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#1456412 08/20/05 02:26 PM
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I just found out Wednesday that my wife is cheating.
She is an architect and travels often for a project she is working on. We have 2 children, ages 2 and 5.
She had asked a couple weeks ago that we seperate. She says she loves me but is not in love with me. After reading some of your website, her emotional needs have not been met by me. I have demonstated a couple love busters, angry outbursts and selfishness. The last time we made love was in March so obviously she feels neglected. Lately (past 6-8 months) our lives have been so busy with work and the kids, it is seldom we get to have a conversation. I love her very much and can not imagine my life without her.
Is it to late? What can I do to start the healing?
Thank you for your time and for listening.

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smc...sorry you are here.

This is the best place to be this very moment. So many here are living your story. I don't have much time today, but read your post and know that weekends are the hardest time to go through if we are not working.

#1...breathe.
It is NEVER too late for your marriage.
#2 Read everything here at MB which will help alot.
#3...BREATHE!

The following was a post from faithfulwifecj (hope this helps until Monday when more people are posting as weekends are slow here)...you are in my prayers and I hope we can help,
holiday

Quote
WHAT TO EXPECT
You think you’re going to die-or you want to. It will feel like your heart has been ripped out of your chest while you’re still alive. You’re whole life will cave in. It may feel like you’ve lost everything you’ve ever worked for or dreamt of. Everything you THOUGHT you believed in will be destroyed. You may cry for days, 25 hours a day. You won’t be able to eat or sleep or even think AT ALL. Don’t think less of yourself if you give a thought to dying, because I think most people do; just be brave enough to reach out to someone-even here on MB.

We have four words of practical advice: 1) Do not give in to the temptation to buy a case of Jack and a box set of Merl. Yeah, it can be tempting to “numb out” and plunge into depression, but not advisable. 2) Buy lotion Kleenex, because if you buy regular Kleenex and cry this much, you will rub your eyes and nose raw; lotion Kleenex will not hurt so much. 3) Buy some soup, because you can’t swallow with that big lump in your throat; however, soup is liquid and warm and sort of nourishing, and at least it will be something in your stomach that you can choke down. 4) Come on here to MB as much as you can or go be with your mom or your sister or brother…people who care about you and will take care of you for a little while. We think almost everyone here on MB has been in your shoes and thought about wanting to die, so we understand what it’s like.

During this phase, the Wandering Spouse (WS) is usually still heavily into their affair fantasy. It’s still sort of a secret, and it’s based on addiction to the Other Person (OP). You, the Betrayed Spouse (BS) are still meeting some of their needs, but they are turning to the OP to meet other ones.

EN’s and LB’s. Okay, just a little bit you start to pull it together and you start to learn. You read here on the MB site…or read His Needs/Her Needs (HNHN) or LoveBusters (LB)…or even some of the other sites like Dr. Phil or DivorceBusters. You begin to get it--you realize you’ve been a jerk and haven’t appreciated what you had. You learn about Giver and Taker, and you discover the Love Bank. You grasp the concept of emotional needs (EN’s) and lovebusters (LB’s). You figure out what your own EN’s are and take a good guess what your WS’s might be. You know what your own LB’s are, and you recognize that you hurt your WS by LB-ing over and over again. You feel bad about yourself because you behaved like that. There is a major change within you, because you GET IT!! But for some reason your WS doesn’t see any change in you and doesn’t believe it’s real-they WILL say it’s just a temporary change to “get them back” and that you’ll go back to the same old, same old once they come back. You wonder, “Why can’t they see it? Why don’t they believe it’s real?”

During this phase, the affair (A) has been going along a little longer, but the WS is growing more hostile and vicious in order to justify their behavior. Maybe they move out or at least threaten divorce.


Plan A. Now that you have read and learned and seen your part in how your marriage (M) got to this point, you decide to put your learning into action. You make the effort to work on yourself and end all LB’s. You want to meet your spouse’s EN’s and you do your best, but they don’t want you to anymore. You’ll feel like you’re a doormat giving into their every capricious whim, and they’ll still keep acting vicious. It feels like a lose-lose situation because you’re killing yourself for them, and they’re killing you too! Very often a BS will incorrectly think that Plan A means Plan Doormat and you might let your WS just walk all over you. This part is very, very hard because it feels a lot like you are giving, Giving, GIVING and they are taking, Taking, TAKING without even giving you hope in return.

