My wife and I are scheduled to attend a Retrouvaille weekend 9-9-05. I really don’t know what to expect. I WOULD APPRECIATE ANY FEEDBACK FROM ANYONE WHO HAS ATTENDED AND/ OR HAS ADVICE! She signed up willingly when I presented it to her. As in my previous posts, she’s been in an E/A, P/A for a couple of months now, although he’s since dumped her. Although she states that nothing sexual happened and they are just friends, she lied to me and went to visit him for 3 nights, staying in a hotel room alone with him the entire time. All the signs are there. From her sexy lingerie (turned inside out) in her unpacked suitcase, to her desperation letters and poems I’ve read from her to him (she doesn’t know I know about this). Text messages such as “I wish I know what I could have done to make you happy”, also, “Please know that I’ll be here for you if you change your mind”. My question is this: can we get anywhere in Retrouvaille if she refuses to admit the truth about her affair? No, there’s no proof that they had sex, because no one else was in their hotel room to witness it, which is probably usually the case. Come on, do I really need 5X8 color glossy’s capturing the act? I doubt that happens very often. She has without a doubt committed an E/A if nothing else. She is a great manipulator at making me look to be the bad guy. Everything wrong in our R is my fault. I agree to share the responsibility, but come on! I’m in sales and can’t believe the ability she has to fool people about the truth! I just keep finding her in lie after lie after lie that she’s told me for so long, none of which she’ll admit to even when caught red handed. Matters that would be of great concern to any husband, including trips to visit my former best friend, feelings for this OM and admittedly sleeping in the same bed, but only as “FRIENDS”, ect. Of course, this was only after I found the truth out as to where she was really going. She lied and said she was going somewhere entirely different. She went as far as to ask me if I had done or threatened this OM that would keep him from calling her. She just couldn’t understand why he would dump her. Well of course I didn’t do anything to cause him to do so. My premise has always been that if your just friends, how do you get dumped? She states she doesn’t know but that he might be gay and found another man. My answer to that is “SO WHAT, your just friends?” She gets real defensive when her story starts to seem so very implausible and refuses to discuss it anymore. She’s used this line in previous relationships and had people believing it!

Below is her poem that I found on a common poetry sight just a few days after OM dumped her:

Empty, that's me
Ever since I can't talk to you
Ever since I can't see you
Ever since I can't touch you
Empty,
The bowl of cereal you shared across the table
The space next to me in bed
My hand without yours in it
Empty, that's my head
No No No thoughts at all
No emotion
No concept of time
Empty,
The mailbox
The refrigerator
The call record on my phone
Empty,
My life without you.

I was hopeful at first it was in regards to me, but no such luck. She’s been openly devastated about this “FRIENDSHIP” that turned bad all of a sudden. I will tell you that after all her pleadings with him, the conversations have resumed between the two of them with her spending 3 hours on the phone the other night with him! This is after committing to Retrouvaille. He lives half way across the country so phone is all they have at the moment. I’ve been trying DB techniques for less than a week, and I can tell you THEY WORK! We’ve gone from hating and hardly talking to each other, to going out several times, even to a party last night at her girl friends’ house and having a pretty good time. She stayed at my house although nothing sexual happened except for some kissing. The only downer on the night was when I saw the photo in the bathroom of her two girl friends and her posing in front of a big bay in La Jolla, CA, with a picture frame that said San Diego. She of course told me she was going to Phoenix that weekend with her friends to visit their Aunt and Uncle. They actually all stayed with my ex-friend in San Diego. This was long before we separated. She seems anxious and willing to go to Retrouvaille. Is Retrouvaille going to help us??? IF SHE REFUSES TO ADMIT THE TRUTH CAN WE REALLY MAKE ANY PROGRESS? Or could it be that the program will help her “honest up?” I REALLY NEED TO KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT? She’s somewhat admitted that she can see how this situation could create problems in our R, but for the most part, our problems are all my fault. And she still denies any sexual affair while she visited this guy and seems to think she really did nothing wrong and should be able to have, and visit male friends, who I don’t even know. I ask, where do you draw the line? I think going behind my back and sleeping with him in the same bed while visiting, along with all the other evidence equals GUILTY! PLEASE, PLEASE, I NEED SOME FEEDBACK FROM PEOPLE WHO KNOW ABOUT THE RETROUVAILLE PROGRAM! If she lies her way through it, can it possibly be beneficial? I do believe she’s sincere about working on the “R”, but I believe her intent is to show what a cold hearted SOB I’ve been to her, which is ridicules! HELP PLEASE! WHAT AM I IN FOR AT RETROUVAILLE???

