Any suggestions on how to work with denial? Of course there's the denial of WH?/STBX? and OW, but also their friends, mutual friends, etc.

I am so tired of being at a dinner and having people start talking about him, and they expect me to respond positively, to help bolster their denial that it was a "friendly" split.

Because I didn't throw public tantrums, and everyone says I am "looking good," they assume I must be happy with the destruction of my life. Because he moved out two years ago, they figure it must be all "over," never mind that I am still undergoing a D process and cleaning up the fecal matter they sprayed as they left.

I want to be dignified, but there's so much denial about him, her. My friends say, "The truth will out." But I don't believe them. You can stay stupid forever, with denial.

Here's an example from this morning: I had to walk to collect my car from the repair shop today. Who should slow down and offer me a lift but OW's former SIL, cheerful and smiling. I say "former" because he has split from OW's (admittedly beautiful) D. No hard feelings, I guess, because he was driving the car that used to belong to me and my WH?/STBX?, presumably loaned by him or OW while former SIL is in town.

Of course I didn't accept. But what am I supposed to do with these people? Nothing matters to them. Marriage, divorce, adultery -- it's all one in the universal void.

I'm such a meanie because I don't want to play, and I hold people accountable for their actions. If I do anything, I'm bitter and "holding on," if I am dignified, then I get my wounds reopened.

Anyone deal with this?

Some of you know this is a community situation, with the Alpha male in a New Age community. And yes, I will be moving within the next year, as soon as I line up a job (one looks hopeful), make plans, etc. The end is near, but meanwhile...

A.M. sure wish I had some wise advice for you. But heck I can't even give myself any wise advice.

You have been there to help me out, and I appreciate it so much. The best I can offer is good luck with the new job and move.

I just know you will do fine , your one strong woman...

I don't have any words of wisdom for you ...just wanted to say it sucks that these people have lost sight of the difference between right and wrong...I'm sure the wise ones on this site who have been there will come through with some sage advice.

No new job yet -- just a possibility. But something will have to shake loose.

Meanwhile, what do you do with people who see through a glass darkly?

Thanks for the support, hurting and Trixie. I hope the "sage ones" can say something -- smark alek comebacks, which I'm good at, will be seen as bitterness.

How do you cut through the bu11sh1t when it runs so deep?

Sure wish I had the answer for that AM. I myself still look through the glass like its dark myself from time to time as you well know.

But I do agree with Trixie in one repect these people are acting like kids and you are way beyond that. They all need to grow up and realize the world is hard enough without accepting such bad behavior and act like its okay.

But one thing to remember is that someday we all have to answer for our sins to a higher power.

At least you can look in the mirror or lay your head down at night and say you did the right things and have no regrets.

I know thats not the answers you need but its the best I
can do.

Take care .......

HEY! I HAVE A GREAT IDEA!

Why don't we create a new service on MB. A mutual phone roster call-up sheet. I get randomly assigned a poster's WS, or one of his/her cohorts (mother, father, boss, etc.), and I read the poster's threads, then call up the chump and chew him/her out, as creatively as I can.

It would never be traced. And you, the BS, would have complete deniability. Even YOU wouldn't know who called!

Even if the phone call were traced, your WS is unlikely to know who might be calling from Anchorage or Abu Dhabi.

I wish I could say that there is no profit in evil. But that doesn't seem to be the case. Whatever their domestic life looks like, he is being heavily rewarded and honored.

I like the phone call idea, heck would work for me...

Well one thing I try and remember AM is that what goes around comes around. And I truly believe that I have seen it happen. so it may look okay for now but someday the chips will fall ......

AM I'm not sure its denial so much as the inability to know what to say.
Until you have gone through something like an affair, serious M problems and/or divorce, I think its hard for people to really understand the depth of pain & betrayal that parties feel.
Can you educate them? probably not.

I'm lucky, got our M together but a friend of mine says its like the love of your life dying and then seeing & talking to her identical evil twin who has always hated your guts.

Love usually doesn't just 'snap' die, it lingers and fades over time and maybe you need to tell your friends that. Yes you are getting on with life but the feelings of love do not just sudden;y go away do they? It may be the only way to go now but it still hurts even if a lot less than before.

Sometimes A M life was NOT meant to be easy.

That's partly true, Aussie. But there are all sorts of people who do not want to know what kind of damage they've caused, because it would interfere with their ability to bootlick, and so they cloak great harm under smiling faces. This denial is not "innocent," but it's a very hard act to break. And if you try, you'll be blamed.

