I knew when my H was in an A, though I did not want to believe it (he says the same was true of him when I was in mine). If I had to say one way or the other, I would lean toward the fact that he is not in an A again. But. the issue I am having is that we are not making a lot of progress in R for various reasons. I was too hurt and scared from his A/D-days to be a healthy partner the last 4-6 mos. Many of my actions/behaviors just made things worse and probably pushed him away and emphasized the things he does not like about me and wants to see change. However, in many ways, I have made tons of changes and am in a much better place emotionally. He states that he does not love me, but he does not hate me either. He has been in IC and working on co-dependency and CA. We are also in MC. However, during this whole time, there has been some progress, but not a lot. I take responsibility for my part in this.

I broke my H's heart and he went into a depression and was withdrawing from me when OW came into the picture. Then, I got the IDLY speech. His A ended late March. He is very focused on his personal recovery and figuring out who he is. He states he wants our M to work "if it can".

I get confused sometimes because I do not think he is in an A again, but I certainly could make a case for it. He knows all my methods for discovering his A, so there is no "evidence". If anything, I think he may be back in the EA. And, that certainly would explain the lack of progress. We can't get anywhere if she is still in the picture? I could make a case for EA and I can make a case for a man whose world was shattered by me and who just does not feel that close. I do not want to miss it if he is back in the A and I do not want to wonder all the time.

We have made progress and things are better than they were. But, many times, I feel he is not working with me to make things better. I feel like we are adversaries. I feel like he is so angry with me and resentful, that we are not getting far. And, he has been acting independently recently to the point of being unwilling to negotiate mutually satisfying conclusions/compromises (POJA).

I am trying to be respectful of the pain I caused him and the turmoil it has created in his life, but I do not want to ignore my fears and find out the lack of progress is because of his cheating again. It would explain so much.

Best suggestion I can make is:

1. Read His Needs/Her Needs. Both of u. Separately at this time would probably be best. Share what you read.

2. Read Surviving an Affair, together.

3. Take the EN questionnaire together.

4. MOST IMPORTANT: CALL Steve H @ MB for phone counseling. If your H won't do it with you, you do it for yourself. Either way, call Steve.

JMHO,
L.

We have and did the EN Questionaire and at this point, he is not too interested in meeting my needs. He says he is doing the best he can and the things he is willing to do. Problem is, my original ENQ is no longer accurate. I filled it out soon after his A when I was hurting. About a month and a half ago, I completed one and it is more accurate. However, his LB is so low that he does not feel like looking at it or much like meeting my needs. So, he does not even know if he is hitting the mark. I have asked for feedback from him on how I am doing, but he is not interested in having R conversations (over the last few months, they always ended badly).

And, we counseled with JHC and she was pushing him to meet my needs and it just made him not want to do it. I was looking to his actions to prove to me (once and for all) that we were in R, and when I did not see him trying to meet my needs, I would get anxious and push for ENs too (obviously, I know now that was not good, but I was not in a good place at all post his A. I am just starting to feel strong on my own, so I can see things more clearly. I know that what I did made things so much worse).

He is really not very motivated to meet needs right now. He understands Harley's concept of "faking it until you make it" and he says he is doing what he can. And, that is where I get confused. In many ways, I understand this as I am hurting very much too. But, then I get scared that the lack of progress is because he is back in the A.

We are in different places in our R. And, we are not on the same page. He gets stressed out because he does not see me the way he used to and that seems to be really getting him down. I know that neither of our LBs are full enough right now to trigger romantic love. But, I also know that they can't be if we do not start meeting needs. So, it is a catch-22. If you wait until you have the feelings to start meeting needs, then those feelings will probably never be there because you will never be motivated enough to try.