Retrouvaille is a great program. But you are not going to be able to take full advantage of it if your wife still has contact with OM.
I went to Retrouvaille three years ago ... I just found out that I was pregnant but I suspected that WH was having an affair ... he denied it ... a million times, he also agreed to go to Retrouvaille ...
We learned, or at least I learned a lot. I won't tell you much about the things you'll do in the program so I don't spoil your experience ... it is boot camp for marriages ... try not to focus your experience based on the knowledge of an affair but focus it in terms of your marriege and the both of you as a couple ... and go from there
we attended the follow-up sessions, we even attended three or four CORE meetings ...
I found later than when he was supposed to be working in us, he was calling OW ... he would call her before attending follow-up sessions and after ...
even though, I still think Retrouvaille is a great program ...

Good luck!

Fooled, my H and I went to retrouvaille within several weeks of phone contact finally ending with OW in 4/04. My H was in a 9 month EA, and about a 7 month PA. Still not sure about the PA due to WS amnsesia. H actually set up the R weekend.

At Retrovaille they ask us all not to divulge the details of the weekend because it can actually lose its impact for people like you who are going to attend. I will tell you this. They ask people who are actively in an A not to attend. However, people who are in As must attend all the time because while there they kept on telling people that Retrovaille is not the place to make a confession. I don't think the weekend can hurt your M, and it might actually help it. My H was in major withdrawal when we went. I actually e-mailed the local Retro couple who was part of the registration and asked their opinion about whether we should attend or not. Maybe you could do the same. If you go you will learn great communication tools, specifically in how to reveal your feelings safely. It could have been better for us if H wasn't in withdrawal.

A few things come to my mind regarding your story. Is your W's OM Med? I'm asking because your W reminds me of H's OW. Our OW was working for my H and when I found out about the EA part I told H she has to go. He fired her the next day, and he was "in-love". I found her love letters and the last one she wrote must have been after he fired her. She wrote, "I think you are being very selfish. I can't believe you didn't pick me." It just sounds like your W's statement. I just wonder if he's Med if his W told him OW has to go like I did. Our OW also would do the begging and pleading whenever H tried to end the A before d-day.

My H was very remorseful after d-day, but the truth dribbled out of him. It took about 6 weeks for me to get the whole truth and it was only through persistance and snooping. The love letters told me everything regarding the PA. Your W sounds like she is deep into fantasy fogland. You can't really begin recovering until she has ended NC, begins defogging, and tells you the whole truth. Bob Pure who posts here might be a good resource for you. His W was deep into fantasyland and totally unremorseful. Now, one yr. later they are very committed to one another.

Finally, as far as breaking up the A, getting the WS defogged, etc., there is nothing better than MB principles. Keep asking for advice here. This place in the early days for me was like command central. Good luck! My mantra all these months has always been "These As suck! CV

Fooled~

Hi, glad you found Marriage Builders, welcome, it's a wonderful place for you to find help and support. I am so sorry about the circumstances that brought you here...we all hate that part of our life stories.

First, I want to start by saying up front that I know nothing of the program that you are asking about...I did look it up, and it does sound like a great one, HOWEVER, if your W is still in contact with the OM or even in the beginning stages of withdrawal from her affair, then you may as well be throwing your money away. Again, I do not know anything about Retrouvaille, but, unfortunately, I do have a wealth of knowledge about the predictament that you and your W are in right now...

When I read your post I was "mouth-open" amazed at how much your wife's A sounded exactly like my own...it actually gave me a really bizarre sick type feeling in my stomach. At one point I even wondered if she and I had the same OM until I read that you guys are on the west coast. I would welcome you to read my posts if you'd like(just click on my name and then click "read all user's posts" and go back to the first one)...I am so ashamed of "my story", but it might help you to see that recovery of your marriage is certainly very possible if that is what you want.