During this phase, WS’s will often “fence-sit.” They don’t really want to lose their house or their kids, and life with you may not have been perfect but they don’t want to lose what EN’s you did meet. By the same token, they are absolutely ADDICTED to the OP, and the OP makes them feel so good. They can’t seem to break away. Often, you’ll hear things like, “I need some space” or “I need time to myself to think.” It seems like they are perpetually confused and can’t make up their mind. The WS is cake-eating: getting EN’s met by you and by the OP. They want BOTH.


Exposure. In the best interest of your M, you expose the A to the WS’s parents, your parents, your pastor, and the people at your WS’s work-people who are in the best position to have a positive affect on your WS. Now the A is no longer a delicious “secret” and it is brought to the light of day (and truth). The WS WILL rage for about a week or two. RAGE!!!!!!! They’ll blame you for “doing this to them.” They’ll claim that now they can’t trust you. They’ll be furious that you invaded their privacy. They may even say, “If you expose this anymore I will divorce you” or “You will drive me into the arms of OP.” Everything will be aimed to make you look like the “bad guy.” They want to justify their choices and everything will be a reflection of how bad “you” are. They want to take the focus off of them. At this point, you are the last best hope for your M, so stand firm and don’t let their whirlwind of blame sway you from your course. Just remember that the WS made the choices and decisions to have the A, and all you did was burst the bubble of secrecy and let people know what is happening…they “did it to themselves” by deciding to have the A.

During this phase, the WS will be infuriated, will rage against the machine, will justify, rationalize and defend the indefensible. This is when the addiction of the A is most evident, because now their mom and dad, their work, and everyone knows-but they still can’t end it. Like a drug-addict, they will do anything and hurt anyone (even those they love) to get another fix of their drug…the OP. Keep that image of a drug-addict in mind, and envision the exposure as an intervention. No addict LIKES an intervention, and they fight against it tooth and nail, but in the end, it is in their best interests.


…at this point things can go one of two ways:
1) The WS softens their heart, admits they were wrong, wants to end the A and make things right, agrees to no contact (NC), and takes accountability measures like sharing email passwords, cell phone records, schedules, etc. If this is how your WS responds, then we would STRONGLY encourage you to have an equally soft heart, trust but confirm, and don’t hold it over their head forever. Yep, there is a LOT of damage done, and a lot from which to heal, but have a little empathy and compassion. As a couple you two can begin Recovery, discover what weaknesses lead to this A, and build a stronger, closer marriage.

2) The WS hardens their heart and continues despite being exposed. The raging and blaming continues. They refuse to admit they were wrong; they do ANY THING to continue the A; they go deeper underground and continue contact with the OP; they keep secrets and demand “privacy”-and they absolutely refuse any sort of counseling or coaching. If this is how your WS responds, then you might progress to Plan B.

Plan B. You decide it’s time for Plan B, but the thought of cutting off contact with your WS is terrifying. You are SURE that you will drive them straight into the arms of the OP and straight to divorce court. But against all your instincts, you take a leap of faith, hoping against hope that this will finally be the thing that wakes your WS up. You agonize over every word of your Plan B letter, and you let folks on the forum critique it. And then finally, one day, you give your WS the letter-this is probably one of the hardest things you’ll ever do. It is SO scary!!!! In some ways you are just as addicted to them as they are to their lover. The first few hours and days, you will come up with a zillion “reasons” why you HAVE TO contact them. “It’s for the kids,” you’ll say. “I’m just passing along information that they need to know.” Basically, you are so afraid that you’re losing them that you feel compelled to do something!

The very best thing you can do for yourself, your WS, and your M is to find a REALLY GOOD FRIEND who will sit up with you for a couple days and talk you out of it. Like someone who has an unhealthy attachment, you will have an enormously strong desire to break the Plan B, and all this will do for your WS is demonstrate to them that you don’t mean what you say, and that you don’t think enough of yourself to follow through on your own word. STAND STRONG. Get someone to be with you and don’t call. It will be a very rough couple of days, but you will get through it. Perhaps you could go for 15 minutes at a time (“I won’t call for 15 minutes, and in 15 minutes I’ll re-evaluate if I even want to call”) because 30 minutes or an hour is WAY too long!

