(((((FF)))))))

I just caught up with this. Please don't say that you hate yourself. The situation right now is not your fault. You have tried so hard for so long. You are in a lot of pain right now.
Look after yourself !! Don't subject yourself to any more pain!!

That is what I meant MF4M. I don't want DD to know that! What is killing me is she figured this stuff out months ago, she was afraid to tell me. What I am asking is when she asks me, what do I say? I have sheltered her from this stuff for 1.5 years! This OW/OC stuff is not going away. I am not saying I will volunteer stuff, I am asking what do I say?

12 year old children have a lot more nous than you're all giving them credit for.

When I was 11 there was a family "secret" that the adults thought they were keeping from me. Nothing to do with adultery. I knew, knew, knew there was something up and felt powerless and more upset than if I had been told the truth (which I found out as an much older teenager).

When I was 12 I was sure my father was having an A. No evidence, just a gut feeling (which I discovered my sister also felt at the same time). I still don't know whether he was or wasn't.

Jen

That is it exactly Jen. She feels powerless. I KNOW she is a child, my God I would lay down in front of an oncoming truck for that child!

Alright maybe I am not making sense but do you know how badly I am hurting and messed up right now?

Yes, I do. E-mail me.

I just did

i would wait....it hurt me very much to meet my half-sister...to see my dad with his "new" family that he chose me over

i was about 11 years old, my sister was 10, my older sisters were 15, 16, 17

my younger sister and i never got over the feeling-we never got close to her

just my experience and thoughts

Faithful:

I feel for you.. but haven't gotten a chance to know you well on the forum.

Do you want to hear it from someone who had the experience of knowing about her F's numerous As as a child?

My mother involved me in all of this as a child...

It was scary and has affected my life dramatically...

I'm with Pep and Mom on this one...

Dare I step in? I've got some data points to add to the mix.

Way back when as a child only barely older than FF's DD, I had the dubious honor of telling my mother she was being an idiot and that father was cheating on her and she kept falling for his same old crap. I was quite a little Pep then (a compliment Dear!) and had no problem saying all of this to Mum who just wouldn't, couldn't believe me. I knew the score pretty damn well. Mum didn't.

Despite MY rage at father and his wandering ways and ultimate abandonment when Mum got sick, Mother spent much time standing up for her love and and her rights as a wife. She set a decent example of grace and I didn't have ANY respect her much THEN, but I sure did respect her later. She let me know I could count on her to stand up for what she believed in. She taught me to do the same. Even when everyone else disagreed.

The father DID abandon us and started a new family with a warthog. Moving forward in time, my brother visited the father's new house and commented to me about all of the pictures he had of himself in activities with OTHER children. I was DEVASTATED. My father left our family in poverty, left my mother for dead, threatened to kill her when she didn't die fast enough, forgot how to spell my name - HELLO?! Sally! Beat me when he felt like it and what finally got to me? He loved OTHER children but not my brother or me.

Back when, I was old enough to choose for myself whether or not I wanted to take part in father's life with OW. My mother was supportive of whatever I decided. I chose no because I thought the whole thing stank! My brother chose yes because he wanted to be a part of his father's life. In the end both my brother and I were rejected by the father before he died. We rejected him back in return.

To this day I still wonder if I have brothers and sisters I don't know about. I have no way to find out. I've searched my soul plenty and have discovered I don't really want to know them if they exist. My brother felt the same way when he got older. But he didn't then. As a kid, he wanted to know the new family too. He felt like they were his family.

Neither my brother nor myself grew up to be cheaters. My bro would do any drug on the planet but he'd have sooner cut his throat than cheat on a girlfriend. I've never cheated either. The compulsion to do differently than the rat of a father was that strong. Who knows what the future will bring for me, maybe I will cheat someday but that day hasn't come yet.

The point I am trying to make is this. Children, though still children aren't stupid. They just aren't wise. They are capable of making their own decisions. If FF's DD wants to see OC, that is her decision and at the age of 12, if she wants to see OC badly enough she will find a way. Better for FF to best choose how best to support her DD before, during and after such a visit. It's a bad situation but one that is highly individualized. There can't be a true right or wrong.

Pep, my mother never once questioned my decision to turn my back on the father. She never once tried to get me to go visit. Never once pushed me to call. She never encouraged me to even give him a hug when he visited. I made my choices clear from age 12 how I felt about all that. The father didn't even leave our house until a couple of years after, but I still didn't want anything to do with him before then. I thought he was scum.

On the other hand, her other child wanted to be with the father. Mum took care of his travel plans, made all kinds of vacation arrangements for them, listened to his talks of their times spent together and generally made my brother's excursions as enjoyable as possible. She even went so far as to keep me quiet and show my brother respect for his choices when I would have railed on him for being such an idiot as to go spend time with OW (who really was a warthog) and father and kids.

Same family. Different choices. In the end it didn't matter anyway except for this: Our mother gave us what we wanted. Our mother respected us as human beings with regard to our relationship with the father. As adults we appreciated that having such a big divide between us two kids must have made her situation that much worse and she still tried to do her best to take care of us and love us and provide some sense of stability for us in a completely unstable, unacceptable environment.

I am not bitter for Mum's choices for herself or for us. It could have been so much worse!

Sally

I am sorry I never intended to start a board war. Call me stupid or whatever but I am sorry.

Sally I didn't know about your childhood. I am sorry. Must have made Phil's A even harder.

You have nothing to be sorry for, FF!

Also, it doesn't look like a board war to me. It looks like a wealth of information to include personal opinions, experiences, and thoughts. From these, you can learn from the things others share and make your own decision. You're quite lucky to have so many people pointing out so many options and the possible consequences of these options.

Obviously there are quite a few people who care about you, with good reason.