I don't know how much that you have read on this site, but I urge you to read all that you can. Read up on Plan A and begin implementing it immediately. Also, get the book "Surviving An Affair", it is terrific, and will teach you so much. (You can get that book at the bookstore on this site or at a bookstore in your area). Those things being said, I'll move on to what you MUST do immediately if your W is still in contact with the OM...

EXPOSE! EXPOSE! EXPOSE! Which means telling people that matter in the lives of your W and the OM...only in your situation, I really don't believe you will have to tell anyone on your W's side of things...Why? Because the OM has already "dumped" her, and it sounds like she is almost forcing herself on him...ANY amount of pressure, read inconvenience, for him will result in his full retreat, I can almost guarantee it. So, if he is married tell his wife, if not, tell his parents and/or his friends or tell his co-workers and boss...are you getting the idea? I know that that sounds harsh, but it works, and I believe that you have the ideal scenario to make it work for you. Yes, if your wife finds out, she will be MAJOR mad, but your marriage CAN survive her anger...YOUR MARRIAGE CANNOT AND WILL NOT SURVIVE AN ONGOING AFFAIR! If my H would have put even the tinest amount of pressure on my OM, it would have ended things much quicker, and we would have been spared a lot of the hurt and damage of my A continuing. He had not yet found MB and so he didn't understand exposure and how it hastens the end of an A. You have an advantage here, use it!

You will want to make sure that you read as much as you can about withdrawal from affairs, as it will give you information on what to expect and how to proceed. Sadly, part of it is that you will be shouldering ALL of the blame during this time...eventually that will change...though, I'm sure that you do readily admit and own up to your part in your marital problems, the A was not your fault, that all belongs to your W, but it will be a while before she cops to that. When she is blaming you, however, just listen and agree with her...I know that has to one of the hardest things to endure, but this will give her the feeling of safety that she needs in order to open up and be honest with you.

You must understand that recovery only begins when contact with the OM has ended...completely...so if you want Retrouvaille to be worth it for you, you will want to start by making certain that the A is over and done with once and for all.

Keep posting and reading here...continue asking questions and giving updates on your situation. There are many very experienced members on this board that can guide you step by step through all of this if you let them. I am just one of the rookies here, but I wanted to post to you because of the parallels of our situations...I would be glad to offer you any insight that I can, all you have to do is ask...I wish you all the best on what I know is a very long, hard journey, but it is possible and worth it...

Mrs. Wondering

Thanks sooo much for all your support!!! It means a great deal to me. The best teacher is someone who's experienced what I'm going through. I'm so sorry you all have to be the teachers!

A couple of things:

1. OM is not married, but has a 3 year old daughter.
2. We live in the midwest, not the west coast. These OM live on the west coast because she so much wants to move there. First OM on west coast was my best friend of 25 years and the best man at our wedding.
3. Current OM is 24 years old and my wife is 39. They work for a large telecommunications company and that's how they met. Somehow, due to tech support or something, they have contact while at work, even though he's 1500 miles away.
4. She's done a good job at "getting him back". After she left our house late yesterday evening, spending a really good time with me, she she spent 189 minutes on the phone with him. This hasn't happened in over three weeks. (Yea I can access her mobile bill on line, SHAME ON ME)!
5. We have no kids because she's not able to. A hormonal imbalance!!! She was devistated about that after learning it about 2 years ago. That's when things really went down hill.

She's obviously still in this EA / PA and I'm wondering how this will effect Retrouvaille? If I EXPOSE as has been suggested, she will become furious and it may jepordize our Reatrouvaille weekend.

I DON"T KNOW WHAT TO DO???

Fooled~

If you don't expose and the affair continues, where does that leave your marriage? As I said before, your marriage can survive your W's anger, but it cannot and will not survive an ongoing affair--this is not something that I came up with on my own, it is fact, that is unless you are up for an "open" marriage, and I assume that you are not. As someone else said earlier, even the folks at Retrouvaille know that their program is of no use to a couple where one or the other is having an affair...so the way I see it is, you either do your best to bust up the affair with exposure or just let it continue and waste your time and money at the seminar...sorry if that sounds harsh, but as a FWW, I can tell you that while your W is in the affair, even Jesus himself would have a tough time getting through to her...the fog is really that thick...

Btw, there is no shame in your "spying"...YOU have every right to know what's going on in YOUR marriage, especially when decisions about YOUR life are being made without YOU...don't feel guilty about this at all...you are doing what you are supposed to do on this. Secrets have no place in marriage. Remember, people that have nothing to hide, hide nothing.

