Froz dear...

Oh, do I recognize myself in you! I could have answered exactly what you did. What you have to say is very valid. I asked the same thing many times.

Know who helped me out in sorting out what was my responsibility and what was my FWH's responsibility? Steve Harley, that's who!

I stayed right where you are for a very painfully long time. I wish I had the answer for you now too. But I don't. It's exactly this type of situation that can cause the most pain - and my husband and I couldn't navigate our way through it either.

That's why we coached with Steve Harley. We coached until we learned to be each other's coach. And (not saying this is true for you Froz), but I had the most to learn! Ugh...
Hard to admit even now.

I couldn't tell which was my stuff to deal with and what was my husband's. Coaching with Steve saved us enormous pain.

Any chance you guys could coach with him too?

The beauty of your answer Froz, is that you did tell him what he can do differently the next time he's faced with this, so that you can learn to feel safe.

If you were able to tell him without hitting him over the head with it...all the better. When I was at your stage I didn't know how to do it without Lbing at the same time.

Are you both Ok with this - can you use it as a learning experience and move on? Or possibly, is there more that needs to be learned for either of you?

I have mentioned this several times to my husband over the course of the last few months. I even told him the other day that it would be something I would like for my birthday or, perhaps Christmas.

He seems rather concerned with the cost.

We are anything but "Ok" right now.

I'm not sure what there is to learn at the moment. I thought we had already covered this and like situations. We had, and he seemed to be doing a much better job with considering me and with accountability.

I'm pretty tired of hurting, honestly.

frozen,


Then don't punish him when he is honest. So what if you asked him before he told you what transpired. When asked he apparently did not withold information from you.


This is a no win situation for patriot. I think much of your pain is self-inflicted. Patriot cannot help you with that. When you begin to feel safe is up to you.

This isn't about honesty. It's about being considerate. So, are you saying that because he was honest about it (after the fact), he's therefore earned the right to be inconsiderate, perhaps because honesty is difficult for him? This also isn't guesswork for him. I have told him precisely what I need from him.

Froz, I am in exactly the same situation. I have clearly spelled out exactly what I would like H to do in situations like this. He ignores what I ask for, does what he wants, and then -- just as you described -- will talk about it *if asked directly.* Otherwise, no information is offered and it all remains a secret.

Then he wants credit for his "honesty," claims he doesn't understand what the problem is, and tells me it's MY fault that I don't trust him and things aren't getting better.

????????????????????
Mulan

Edited to add:

***This is a no win situation for patriot. I think much of your pain is self-inflicted. Patriot cannot help you with that. When you begin to feel safe is up to you.***

I can't believe I'm reading this.

Protecting his wife and marriage is a "no-win situation" for a spouse??

Froz's pain is "self-inflicted?" (Yeah, I'm told mine is, too. I just hallucinated all those lies WH told me.)

Patriot cannot help Froz with this? He can't do anything that would regain his wife's trust??

Whether Froz feels safe is up to HER???

So, let me get this straight: people like Froz and me can ask all day long for things that would help us feel better and feel safer, but it's unreasonable to expect our (F)WSs to go to this much trouble and actually DO them for us.

We are just supposed to relax, stop worrying and be happy with whatever our (F)WSs choose to tell us (or not tell us.) If we cannot just relax and believe whatever a known liar and deceiver tells us (or doesn't tell us,) then the problems in the relationship are OUR fault.

Right?

Did I wander onto the wrong site by mistake? I thought this was MB. Maybe I got lost.
Mulan

frozen,


posted earlier by ba109:


I say that is a no win situation because patriots actions will likely never be as "precise" as your needs demand.

Mulan,

I'm not sure what lines you are reading between. I was referring to the lunch situation.

Froz ~ I'm sorry I haven't had time yet to respond to you further on the other thread.

Patriot made a mistake. He has patterns to unlearn too.

You have a choice right now. You can be right, (and a victim) or you can be married. You do have the right to be safe, you definitely deserve to be loved the way you need to be loved and Patriot should do that for you.

You certainly have the right to be angry. But you do not have the right to punish him with your anger. It is not the job of a spouse to mete out consequences and punishement.

Especially, as you and I have discussed, is that your anger has more sources than Patriot. And not only do you not have the right to lovebust him with angry outbursts because of his actions, you certainly don't have the right to lovebust him for the actions of many many other people who have hurt you also.

This is where your fear and anger, driving your choices of behavior, will result in the opposite of what you desire.

Ulitimately, ba109 is right...Froz, you must learn to trust yourself. You will truely feel safe when you learns to trust your own instincts, judgement and ability to love and care for yourself.

Froz,

I do believe if I remember correctly - Steve held my husband accountable for me being "safe" in our marriage, and he held me accountable for my husband to be "safe" in our marriage. Yep he held each of us responsible for the other's safety.

Again, I was the one who struggled the most with this. I had the hardest time not spitting LBs every time I spoke.

And my husband made mistakes too. And I LBd as a result - it was trial and error until we felt we were starting to hit our stride and make some progress.

I really want this for you both too. The emotional pain isn't worth the $$$ saved by not getting the RIGHT MC. Steve is a master at issues just like this. He will tell you what to do and even more importantly he will tell you what NOT to do.

There were many times he told me I was the one impeding progress. And the more I coached my husband, the further behind in our recovery we would be. I wasn't supposed to educate him.

My job was to make deposits into his love bank by meeting his top 5 emotional needs. My job was to protect him from Love Busters. The end...that was what my focus was to be until Steve had a chance to coach my husband into his individual "recovery plan".

I think I am missing something here.

Am i correct is reading that Pat went to lunch with a large number of work colleagues, some of whome were women, and two of them shared his car and his table, along with others , but was never chaperoned by less than tens of fellow staff ?

And Froz was really hurt by this ?

Bob, as I understand it, Froz are hurt merely by the fact that Patriot didn’t inform her about the lunch beforehand or at least phone her and let her know about it during or directly after the lunch... Patriot only informed her about this at the end of the day. Also, Patriot didn’t volunteer the info out of his own but only after she asked him about his comings and goings at work during that day... However, I give Patriot credit for the fact that he did tell her about it. It’s clear that the lunch incident was totally innocent and unintentional, but the mistake Patriot made was to not inform Froz about it a.s.a.p.

In normal circumstances (where there isn’t a history of infidelity) this whole situation would seem bizarre and paranoid… I mean, after all it was just 2 women who shared Patriot’s car & table with a lot of other colleagues present, but considering the circumstances and the fact that they are still in recovery (from Patriot's betrayal), I can understand Froz’s feelings & unhappiness about this. I think if I was in Froz's shoes, I would feel exactly the same.

BUT at the same time I can also understand Patriot's point of view...obviously he feels frustrated & unhappy with all the 'drama' about this incident. For him the lunch inside the group setting was no 'big deal' and I'm sure Froz's reaction makes him feel that she doesn't trust him enough yet and still 'doubt' him after all the efforts towards recovery he has so far put into the M. No FWS wants to feel like walking on 'eggshells' and like being in prison & 'monitored' forever.