When you establish Plan B, expect your WS to be MAD. They will NOT like the idea that you are taking back control of your life or the situation. They will be angry that you took away one of the pieces of their cake. They will make threats and say things to hurt you in order to get you to react (and by reacting, we mean contacting them). They will try all kinds of tricks to get you to back off of your Plan B. Expect this, and recognize it for what it is: an attempt to re-engage you in the cake-eating lifestyle.

When Plan B works, it works precisely BECAUSE the WS is driven into the arms of the OP. Now, the WS has to depend entirely upon the OP to meet all their needs. Now that the A is no longer a delicious secret, they have to deal with all of “real life”-bills, and kids and everything. When the A was a secret, the WS thought it was going to be “heaven” to be with the OP. In real life, the kids are hurt and angry and don’t like the OP at all!! In real life, the OP doesn’t provide the big house and new car that the WS has learned to enjoy. In real life, they start to argue over bills and having to live in an apartment. In real life, the OP has to go to work and isn’t always around to whisper sweet nothings. In real life, the OP is a cheater, and starts to see someone on the side-cheating on your WS -or- the OP didn’t really want to leave his or her M for your WS, they just wanted to continue the secret.


ONGOING THINGS YOU WILL EXPERIENCE:

Self-pity - bad choices: You’ll make mistakes, some bad decisions, react poorly at times. You’ll turn into a human marshmallow, maybe even embarrass yourself. You’ll do things that are “out of character” and not really you. You’ll feel as low as the dirt under a slug, and feel worthless, unloved and unlovable. A lot of the time, you may feel like one gigantic MISTAKE. You may keep going back to a WS that abuses you. You may let your WS trample your boundaries-or shoot, you may not even HAVE boundaries! You may just completely lose it and LB all over the place. You may be tempted to have an affair of your own. You may become a complete doormat-or on the other hand, you may become domineering or controlling. You may want to “MAKE” them come to MB. Just remember that this is natural and we’ve all done it.

The Rollercoaster: You will feel like killing yourself or your WS today, and feel like you “just might make it” the next day. You will feel completely sucked dry and torn up one day, and hopeful the next. You will be “up” then “down” then “up” then “down”-and eventually you will get a little seasick from the rollercoaster of emotions. Just remember that eventually it does level out, whether your M recovers or just you do.

Babbling: The WS will babble pretty much as long as they are involved with the OP in the A. They will completely revise history. They’ll say they’ve been miserable for YEARS, or you’ve neglected and hurt them for YEARS. They may even say, “We were NEVER in love” or “I have never loved you like a wife or husband should.” Actually, Orchid is our WS Babbling expert,Reverse Babble, but just remember that this is also pretty normal. A lot of what comes out of the WS’s mouth is meant to shift blame or focus off of them and onto you, so don’t take it to heart. Even if there is a modicum of truth to what they’re saying (and there most likely will be), know that you two WERE once in love, and DID have some happy times and loving years. See if you can learn to recognize WS Babble and practice reverse babble if you can get the hang of it.


FNCJ and DD

--------------------
Me: BS, 43yo INFP; exH: abusive, bipolar, BPD, serial cheater, ESTJ; Divorce final 5-23-03; NewBF: 47yo, single dad, INTP

"There is no key to happiness...the door is always open"

My Story
faithfulwifecj@yahoo.com

Last edited by holiday; 08/20/05 03:25 PM.

M 013082 BS me 47 FWH 44 DD 112904 NC 113004 S 22 D 15 Tell the truth. There will be less things to remember.
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Thanks Holiday
That post helped, I was amazed at how accurate the information was. I have hope that maybe things can change.
I have ordered some of the MB books, and am ready to start the recovery.

Thank you for your help
Smc

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"I have demonstated a couple love busters, angry outbursts and selfishness. The last time we made love was in March so obviously she feels neglected."

In past couple weeks I have done the soul searching thing and realized my temper trigger is my childern ages 2 and 5.
The 2 year old is my angel the 5 year old is the trigger.
Knowing this I spoke to a coach last week for a plan of attack, which I feel really good about. Although there has been some anoyances, I have been able stay in control and have no real flare ups. Which in turn works its way down through the other issues.
Right now I feel the only reason I am around is to watch the kids, she pretty much does what she wants and knows the kids will be taken care of. I guess this is the doormat stage.
I have been reading "How to Survive an Affair" I have'nt gotten to the solution section yet.