We are in the Midwest too, Michigan. My OM was down south...something about that long distance thing that really fans the flames of an A...gag, I know...Again, so sorry that you are going through this...

Mrs. Wondering

How can I expose what she won't admit too? She believes she's done nothing wrong. I guess her definition of Adultry is a sexual affair within a marriage, THAT's been WITNESSED! I've called this guy's employer, angry as could be. They did an investigation, questioned both of them, and determined "it's none of their business".

I have exposed everything to her family, brother, sister, and her three cousins who are more like siblings. They have told me I'll always be family. Her brother is one of my best friends. All three af her cousins, two doctors (1 a psyciatrist), and an attorney are also my very best friends. They all sympothise with me and she resents that. I've not ever asked them to take sides. They've also made it clear that no matter what she does, she'll always be family, and of course, I understand that.

I don't know this OM from Adam, so I don't know what more I can expose?

Another thing:

She seems to resent her family because they won't / don't feel sorry for her. They know she's responsible for all her problems. These OM of course, listnen so intently, with such compassion and concern for her... Yea, well I used to be a batchlor and know what that's about. But to her, they're the only ones who care! The only ones who understand her!!!

Dear CV55,

Thanks for the advise. Can you tell me how to contact Bob Pure since our sits are so simmilar? I can't find him as a registered user. I'd sure like to hear his story and what he has to say, as you suggested.

Thanks soooo much!

Fooled, just start a new thread asking for Bob. I'm sure there are others here who can help also. I just know Bob's W was deep into the fog and extremely nasty towards him before she came to her senses. Bob had to Plan A like crazy. I don't believe he had to expose, but did contact the O's live in GF.

How long have you been Med? Any children? Just curious. I know this is so hard but you are asking the right questions at the right place. CV

Fooled~

I didn't realize that you had exposed to that many people...one of your posts seemed to imply that you had not exposed and were scared of her reaction if you did so...anyway, you could try zabasearch.com to get information about the OM...Does the OM know that you are still in the picture and that your W has commited to going to a seminar to work on saving your marriage with you? She could just as easily be hiding things from him as she is from you...do you have an email address for him or any way of calling him at work? If you have either one of those things you could try contacting him and letting him know that you are very much fighting for your marriage and that he should back off...especially being as young as he is this could very well work...guys that age usually don't want the hassle.

Also, you can look up b0b pure* by typing it just as I have...note that that is a zero and not a capital O...

I wish you all the best and hope you continue to read and post here for support...

Blessings,

Mrs. Wondering

Dear Wonderings,

I do have his mobile number and his email address. I think it's a great risk doing what you are suggesting because I've caused grief with his employer, and have sent a couple of "far less than nice" emails to him. He has also sent me very mean text messages. Needless to say, there's no love between us. Now I'm asking for his help?? He may do just the opposite simply to spite me. I understand what you are saying and I am very tempted to do so. I'm simply afraid it will backfire on me as so many other things have! He could either do the right thing, or tell my wife what I've done which may further distance her. He could also try and get even closer to her simply to spite me, I don't know. However, after thinking about it, if I compose it in a professional, caring manner, even if he did forward it to her, she may just see it as an attempt to resolve our problems. Or, she may see it as me trying to come between this guy she's grown so fond of, which she's already accused me of. Or, I could use an alias email and pleed with him to do these things representing myself as someone else close to her. He knows none of her friends or family because she hides it all. I know that sounds devious, but everything in this whole mess has been devious. The real outcome I'm affraid of is that he would intentionally get closer to her, for the time being, to help destroy our marriage retreat. I ought to just go out there and kick his [censored] all the way down to Mexico. I'm so scared of putting trust in someone who's done so much to come between us!

What do you think??? Again, I really appreciate your advise and help. You don't know how much it means to get some objective advise and guidence from people who actually know and understand the situation!!! Thanks soooo much!!!

Please advise on what I should do, ok???

One other thing,

As far as OM knowing if I'm still in the picture, or that she tells him as she does me that she wants to work on our marriage, who knows? My guess is 99% no. I think /know she talks horrible things about me to everyone who doesn't know me very well. She can't do that with people who do, they know better. Besides, I just started DBing a little over a week ago. Before that, there was no discussion of reconciliation, or anything nice at all. It proves that this WORKS!!!