And, now that he knows now that he was not always entirely happy, he does not want to go back to the old M (and I agree). He is also an admitted CA, so a lot of resentment built up over the years and was not acknowledged. Now, he is aware of it and it (as well as his anger/pain over my A) permeates his interactions with me. I did not know most of the time that he was CA. And, when he would, I called him on it. I have never liked it when he told me what I wanted to hear, rather than the truth. But, a lot of his anger seems to be aimed at me. Yet, we both were responsible for the patterns we created that were not healthy, but there certainly was no malice intended by either of us. We coped the best we could at that time, now we are learning to cope in a healthier way.

I feel frustrated that I am trying to give the benefit of the doubt, and realizing why he is doing what he is doing, yet I do not feel he understands that so many of my actions have been borne of the pain of his A and the D-days. We both hurt each other unimaginably, yet sometimes, I feel like he sees only me as the one who had an A. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I just see it as a M that went off track like many others. We have always been the best of friends, so we did not acknowledge the mounting issues we were having. We were both not meeting needs. This led to each of us having As when our coping mechanisms started to fail us. Now that we know what has gotten us here, I would love it if we could move forward together to make the M we both deserve. But, he seems to be upset about his change in feelings for me and his concerns that I may not change and that we will end up in the same M we had before. I feel like he is allowing these fears to stop him for trying as hard and risking being hurt. And, he has said he is scared of risking giving me his heart again. I understand his fears because I have them too, but I am more scared of not giving this the chance it deserves. I know that if I do not let him in, then we will never heal and grow, and I am dooming my M to fail. He has a wall up between us and it has thinned, but we are still very much separate in this R. I cannot help wondering if OW is back in the picture. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

In the books HN/HN you will find that men and women tend to process R info at different paces. It was an eye opener for me. Like your H, mine was very relunctant t/d anything.

One thing I learned was NOT to carry his burden. We settled on a method/phrase which would let him invite me to a discussion ('h, can I ask you a question?). I would then stop and wait for the invite. If I didn't get one, I didn't ask the question. The question was not always hard. The kicker is he never knew which type of question is w/b. His benefit was he could refuse the question if he was not able to handle it at that time. If he couldn't he would let me know when I could come back and ask. It worked well for us.

Right now, your best bet w/b to give him some slack. U keep busy. Don't tell him everything. Drop a few hints periodically and let him wonder what you are up to. Don't be sneaky just don't be overloading him with info.

Read the book.

L.

Orchid, I like this suggestion. For the last 6 mos., conversation did not go very well and we did way too much relationship and A talk at a time when we were too fragile to handle it. He has seemed mostly adverse to conversation. I told him it feels like he is expecting the worst before we even start. To some extent, I feel like it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. That makes it hard to have a productive, respectful conversation. Your idea is a very good one.

Once in a while it goes well and we have a nice talk. But, I am afraid to believe in that because we used to have "good" talks and it turns out H was not always thrilled with how they went, but I had no idea at the time.

Can you describe beginning R for you both? How are things now? How committed was your H to R?

I would feel funny about doing this. I do not want any of my behavior to make him think I am cheating again. He has been closed-lipped about certain things and that is part of what led me to wondering if he was cheating again. My H has very rarely acted like a repentant ex-WS. And, that also makes me wonder if he is cheating again.

At our last D-day, I did not have many boundaries when I took him back. I think this has made things worse because there was no "map" to recovery.

Because when he explained how it happened, his started much the same way as mine. He was not looking for it and neither was I. As are very insidious. When people say "it just happened". In some ways that is true. You start talking with someone about innocuous topics and the next thing you know, you are enjoying talking with this person. And, then you want to talk to the person, etc, etc.

In mine and my H's As, there were a lot of similarities. One of the main differences between an A and the start of a "normal" relationshp, is that an A is not acceptable. But, the beginning of an A is very similar to the way some of our Ms started in the sense that we had a friend for which we soon became attracted. I did not find OM remotely attractive at first. Not in the least. That is part of why I had no issue talking with him. I have always considered men I am not attracted to as "safe"--big mistake, I know now. But, I have always been very cautious about talking with people of the opposite sex and so has my H. Now that I understand how As work, I realize that after awhile, OM started making deposits and the next thing I know, I am attracted to him. Totally unexpected. And, even during the A, I would look at him and think it was weird. My H is much more attractive to me .

