two are at a stalemate and YOU refuse to work alone, i.e. Plan A. As long as the two of you are going to dig your heels in you're not going to get anywhere.

You know what BA, I think you hit it dead on.

"" As long as the two of you are going to dig your heels in you're not going to get anywhere. ""


Honestly, I agree 100% with what you said.

I know that I need to pick my head up and quit allowing my despair to control me. But knowing something and being able to consistently apply it is two different things altogether.

In all honesty, I don't know if I will ever be able to get over the A. I know that I want to. I know that I want more than anything to, to have that "better marriage than you have ever had before" picture that the MC talked about at our 1st meeting.

But, W said at MC that she doesn't believe I can get over it. I know that her belief in that is probably playing a major role in her not committing 100% to reconciling. And I can't tell her 100% that I can, only that I 100% want to.


Last night the MC asked that if she could tell me that in a few years W would be in love with me, I would be in love with W, our marriage would be strong and fulfilling and full of love, etc... could I get over the A? I said without hesitation "in a heartbeat". And I meant it, MEAN it.

I guess I am just having trouble getting over this first major mountain (if this is just a foothill than I am SO in trouble...!).


The MC, sensing my deep pain, and W's frustration at her perspective of me telling her she is not trying when she is (I acknowledge her efforts, only say they are not sufficient to help me cope right now), broached the subject of a temp seperation.

I will say that in my mind a seperation is just an easy way to start a D without the intense trauma up front. I really don't see any merit in it, atleast for me. It would be traumatic on the kids. We could attempt to explain it to them any way we wanted, to them it would be the same as a D.

I am willing to fight every stupid, immature, selfish, needy LB impulse I may have right now to avoid a seperation. To me that would be the death knell on my M, and I do not want it to end like that. If I end up divorcing, I want to go down fighting (for the M, not fighting with my W!)


I do want to know, for my own peace of mind, that if I end up divorced, I really did try as best as I could. My kids deserve no less, I deserve no less, and even though W became my personal Judas, her 12 years of faithfulness and devotion makes her deserving of no less....

T_D, I have no doubt that you have the will, the desire and the determination to see this through. I have no doubt that you are capable of working through the pain you are experiencing, and I have no doubt that your marriage is capable of being restored.

I don't know what to say to make the road any easier, to lighten your load. Just keep in mind that a lot of us here are pulling for you.

Unfortunately, not even close. I doubt we have had 15hrs total in the 3 1/2 weeks since D-day. Using this past week as an example, we may have had 90 minutes. And a good bit of that was because we went camping over the weekend, I stayed out by the fire after the kids went to bed, W came out to check up on me and we kinda got in to it due to me wallowing in despair at that time.

Ovet the last 2-3 weeks the only "alone" time we have is the 20 minutes driving to MC, the 20 minutes drivng back from MC (MC is once weekly), and the 5-10 minutes when we both go to bed, if we both go to bed at the same time.

I know that this is not good. BUT, the weekends we have spent taking our kids places to give them a sense of normalcy before school starts (starts today). We did absolutley nothing together as a family all summer until after D-day, so I guess we are trying to make it up to the kids.

Also, I have asked W to do a weekend getaway with me, making it clear that absolutley no SF was inferred, expected, or necessarily wanted, and W says she is not ready for that yet. Meaning she is not ready to spend a weekend alone with me I guess. I know that this is not ideal, but it is what it is.

I don't necessarily blame her. Conversation between us is difficult and awkward right now. It seems that we have trouble finding things to talk about.

Last night we went to a county fair with the kids and a friend of hers in from out of state. I consider myslef to be casual friends with this lady, and do really enjoy talking to her. She is very "air-headed" in a fun way, which I am as well when I am enjoying things. At first, she and my W talked as I tended the kids and I felt left out. All I could think was "why did I come? This is going to be torture. Is it time to go home yet?" All I did was fixate on my W and what she was / was not doing in regards to paying attention to me, etc...

Then, I started talking to other parents as we waited while the kids were on rides. I talked and joked to anyone standing near me. I talked to the ride operators and game operators (interesting people....), I started talking to the friend and joking around with her, being lighthearted. As soon as I began interacting with other people, joking around, having fun, I quit fixating on what W was or was not doing, and my mood lifted. By the end of the evening I was wanting to stay longer. I was feeling so good, so carefree.

I realized that when I fixate on W as my only source of happiness or social interaction, I drive myself nuts.

So, I am in a much better mood this morning. Sometimes, if I am not careful, it is easy to let myself fall in to a black well of despair where I feel like all my options are bad ones. Getting out and interacting with people helps me keep perspective.

W is starting IC weekly with MC while we continue joint MC once weekly. I wouldn't mind IC for myself as well.

I am about finished with SAA. I plan on going through it again to make some note cards. I am "OCD man" according to W, but I like my notes, they keep me on course. Sticky note pads are my security blanket at work and at home.....

I am vulnurable to this myself. I learned years ago that I have to take active steps to keep from getting too far down this path...

T-D, How about a whole pad of sticky notes printed up with those words on them? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I'm sorry this is so hard right now. I do believe you can do it. I'm glad you are continueing with MC'ing. What does your MC think about MB concepts?
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