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Since my last post I have not shown my temper, any negativities, or criticizms towards my W or the kids.
I have gotten some positive responses from the W, she says she has noticed a change in the kids for the better, but this doesn't mean she will change her mind about us.
She said today I looked sad and that she felt bad.
I don't feel sad, in fact I feel better than I did a couple months ago and definately better than I did 4 weeks ago.
I am not sure what she is getting at.
I really not sure how to respond to that statement.
Anyway the 180 does seem to be getting some positives.

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Quote
"I have demonstated a couple love busters, angry outbursts and selfishness. The last time we made love was in March so obviously she feels neglected."


...I have been reading "How to Survive an Affair" I have'nt gotten to the solution section yet.


When you get to the solution stage, come back and talk to us - we can help you through it.

It will NOT be easy. Your WW is cake eating. When you get ready to save your marriage, let us know, we can help.

And yes, right now you are being a doormat.

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I have been trying to save my marriage.
I have not shown the LB's.
I've been doing a 180 with the temper, which has shown some positive responses from my WW and from the kids.

Last edited by smc; 09/17/05 03:30 PM.
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SMC, I would say you are in Plan A. As far as being a doormat... that depends I think. How long did the A go on? Is it still on-going? Have you told her that you will not tolerate being in a M that is not monogomous and that she must end ALL contact with the OM?

Putting forward your boundaries of self-respect (not pretending to be happily married to a wife you know isn't being faithful), while at the same time holding up the mirror to your own behavior (the lovebusters) is a good thing. IF your wife is cake-eating (still has contact with OM) then you will want to do things to bring that to a head by NOT tolerating it. No human being has to live like that, knowing that when she says she's running to the store, she really isn't - or worse yet she just blantantly says she's going out on a date!

I believe you are trying to save your M, smc. You keep working on it, you can turn this around! I think almost a month of paying attention to your LB's and reducing or eliminating angry outbursts and selfish demands is a ton of progress. It will benefit your WW, you KIDS!!!, and yes, even you yourself.

Are you in individual counseling or marital counseling????


BW 43 me
FWH 39
M 1992; DD 18. 13
OC 8-05 - no contact
In recovery 8 years
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Thank you for the response.
I have spoken with a marriage counselor a couple times by myself, I have another appointment in a week.
My wife is still seeing the OM. This is a long distance A, she only sees him every couple weeks while going to the project site for work (2 hour flight). She emails him and calls him daily as the phone bill will show. She also has no problem letting me know she will be leaving an extra day early so she can spend time with the OM. She doesn't come out and say that, she uses the "I need space" excuse. Everything I've read says the A should die a natural death.
How long do you think a long distance A could last? I would think because of the separation, not too long.
She knows how I feel about the A. I haven't pushed it, because I am afraid of pushing her away further as she said she "let us go" a few months ago. So for now I am trying to make some bank deposits. I know they are small deposits , but they are deposits none the less. She has mentioned that she told a close friend. Her friend was shocked because this isn't her usual behavior. It seems to me she is looking for approval. I am really not sure as to my next step. So for now I'll stick with anger management, I certainly feel good about the progress I've made.

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I'm glad with the progress you've made too with the anger management. And I'm glad you are seeing a counselor.

However, perhaps it IS time to push things along as far as her A. You are right, the A can die a semi-natural death at your W's hand. But that can be sped up if you demand the respect that you deserve. By that I mean, refuse to be in a love triangle with her and OM! There will come a time (soon?!?!?!) that she has to make a choice. Yes, she may "choose" OM. That's when you consider a move to Plan B. Sometimes when the M looks like it is completely over, and there is no hope at all, it is actually the closest to surviving & thriving that it's been in a long time.

My WH's A would have just gone on & on if I hadn't finally said "Fine, you're free. Sounds like you made up your mind. I don't want to talk about all the things I did wrong in our M anymore then." That made him say "hubba, hubba, wah?" (not literally).

If you were to take the (enormous feeling) risk of telling your WW that you are ready to let her go if that's what she really wants, you might find what we often find - she comes running home to you. But it can't be a game.

Have you read "When the One You Love Wants to Leave" or "Love Must Be Tough" or "Surviving an Affair"? The first books were my guide after d-day, read Surviving after we were in recovery.