One friend told me last night that they won't wake up till their houses are in flames.

Meanwhile, we're swimming in Denial!

A.M.

I am throwing in my .02.

Looking at from the other folk's side, I see you walking down the street, so I pull over to offer you a ride, because I like you and wish to help you.

Do you see another insidious reason for her to pull over? Maybe she wanted to be nice to you.

Maybe the people at the table are trying to be nice to you and, like you said, think everything is OK.

If it is not, you should TELL them. Let some feelings out and inform them of your condition. Next time they will be more tactful.

Maybe it's not denial, but ingorance.

I always seem to give the benefit of the doubt, though, which has gotten me into trouble more than once! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Wishing you much peace and happiness,

k

Denial IS ignorance, krusht! It's the compartmentalization of emotions so that we don't let our consciences join them up!

Former son-in-law was driving the car that was my car -- he and OW's D actively supported the adultery, from which they are now benefiting.

If he let his feelings join up at all, he would see the incredible pain and damage he has caused another human being. It would challenge his notion of himself as a "good person."

There's all sorts of denial stuff happening -- the projection of feelings onto me, weird behavior around me.

Some of it -- the reaction of distant acquaintances, perhaps -- that is ignorance pure and simple.

For others, it is denial.

Keep holding your head up AM. You are a wonderful woman, and I can't wait until you move and your "real" life begins.

You will meet lots of new people like yourself and your days will be filled with joy, and all of this will be dimly remembered as the bad dream it was, not reality and certainly not your reality.

I too think that if more people gave a damn and were more vocal when someone has clearly, badly been hurt and wronged it would be a step in the right direction for all.

I personally no longer give a hoot what anyone else thinks of me or what I care about, or believe in.

I have been to ****** and back (more than once) and lost almost all those dear to me (except DD, and my siblings), and no one can ever take away from me what I have learned, or survived. Or what I feel deep in my heart. And guess what I who have suffered a great deal, now smile and I see those around me who have not with ugly looks on their faces and no light or smiles in their eyes.

Remember things are not always as they appear. They may have worldly goods and "togetherness", but happiness is probably a vague, distant idea always just out of their reach. And I can think of nothing worse than spending this life here on earth unhappy with only the outward appearance ot it. YUCK!

Waste no thoughts on them AM, and remember to keep looking ahead until next year when you are out of that gawd awful place of bad memories and your REAL life starts.

Oh, I know, weaver. But I don't expect reality to hit anytime within this lifetime.

You see, if the denial goes deep enough, even your own pain doesn't hit you. This passes for "inner peace" -- the "peace that passeth understanding." But it's not the real thing. It's not transcending emotional pain, it's denying it exists.

WH?/STBX? is a good case in point. He dumped W#1 for younger W#2, who betrayed him left right and center with OM. There was a lesson in it that he didn't learn and, when OM relationship became merely an ongoing EA, he thought he had "won." He didn't. She dumped him a little later, when it was more convenient for her. But somehow, he sees that as a great experience. He doesn't learn anything; he twists it to make it into something it wasn't, something he imagined, and teaches others likewise. (He would say, how can I know this? If he "feels" it was a good thing, than it was. But a feeling is simply an emotional event, not a reality; I can "feel" I am a good person as I rob banks.)

I suspect his serious, denied self-loathing means he can't love a woman who loves him -- he can only love women who dumps on him. From the looks of OW nowadays, I expect she is developing a serious contempt for him; that may keep the A going for awhile. He will feel he has to "earn" her. He seems to treat her like a servant. They come into rooms about 5 minutes apart nowadays, and she usually looks grim. Well, she's a nutter, and he has a screw or too loose. It will end badly, but the scandal will be suppressed, and if he calls it pumpkin pie, so will everyone else.

That vague floaty feeling is a serious emotional dissociation from his own life, and the lives he's trashed.

Rant, rant, rant. Again, there's nothing I can do. But what on earth can I say to these seriously dissociated people? The people who think if I just "let go" and "move on" -- even while I am still cleaning the mess up -- it would all go "poof!" and happiness would ensue? Even while they continue to dump on you?

I seriously know how you feel. I was the same way. Nothing like going through all of this stuff to see things very, very, clearly.

I have become very careful about my friends. You ever read that article about what makes a good friend? One of the answers was "someone who would hide me from the Nazi's".