Oh, to your other questions:

Me: 43
Her: 39
Been married 5 1/2 years.
Both been married once before. Mine was brief although I lived with her for several years. She slept with all my friends without much guilt. She was an alcholic, and had many other issues. I didn't see any point in trying. Boy can I pickem!

Wifes first husband was her high school sweetheart. They wernt married however until much later. 7 years total I believe. No Kids from any marriage. Ex husband got sick of almost the exact same thing she's doing to me now. He's very laid back where as I'm much more assertive. He hid his dissatisfation of marriage. They were to move back to home town. He stated he was staying until his employer would transfer him. She found out by accident through one of his co-workers that he wasn't coming back. He finaly had to confess he wanted a divorce! Throught their whole marriage he stated he never wanted kids and wouldn't go thru with the fertility stuff I did. He's now re-married with a 1 1/2 year old kid. SHE HATES THAT BEYOND BELIEF. They do still stay in occational contact. Her family loves him as they do me! I've never met him but sounds like a pretty good guy. I've often thought of calling him to get the user's manual, but it looks as though he lost it too.

Fooled, don't expect any warm, fuzzy reactions from the OM. That suddenly he's going to care about your M. Also, being that he lives out of town, he doesn't really have to face the consequences of his actions. I would just be curious if he's single, Med, does he have a GF? Exposing to a W or a GF could put pressure on him.

GQll is a great place to get strategic advice. If you have some specific questions be really clear on your subject heading to get the best responses. There are people who have been around here much longer than I that can help you. All I can say is that you need to have as clear of a head as possible. Your W is the fogged out one here. Have you read SAA? Keep posting! CV

Well, one of the program presenters for Retrovaille called each one of us separately yesterday, to ask us each questions relating to our attempt at reconciliation during the upcoming weekend.

One question was, "are you willing to work on your marriage?" She answered yes. Another statement was, "You understand that any third party relationships, emotional, sexual, or otherwise, must be ended completly prior to the weekend." This simply required an acknowledgement to which she said she understood.

I expressed all my concerns to the person who contacted me when we first spoke. I spoke to this person the first time they called. My wife didn't respond to this persons attempt at calling her for 2 days, even after 3 tries. It was not until I told her that they had been trying to reach her did she return the call.

This person later told me that they sensed some hesitation to the acknowledgment question regarding third party relationships. Anyway, this is all that they can do. As they put it, you must take someone at their word that they understand and will do what’s necessary in order for the program to work, you really can do nothing else. This person who was also the betrayer in their marriage said it’s quite common for WS to tell you want you want to hear. She does this to me often. WHY IS THAT??? It would seem if she’s unwilling to do what it takes, just say so and not waste each others time, RIGHT?

She is certainly in the deepest depression I've ever seen her in. We’ve been separated since early June, so I don’t believe she can blame all her problems, including depression on me as she always has, but I haven’t brought up this obvious observation yet. She's been diagnosed with chronic depression for well over 12 years, and at one point about 1 year ago Doc said she was bi-polar. She refuses to take the meds, Lithium, because of several different silly reasons, but I believe the truth is she doesn't want the "stigma" that taking the drug would indicate. Prozac, Effexor, ect., for depression is almost "trendy" these days, but not that one.

Any advise on her state of mind (or lack of), or our upcoming weekend, or what else to do, would be SOOO GREATLY appreciated!

Thanks again so much for everyone’s help and support who’s responded. It means so much to me in this devastating time!!!

Fooled~

Well, the bipolar issue actually changes your situation quite a bit...I'm not sure how much you know about this illness, but one of the obstacles that those affected with it face is promiscuity...a rather bizarre symptom, I know. There are a myriad of other idiosyncrises connected to bipolar disorder...some that are not even known by many mental health professionals unless they have had first hand experience dealing with it.

My father is bipolar and has been cycling since I was 10 years old...I am 36, so I do have quite a frame of reference where this disorder is concerned. She REALLY must take the meds, though one of the biggest struggles in the life of someone with this disease is accepting that-my father only began taking Depakote along with a few other drugs last summer, but it was the end to his 40 year marriage to my mom that acted as the catalyst to this long awaited decision-he still has doubts about staying medicated. I am not advising you to divorce, just giving you the facts of what happened in my situation...