So, for me to get this straight, she's living with you, and seeing him every couple of weeks, and emails and calls him daily? And you are living with her knowing this is going on? You are living daily with a pain that you do not have to try to bear. You will feel so much better (as scary as it is!) if you draw respectful boundaries for yourself and your M.

It took friends months to get me to the point of what I am telling you, that it really was time to tell him it was over because he would not leave OW. Finally once I told him, I meant it. And he came home. Then it happened all over again, and we went through it all over again.

Get up the next day, try again.

Be encouraged, you are doing a great job. Just read those books and keep posting here, I KNOW you want to save your Marriage! BUT, this A could drag out for a very long time if you leave it to die a (completely) natural death. That may take longer than you can bear, there are things you can do to speed it up. Start with "Love Must Be Tough" would be my advice.

There is no way to make what you are going through not painful. But there are more painful ways to experience it, and less painful ways. Drawing firm respectful boundaries makes it less painful. And actually is (thank God) the best way to also save your M. What a coincidence!


BW 43 me
FWH 39
M 1992; DD 18. 13
OC 8-05 - no contact
In recovery 8 years
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Thank you for the advise.
First, I appolgize for being such a newbie. I am not sure what you mean by "drawing respectful boundries".
Should I ask that she not "rub my nose in it" so to speak?
We are still living in the same house, I moved a mattress into a spare bedroom, which is where I am sleeping now.
I am finishing "Surving an affair" and also started reading "Divorce Remedy" I'll look into getting "Love must be tough".
One of the things that is hardest for me is the kids, right now I am the one spending time with them. I've been trying to keep things as normal as possible for them. I have another book "His needs her needs and kids", which puts the kids first, as it should be. Its definately a hard decision because I wonder how it will affect them. I guess what it boils down to is, how much pain am I willing to endure?

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Hello SMC;

My wife also had a long distance affair (750 miles). It started in February of this year and thanks to MB it ended when OM broke it off with my wife around June 5th, 2005. Last contact by my wife, for "closure" happened about June 14, 2005. OM was a high-school sweetheart my wife reconnected with through classmates.com (very typical). If you click on my user name above left then click show all users posts you can page back to some of my wife's very first posts. We were in early recovery then but she was still deep in the fog. Now our marriage is better than it has ever been. We both have truly gotten "it" by applying just the MB principles off this site, in the discussion boards and in the books.

My suggestion. If you want a lot more advice please restart a new thread over on the infidelity-General Questions II board. There are a lot more users on-line at any given time and a lot of the "pro's" hang out there. Though I like to take a peek over here from time to time to find and assist newbie's like yourself most of the time my wife and I are over there.

By the way, I have not seen the word "exposure" in your thread. Have you exposed your wife? I never did, but I could have ended the whole thing a lot faster if I had. I didn't know it but my wife's OM was a chicken $hit and would have run faster than crap if I had even just exposed to his parents (whom he was living with at the time after getting divorced and filing bankruptcy..can u say winner).

Other questions...Have you started to protect your backside in case your marriage doesn't work out? What about custody of the kids? Your wife can't legally force you to allow her to move out of state with them (or beyond 100 miles in Michigan, my state). If you intend to fight for custody start keeping a detailed journal of everything you do for those kids and documenting (even if only by seruptiously emailing wife) your wife's affair, abandonment, daily failures, etc. This journal be indispensible in any court proceedings.

What about snooping? Does she have you con'ed into believing she has a right to privacy? You need to document her infidelity for some many reasons...legally to prove it in court in a custody battle or to effect the property settlement (For example, In Michigan the betrayed spouse gets 5% more than 50-50 split) ...and also to overcome her denials when you expose her to friends and family. You need keylogger, voice activated digital voice recorder especially if you ever get the feeling you are being set up by her to make any claim you are abusive to her or kids...this is a tried and true method for a wayward wife that knows she's going to lose custody will attempt to get it)

This guy she's seeing is no friend and never will be again. Friends don't sleep with married women.

Hope to see you around. We are all rooting for you.

God bless & Good luck, Mr. Wondering


FWW ~ 47 ~ Me
FBH ~ 50 ~ MrWondering
DD ~ 17
Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered

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Hello Wonderings
Thank you for the post, I'll move my responses to the infidelity-General Questions II board.


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