Maybe I can help?

You said...

"I do not understand either why you are getting so much blame for what is wrong here."

I think this is where you are getting misdirected Mulan ---> no one is discussing "blame" but you.

Trying to intimately connect to one's spouse is never about ~blame~.

Are you ever intimately attracted to anyone who is trying to lay blame on you? Does a person trying to blame you feel like a person with whom you would want to open up emotionally?

The "something wrong" in a marriage is not something that will be repaired when the correct person to "blame" has been identified !!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

The "something wrong" in a marriage usually gets worse with more blame fixing.

The "something wrong" in a marriage usually needs more intimacy .... not more blame.

If we want ~less intimacy~ in our relationships, I'd say looking for who is to "blame" is a way to guarantee less intimacy.

Does that help?

Thank you for trying, but no, I do not understand.

I do not understand the advice that Frozen is getting. At all.
Mulan

Mulan .... You have a problem in your marriage and it is functioning as a lens through which you view other peoples' marriage issues.

Look for ways to create intimacy NOT for ways to locate blame.

Are "blame" and "responsibility" two different things?
Mulan

Yes, you are responsible for your own actions and feelings not the other person.

How willing are you to create increased intimacy ~even if~ it means temporarily letting go of either "blame" or "responsibility" for the marriage problems?

Are you aware that if there is an increased sense of intimacy in the marriage many of the problems are easily addressed?

I do not understand any of this. Why bother to be married at all, if you are not allowed to ask for what you need and are to only make *yourself* happy no matter what your partner does? Why not just stay single?

It sounds to me like Frozen is being told the same thing that I am often told: "If your are hurt, that's your choice. It should not matter how your partner treats you. If you wanted to be happy, you would be happy in spite of what he does. You are not allowed to look to your partner as a source of either happiness or pain, because if you do you are "blaming" them for your own feelings."

You said this was not about blame, but about creating intimacy. Okay. Well, I do not know how to create intimacy without opening myself up to being affected by what that other person does. Isn't that the whole point of intimacy in the first place?

You cannot open yourself to true intimacy *and* keep your walls up at the same time. The laws of physics do not allow this.

If you don't stand up for yourself when your partner treats you inconsiderately, you're a doormat who should want better for herself.

If you DO stand up for yourself and ask for better treatment, you are "placing blame" and "should be making yourself happy instead of expecting someone else to do it."

I do not understand this one bit.

Doesn't Harley have an article on this site called "How the Co-Dependency Movement is Ruining Marriages"? This debate sounds like the exact opposite of his article.
Mulan

***How willing are you to create increased intimacy ~even if~ it means temporarily letting go of either "blame" or "responsibility" for the marriage problems?***

Pep, I did this for a number of years. He gobbled up every drop of "intimacy" I offered, and then every Monday morning or every trip he took went right straight back to acting like a single man. When he returned home, he wanted to go back to that yummy physical and emotional intimacy that he liked so much. He thought this was a GREAT arrangment and to this day insists he can't understand why I refuse to go along with it any longer.

Should I live like this? Is this what MB recommends? Because this is what happens when I offer intimacy, and it sounds like it's what happens to Frozen, too. That's why I can relate to what is happening to her. The partner will take every drop of trust and intimacy that is offered but it will NOT be returned -- not in anything close to similar measure.

So the partner gets to eat well and heartily from as many plates as they like, but we have to wait ONLY for the crumbs the partner dishes out and have no right to ask for anything more? And if this does not work for us, it's because we "choose" not to be happy about it?

"Please, sir, can I have some more?"
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND DON'T YOU DARE ASK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Pep,
I read on 'that' thread that many onlookers are seeing that Pat is doing his best to meet Froz's needs but no effort is ever good enough.

Mulan and some OTHER onlookers are seing that Pat seems to not be doing the right things or not doing them consistently enough.

It's my guess Mulan was referring to how many or most onlookers appeared to be 'blaming' or apportioning the major responsibility for her dissatisfaction with Patriots efforts to Froz's high standards for personal safety from Pat.

I see no projection of blame culture from Mulan's sitch to any other, but I could be being thick and only seeing the obvious there.

Are you living like this?

***Should I live like this?***

***Are you living like this?***

No, I am not, but the advice I am getting here seems to be telling I should -- to just take what little I can and learn to be happy with that.

I offered to POJA anything and everything, but this has been soundly and angrily refused as "controlling." So no, I am not living what I described in my post above -- not anymore.
Mulan

Are you happy with what you have?

***Are you happy with what you have? ***

No. Of course not. I am not happy with half a marriage. I know I will have to leave. I am taking steps to do that. DS17 graduates high school in May of next year. I will not leave until he is an adult. I will not risk WH moving someone else in here while DS is still at home.