Do I think my H was more vulnerable for an A because of what I had done? Yes I do. But, understanding how As work, his very easily could have been first. I had not been meeting certain needs of his either. We both made horrible mistakes and did not see that we were more focused on the kids and not each other. No different than many couples I know. As a MC told us, she hears this stuff "all the time".

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Improving,

I think that a key thing to relaize is that As don't happen because you are not getting your ENs met. It happens because you are not protecting your vulnerabilities. Embarking on an affair is a conscious decision. Nobody holds a gun to your head and forces you to have an A.

This is the very first step towards reconciliation: taking full responsibility for your actions. your partner did not force you to have an affair by not meeting your needs. You need to learn to take extraordinary measures to protect your vulnerablilities ... let NO ONE of the oppositie sex other than your H fulfill your ENs.

Orchid: "it turns out H was not always thrilled with how they went, but I had no idea at the time." Hm..... herein lies a common problem. Convo with your H is not the same as convo w/you. Read His Needs/Her Needs to learn how to have a meaningful convo w/your H. Mine was/is similar. I had to learn to change how I conversed with him. Gave more reaction time. Very hard t/d for an impatient person who only likes to deal with a issue, once. LOL!!!


Orchid: Beginning R: H internalizes his feelings. I put them out on the table as long as I feel there is hope. If I reach the point of no hope, then I clam up....real tight.

R now: More communication both simple and complex. Give more thought before blurting out. H manages his anger better. I am working on curtailing my sharp tongue. My problem is if I say something, I seldom regret it. Which means I give lots of chances up front but once I go past that point, all bets are off and I no longer am willing to help or be used.

H was not commited to the R until the A really ended. Our M was too easy for him. Not enough of an emotional challenge (even though he wasn't good at those challenges). Still he felt I let him get away with too much. I did. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> He would force me to, then blame me for it. Talk about roller coaster rides. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Now H is commited to our R and M. It is hard to get used to. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />..... sometimes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

Yes, I realize this now. I know noone "held a gun" to my head. There were many factors that I believe led to my A. And, I am still trying to understand them myself, so that I never allow this to happen again.

Improving <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sorry you are going through this - but you know from our previous talks that I agree with Orchid - that it's all in the communication. I have the sharp tongue - you know you kinda do too at times, and Orchid just said she has one too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Continue to do the good work with your communication - making things not as long, making good points, not pushing your POV too hard, and learn how to get out of the conversation if it is heading down the wrong road.

And if he is possibly in an affair - then keep up what you have been doing that you and I talked about - one ****** of a great Plan A, he'll come around. Took Sprint 7 months and leaving to figure it out...and Orchid's H, well - she has waited a long time. Keep it up - I know how hurting you are and how hard it is - but remember you goal

(((HUGS))))

Orchid-


I agree. I am working on this with my counselor. This is key.

Part of our problem is the dual As. I had mine first. H went into deep depression and essentially put up a "wall" to protect him from the pain of what I was doing. Then, he ends up in an A and thinks he "loves" her. I got the IDLY speech soon after. So, it is hard for me to know how much of what he is saying is rewriting of marital history/fog/withdrawal vs. things that are truly issues. I am working on truly hearing his feelings instead of just reacting.

Up until recently, the pain was too great and I was not strong enough to make changes. I am in a much better place now. I have a ways to go, but I need to do this for me.

Thanks, Dorry. I am working on what I need to work on. It is not always easy, but the changes need to happen so I can be the best me. I know my goal and I have to remind myself of it regularly because sometimes the pain is just too much to bear. But, I am strong and I will survive. Hopefully, I will do so with my H by my side. That would be my preference. But, either way, I will make it. I always have.

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