I cannot express to you just how much damage an unmedicated bipolar can inflict on themselves and others. It isn't that the drugs aren't "trendy" enough, but rather that Lithium, Depakote and the like actually make the bipolar feel what many of them describe as "slowed down", lethargic or somehow less creative. Doctors have explained it to my family as a feeling of coming down from a cocaine high, just as cocaine addict would most certainly not enjoy this, neither does someone with bipolar disorder. Also, the depression is almost to much to bare, and any feeling of "cycling down" would not be welcomed, understandably. Depakote, by the way, has been shown to produce less side effects for many people than Lithium. Also, Lithium requires constant monitoring of blood levels-clearly a pain, especially in someone having a hard time coming to grips with taking meds at all. Depakote doesn't require this kind of maintenance...I still think that your wife may balk regarding any of these types of meds...she could consult her Doctor regarding something like Neurontin or Topamax(sp?), these are both anti-convulsants used as mood stabilizers or perhaps Zyprexa which is an anti-psychotic(sounds worse than it is, although it can cause significant weight gain for some people). My advice to you would be to immediately get into individual counseling with a counselor that is experienced with bipolar disorder...trust me, you will need it.

I'm sorry that I can't really give much helpful advice on your wife's A or your marital retreat. But as long as your W goes unmedicated, unfortunately A's, be they ONS's or otherwise may continue you to plague your life...perhaps this could help you to understand her behavior in her first marriage and why hubby #1 decided he couldn't take it any longer...you talked earlier of contacting him...he could quite possibly offer you some insight here...

There will probably be some folks on here who will disagree with me, but I'm just not sure that MB principles can be applied to an affair involving someone with bipolar disorder . That's not to say that you can't still get support here and try...I am certainly not saying that your W is "bad", actually people with bipolar disorder are some of the most brillant, engaging and successful people out there...many of them are famous...Ted Turner, Abraham Lincoln, Patty Duke, Kristy McNichol, and about a gazillion others. You can have a happy life married to a bipolar, it just takes a lot of understanding and some very clear boundaries on your part. Read as much as you can about it, and run, don't walk to counseling.

I will be out of town for most of today and tomorrow, but I will be thinking of you and praying for you...I will try to check in on Sunday...Take care of YOU!

Mrs. Wondering

Dear Wonderings,

WOW, what a plethora of knowledge you have regarding Bipolar Disorder!

I haven’t really considered it lately and honestly almost didn’t mention it. Your insight caused me to re-think and re-research the issue for quite some time. As I’ve stated, my biggest supporters in this whole thing has been her family. My W’s mother died when she was 10 years old, and as the oldest child, I believe it had profound and permanent effects on her. My W’s father died about 12 years after that. She battled with father who was very strict, then battled with Brother who became somewhat head of household after father died, then she battled with Hubby1. Then she battled with me. Bro is one of the greatest guy’s I know and I remind my W all the time how fortunate she is to have a brother that cares for her and loves her so much! She’s very rebellious! It’s almost as if she’ll do just the opposite when in a conflict, just to prove some stupid point.

I’ve discussed the bipolar issue with her Cousin, Psychiatrist. He discounts it and says “everyone’s bipolar to some extent” and he’s right. He’s very opinionated and discounts most all medical issues and use of drugs, stating it doesn’t get to the real problem. He “beats me up” every time we discuss the sit., saying what I’ve continued doing wrong and what I must change for things to work for us. I know what he’s doing (taking the opposite side on purpose) and that’s why I go to him sometimes. It’s so easy to have most anyone validate your side of things when hearing only one side of the story, but it doesn’t solve anything, but they will agree with you all day long about “what a dirtbag your spouse is!” So I take it with a grain of salt when he’s yelling at me that I still don’t get it. But I do get it better than he thinks! He always tells me later that he takes the exact opposite side when discussing me with her. Also, we are really good friends. He has pretty much dropped the “my fault” attitude after this last crisis when she left to go see OM2. He’s a strong Christian and reminds me of my vows, telling me “weather she meant her vows or not, have no bearing on the vows you made”. He’s so right. I’m a man of my word and I meant what I said before god, even if she didn’t! He and I both agree about there being no clause in our vows that said “or until I can’t stand it anymore!” We both know this because we were both there. What is it about “TILL DEATH DO US PART” that you don’t get!!! He and I seem to be the only people I know that value those beliefs. It all comes down to being a truly benevolent person, but sometimes we just can’t be as much as we would like to think we can. He’s been married since age 19 to the same woman for 25 years.