Faithful,

No worries. The hardest thing about Phil's A was, and still is, the lying and the adandonment. The hardest thing about childhood was childhood! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I was a strong kid and despite a rat-dad when I was older, the love I had from both parents as a young child was very sound and very good. I do still have some very nice memories of father. They don't push away the other real and bad memories though. They all have their places.

The players (except for myself) in that drama are all passed away now. I am much older now than my parents were then. I can look back and have compassion for both of them and what life must have been like. And of course, before Mum died, we discussed EVERYTHING. No secrets.

I just feel strongly that it would have been AS wrong for Mum to try and keep my brother from the father's new family as it would have been for her to push me toward the father's new family. We were very different children with different needs.

Funny, at the time, neither of us kids had much respect for either parent regarding their choices about staying married for so long. As an adult I see quite differently...

Sally

Clearly everyone is riled up. Go slow with the kids! Call a really good therapist. Do research. Go on Dr Phils website. This situation for a child is no different than abuse or alcoholism. It is chaos and the kids need to be removed from it. Otherwise they go on to thrive on chaos themselves. Alternatively, they must be able to talk about it and have no secrets. They must not suffer alone thinking that every other family is "normal" and theirs is not. A kids al-anon program might be good for them, where they can talk to other kids. If they learn to hide their home life from others, they grow up to live parallel lives--one with chaos and one normal. All this is to say that for the kids right now THIS IS THEIR REALITY. None of us is qualified to tell FF what to do with kids. She needs pro help pronto. I recommend alanon for FF too. FF has very much been an enabler and codependant and she needs support and healing. NO MORE FIGHTING BC FF NEEDS FRIENDS. BUT FF, DON'T DO A DARN THING WITH KIDS UNTIL YOU TALK TO A GOOD PRO

Oh no you didn't drag me in here, and please don't apologize.

I am not out of here. You are too valuable to leave in a moment of heated discussion.

This is what is needed, discussion by women who know what they are talking about and women who just plain care.

This is what you need, and this topic hits close to home because we all care about children, and about each other.

Thanks for the reality check Pep and Movingforward.

And Movingforward, the post I read of yours was the only one, I did not see any post from you prior to that one, so it wasn't as you think in my case. I would have taken note of any post which did not support Faith's move if I had read it.

FF,

One of the greatest losses of infidelity is one's trust of their own instincts.

I still struggle with this at times, and I'm 3 years into recovery.

No one here knows your daughter - you are her mother, and will do what you think is right in your case.

Clearly this is a gut level issue with people and that's why you're getting such great individualized responses. But in the end - all of us, you included, post based on our own individual experiences.

It then becomes a matter of sorting the information and making the right decision for you. No one can tell you what is best for you or anyone else for that matter. (Unless you're one of the Harley coaches!)

FF -

I really don't know what to say. I do believe that a 12 year old understands way more than we give them credit for.

Of course, when the affair is on-going, I don't think it is appropriate for the family that is being devastated to be making social calls on the OW and OC, and bringing a gift. And that is IF the OC is indeed your husband's. I don't think you have seen a DNA test yet. Seeing as though the OW has several children by several fathers, the child's paternity is doubtful to me.

But, you know, when I asked my son's not to attend family gatherings, where WH brought OW as my replacement, every one here told me I was making a big mistake. I think it was very disrespectful to me as his wife, and I let my sons know how I felt.

Let's say a meeting with OW and OC is on the table. How could FF ever agree to put DD, WH, and OW together and not be present to filter the B.S.?

For the record, I don't advocate this meeting, but I admire FF's courage.

I'm skeptical about DD's fragility. But I think the sarge is right.

FF, hard as it is when you're hurting so much... you can't postpone some of these decisions.

GC

Faithful, I'll echo what weaver said, we're not fighting - this all speaks to us. We love kids. We love you.

I should have answered this post of yours first. Sorry for not doing that. What kept me and my brother sane in an insane world was knowing we could talk about anything with Mum.

I guess I would start with that. I bet if I tried, I could re-create talks with Mum verbatim -- but they key phrases she used to start conversations and keep them going (when I was DD's age) were these...


I'm glad we have this time together. Did you know I'm so proud of the young woman you are growing up to be?

You know we can talk about anything right?

There is nothing you could ever do or say that will ever make me stop loving you.

There is nothing you could ever ask that will make me stop loving you.

I might not always like what you do or say but I will always love you.

Even if you killed someone and went to jail you would still be my child and I would still always love you no matter how much I disliked what you did.

You know, you might not always like me either. You might not like my decisions. But I'm your mother and sometimes I have to make decisions that you don't like.

I'll let you in on something. I don't always like the decisions I make either but until I see other options, I'm going to choose what I think is best for us.

You don't have to like me for that, but I hope you'll respect me.

I think you're old enough to tell me what you think about some of these decisions and what is going on with our family. I don't think we should have secrets.

I want to hear what you think and what you want for us, me, your father, you - the whole family.

That doesn't mean I will always decide to do what you want but I think you're growing up enough for us to start talking to each other about what we want and need.

I will still decide what is best for you and for us as a family the way you will when you have your own children some day.

I love you so much. You really are growing into a remarkable young woman.


{{{hugs}}
Sally

"The Sarge" never fails to crack me up.

First: I am releaved .... I thought this meeting was already underway today.>phew< big sigh .

Second: There is plenty of time to PLAN out what you want to PLAN. What da'hayul is yer hurry?

Third: DD/12 is WH's daughter too ! Doesn't he get an opinion?

Fourth: Family counseling (all 4 of you together) is my STRONG recommendation ... BEFORE any plans about OC are put into motion.

Fifth: FF , you need to make a decision FOR YOURSELF whether or not you choose to be in a multi-wife situation. Coz, that's what you've got.