My friendship bar got raised higher. I no longer talk to my SIL who was a good friend before the affair. The people who helped him hide the affair from me are no longer folks I associate with either.

When my WH threatened to sell my mobile home out from under me, my good friend of many years asked for WH's number as her brother needed a cheap place to live. She is now out of my life.

I guess some folks would think I am being kind of drastic, but I just don't have room in my life anymore for these "friends".

A.M.,

I just stopped in to say "hi".

As for OW's son-in-law, I think he is malicious.

-AD

Not malicious, AD, just an idiot.

He has wandered in and out of two marriages in the last half-dozen years. He doesn't take it very seriously -- he doesn't see why I should, I guess. Lots of people don't seem to value much of anything.

But he took a role in the destruction of mine -- that's the denial part.

Believer: Incredible post. I'll say more tomorrow. Just got back from a late night.

What would you say to them? Nothing. Who cares what these people think, feel or do AM. You have all the people on this board and probably a couple of good people in your life who are not in denial about the truth.

Who CARES what the others think. Stay away from them, shrink them in your mind.

Surround yourself with people who support YOU, who make you happy and bring out the best in you.

I don't get why you care what these people think.

If your ex ever woke up to the pain he has caused, the sheer force of it would probably kill him, so he CAN'T deal with it. He is too weak. And so are the others. They are to be pitied.

And I will say it again, you are way too good for them. Your mind and heart are too good to give them any energy of thought at all.

They are not the beautiful people, beauty which comes from within alludes them and probably always will.

We are not on the same page here I know, but I just wish you could shrink them in your mind to where it matters naught to you what they think, feel or do.

They are nothing AM. But for the ones which you do care about, like the young SIL who seems not to get it, he might but most young people are not very good at standing up to what they believe. You have to get to the point where you just flat don't care what others think before you have the courage to take a stand I think.

Weaver, it's not about caring what people think. To some extent, it's a matter about how to survive without sticking your feet in the air like a dead bug.

It's a matter of how do you relate to people in the community where you still live? It's about how you can avoid being speared almost every time you go out?

If I could crack the veneer, that would be nice. It would be nice to help out a few of the people here who are going to wander their lives in a moral fog. But that might be too grandiose.

It's about how do I keep my own integrity intact against constant assault. On Friday night, I went to a small dinner party where a friend, who does get it, brought up the subject of "him" at least half-a-dozen times. Unpleasant as that was, it wasn't near as bad as being around people who require you to smile and nod approvingly when they regale you with his latest saying or bon mot.

Cracking the moral fog of someone is a process I believe. It takes a series of words, events (providence if you will) and personal experiences until it can be cracked.

Honest words can sometimes start the process I think, at least for me they did. Because it was my sister who I love and respect a great deal who said them to me. This was back in my early twenties. I was a very spoiled, very conceited, self-centered brat in my teens and early twenties. I used guys and never even thought of their feelings. Usually I dated several at a time and don't remember ever caring how or if I hurt them.

One day my sister said to me after I casually lied to one guy on the phone about who I was going to be with later that day "you are going to go to ****** you know, you are a selfish, inconsiderate little [email]b@tch".[/email]

I was floored, I could not believe my ears. That was the first thing I remember about me starting to change. Many things later happened which gave me a taste of what it feels like to be emotionally hurt by someone.

But again I think if you are going to continue to choose to be around people who do not bring joy, grace and laughter into your life (such as the dinner party which upset you) then speak your mind, as softly as possible.

I just told a very good male friend of mine that if he ran into my ex and acted like it was okay what ex did to me with the island property then I would feel betrayed and my friendship with him would be over. I work with this guy and he became a friend of my ex's.

I agree with you that people will not change as long as everyone around them refuses to speak the truth about what they have done/are doing.

There is another guy at work who just remarried his first wife and still messes around on her. He flirts ridiculously with all the girls and is such a jerk. I told him that I thought he was disgusting and to stay away from me or I would call his wife. He stays away from me now, will he think about what I said and that not everyone thinks he is the cats meow? Maybe.


Like Believer, I refuse to be friends with people who are disloyal to me. I give total loyalty to my friends and family and expect the same in return.

I expect them to speak the truth to my ex if they see him and not to placate him for fear of rejection by him. And I know that the friends I have now will comply. I would do no less and have done the same when someone I know has been betrayed or hurt.

I still think it is a matter of who you allow into your life as friends, even acquaintances. I am not so good about my relationship with ex who would and has betrayed me, but with the rest I demand it.