My W’s Cousin, Attorney (female) says the exact opposite. “I love my brother, but on this issue he’s simply wrong!” No one should stay in an unhappy marriage and marriage is not a charity! Of course, much of her practice is divorce. I’ll quit rambling.

Bipolar, perhaps, but it’s a subjective diagnosis. Who knows? She discounts it because she says she has no manic episodes. Well that may be true on the surface, but when she’s lying to me and out cheating on me and betraying our marriage, she’s doing it because it gives her some kind of pleasure greater than our marriage. So to me those are manic episodes. Yesterday morning she said she was so depressed that she couldn’t go on. Today she comes by in a great mood telling me she’s going out with her girl friends tonight. Yesterday morning I asked her to reconsider the medication her doctor had originally suggested. She said that she would have to go back to him and he’s not on her new insurance, and he’s not going to just call it in because of the monitoring. I said then go to another doctor. Last night I sent her a couple of emails with great links that really defined what bipolar disorder is and some very strong statistics, ect. Well she went out for a couple beers with one of her GF after work and called me when she got home. I think she actually went from a depressed state to a manic state later that same day. I asked her to check the emails. She did, it made her angry and she replied to them with sarcasm. I prefaced the first email by saying “please accept this information in the way it was intended, I love you so much and can’t stand to see you suffer”. But her attitude changed from earlier that day from discussing it and why she couldn’t get medicine easily, to “how dare I suggest she has such a problem. You, Hubby2 are the one who’s insane, not me. Everybody knows that!” She has been hospitalized once when sis thought she took too many Klonipin's in aneffort to kill herself after hubby1 left her. See often talks of suicide, so much so that no one takes her seriously anymore. Yes, she is a "DRAMA QUEEN"! One other thing, she takes those Klonopin's all the time. I've heard those can cause depression?

This opens up a whole new predicament for me now. If she’s really bipolar, then I should stay by her side because she’s sick. And just as if she had any other disease or she was crippled, I of course would stay by her and never leave. Without the bipolar issue it’s easier for me to justify bailing out. She’s committed Adultery at least twice (even though she won’t admit it), and I see no desire for her to change. Although the Bible sees no good reason for divorce, Adultery is an acceptable ground for divorce.

Retrovaille information came to me today and I asked her if she got her info for our upcoming weekend. She said she did. It’s SO CLEARLY STATED IN THEIR INFO, “We must emphasize again there can be no third party involvement in your relationship. If either of you is having an affair, you must definitely and completely end it before coming to Reatrovaille. You cannot honestly expect to work on your marriage if this kind of involvement has not ended. You cannot hope for a real chance and a successful experience. The only thing you could expect is to bring a great deal of pain upon yourself and your spouse”. Perhaps she plans on “ending it” the night prior to the program because last night she spent 104 minutes on the phone with OM2. However, if I confronted her she would deny everything stating that they’re just friends and this is all my problem of perception. Read my previous posts and tell me what you think their R is? So I’m letting this one slide, but will keep checking.

Thanks again soo much Wonderings for all the valuable information and making me reconsider her disease, weather that’s good or bad. I really think that bipolar is the case. You said your Father was recently divorced and also diagnosed as bipolar. Tell me if you don’t mind, whose idea was it to get divorced? How did the other react? Also, explain more what you mean about “very clear boundaries on my part, in regards to being married to a bipolar?” Your knowledge and insight on this is fascinating, especially since you were the one on the other end of the A. It’s really helping me to see the true picture from someone who’s lived it. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it!

God bless everyone who’s on this site and especially those who’ve replied to my calls for help! This is certainly the most difficult thing I’ve ever experienced, and this forum helps soo much!!! Please keep the advice coming. I’m hoping for something to come from this weekend, even if it’s horrible.

Hey Fooled

Mrs. Wonderings is asleep but I am certain she will be posting back to you in the morning. I can give a few of my thoughts knowing what I know as an outside observor to my father-in-law's Bipolar disorder.