I do not want to leave, but I know I have no choice - not if I want to have any sort of life in the future.

WH is simply no longer interested in having a full-time marriage. He was for about the first ten years of our marriage and was a great husband, but then he found out how much fun it is to be a corporate big shot with a cigar in his mouth and an office girl on each arm. The girls can't be there if his wife is at his side, so that's why I had to go.

Plain and simple, he wants to be single at work and married at home. He got away with that for too long and it's too late to change his mind now. He insists he sees no reason why this should not work as long as he comes home to me "at the end of the day."

I am blamed for all the problems because I refuse to go along with this arrangement. He flatly refuses to POJA anything.

Sorry for the repetiton. I don't know what else I could have done. Even my kids are begging me to get a divorce.

I just joined in the discussion because it seemed that a lot of Frozen's situation is similar to mine. I was not really looking for any more advice about my own situation, though it is appreciated; it's just that I know it's long past any help and people are tired of posting to me. I know that unless and until I finally move out, nothing will ever change.

The truth is, Mulan is a head case with a bad bout of PTSD. That's just the way it is. I thought everybody on MB knew that by now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Mulan

I am taking steps to do that.

what steps have you taken?

I am blamed for all the problems because I refuse to go along with this arrangement.

You are "blamed" for what exactly and by whom? Be specific.

He flatly refuses to POJA anything.

And what is your response to this?

Even my kids are begging me to get a divorce.

Why is that? How do children figure into the adult decision-making?

I just joined in the discussion because it seemed that a lot of Frozen's situation is similar to mine.

I have no business telling you to whom you might post ... but I do not see much similarity in your situations ... after all .... Patriot is HERE and he is trying to fix what he broke. Your H is not. I found some of your comments to be highly disrespectful of Patriot's efforts. There is a saying in AA ~progress, not perfection~.

I was not really looking for any more advice about my own situation, though it is appreciated; it's just that I know that unless and until I finally move out, nothing will ever change.

I nearly pulled you out of another MB conversation recently .... when you said( to a hesitant and frightened BS) something like ---> "Unless you make a change yourself, nothing will change in your marriage." <--- I almost choked on the irony of your making that observation looking outward instead of inward.

You have other options ... moving out is only one of them.

The truth is, Mulan is a head case with a bad bout of PTSD. That's just the way it is. I thought everybody on MB knew that by now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[b]You can't scare me away Miss head-case....

I am in a very bad state tonight and I don't think it would be productive for me to post anymore.

Thank you anyway.
Mulan

Mulan,

I'm sorry you're having a rough night. I hope that you return when you're feeling better. I am learning a lot from your thread, as well. Please take care.

Froz

"Progress - not perfection"...I like that. A good motto for me to apply, not only to others, but for myself.

Mulan,

I just wanted to post a brief response to what you said and I hope to be on MB more tomorrow.

I have to repsectfully disagree with a statement you made about the advice you are getting is only to be staying as you are and living as you are taking only what you "can get" and being happy.

You have had many many people post to you and I wonder if you can keep all of us straight.I know I sometimes forget however it has long been clear that you do remain in that home with your WH and your son for some reason that does not benefit you at all and you come here and,excuse the term,gripe about it all the time.You have been here for years and are still trapped in the quagmire.

What has always upset me here is when I see people do that over and over without making any changes to their state of living.It's also long been clear that your WH is not going to do anything to improve your marriage so no MB principles or any amount of waiting longer is going to change that.I have long held that argument with you,as only one MB'er who has considered your circumstances.

I just don't understand what it is that keeps you in this constant state of turmoil/unhappiness,unwilling and/or unable to make any changes for yourself and a better way of life when you told me before,among other's I am sure,that you knew you should leave.I do not understand the motives for that when choice is available.It seems so crystal clear to me.

Anyway,I hope to be back tomorrow to discuss more.

O

In fairness to Mulan, sometimes we get locked in a game of patience.

I'm in one now, and I know how it feels. I'm living in an abusive, toxic environment. But I'm staying here for other reasons -- kids, principally.

Given that, one can do what one can to minimize the trauma while one waits out circumstances?

For instance, couldn't WH move out? Sleep in a separate room? Could you start looking for stateside work, or something? Could you make friends in a new community so that you won't be interacting with the folks who have participated in your drama?

What CAN you change? It might be more than you think.

AMM....

I am certainly fine with a game of patience , but correct me if I'm wrong, wouldn't the patience game include a certain element of acceptance?

If one is going to sit something out until circumstances change, would it not be benificial to make the most out of any circumstances one was being patient with?

In other words ... be as happy as possible with 'what is' until it no longer 'is' ?

Seems to me AMM, this is what you are doing. Accepting imperfect circumstances, not bemoaning your own choice to wait things out patiently, making the most of what you have now.