All the stuff I read online gives huge caveats regarding how impossible it is to assess someone as Bipolar when they are utilizing or abusing med's. I've seen Klonapin (sp?) in action and it makes anyone behave bizarre. That's not to say your wife is not Bipolar because a big characteristic of bipolar is self medication, impulse control and substance abuse. But it should be eliminated first before any true assesment can be made.

With my Father-in-law I was able to create a timeline on paper to demonstrate that his major mania episodes generally occurred on 3 year cycles back to about 1978. Whether that's common, I have know idea, but I think I've read that males on average have longer and more severe mania episodes. (By the way, the timeline thing was not successfull at convincing him he was manic).

Perhaps my biggest help to my wife (and suggestion to you) was getting my wife to stop obsessively trying to convince her father he was manic. Especially when he was in a manic cycle. What good does it do to tell a globally retarded person that they are globally retarded? It's the same with a Bipolar...There's absolutely no getting through. So why put yourself through the argument when the other party has no ability to comprehend what you are saying? They must inevitably either hit rock bottom or otherwise seek appropriate medical assistance for themselves.

I remember the frustration of every time we'd get a Doctor to say he was Bipolar then he would pull his "act" together to convince some other (usually non-pyschiatrist) Doctor to say he wasn't in some cursory without even an assesment way. Or he'd go on and on about how we should "prove it", it's us that are crazy or merely making him crazy so leave him alone. 5 minutes later back in our face. It drove me nuts and I am a very patient man.

Fool, you have all my sympathy.

Good luck. Mr. Wondering

p.s - I'm tired, I'll let Mrs. Wondering edit this 2-morrow

Oh my god!!! Now there’s OM3!!!

Thanks for your post Mr. Wanderings! The names actually Fooled, but that’s ok, after reading my newest post, I’m considering changing it to just “Fool” anyway!

I’ve been suspicious of this cockroach for quite some time, but now have conformation!!!

I told you that she said she was going out with girl friends last night? Well, I’ve been sooo lied to for sooo long I just don’t trust her anymore. I also got suspicious when she told me who all she was going out with. They were the same people whose party we went to last week and had a pretty good time. I asked if she would like for me to go with her again. She immediately said no, this was a “girl’s night out” thing. I asked, what about the two BF’s of your two friends you just mentioned. She said something really silly like, oh, there just there for protection. Besides, you would get mad or jealous if I went and danced, or something. That is absurd. I don’t like to dance anymore and encourage her to dance with whoever she wants when we go out!

Well, as I always say, “if it smells fishy, it usually is”. And in her case it usually turns out to really stink! I noticed on her phone records that she’d been talking to this guy that’s had a thing for her for quite some time. He emails her occasionally with all the stupid chain emails that have been forwarded from 30 different people before him. In the past, if we had been fighting, she would call him sometimes for support, but it’s been over a year. Well, just like all the others, he tells her what she wants to hear, says he believes she’s a great person, and sometimes it’s for the best to divorce! Of course he really knows nothing about her and certainly doesn’t have to be married to her. But he’s such a passive wimp, they may actually work out pretty well together! The other thing is he’s a home builder and seems to have a LOT of money! He’s got a HUGE 5000+ sq foot home in a very prestigious and gated community. Two years ago we went to a married couple’s annual Christmas party. I had to work late that night so I told her to go with my former best friend, the best man at our wedding who always stays with us over Christmas because he’s from CA. This is the guy who became OM1! Anyway, I show up at party about 2 hours later and there’s now, OM3 standing there talking to her real close like. He knew I didn’t like him anymore because of his past contacts that I considered inappropriate. I went straight up to her and gave her a big hug and kiss and said I was sorry for being late. I did this intentionally to aggravate him of course. I turned around and he WAS GONE! Not from the room, not from the house, HE LEFT! This guy’s about 5’3 and about 100 lbs tops and he knows that I could squish him like a cockroach! He’s not married, divorced about 8 years, and has a son that’s in his first year of college out of state. As a mater of fact, when I caught her emailing him recently, telling him we had separated and there were so many changes in her life, and they should get together and “catch up”, and even more baloney that makes me sick, he replied that he would be busy for the next couple weeks taking his son to college, among other things. But he would call her when he returned. We’ll almost to the day, he did!

Here’s what I don’t get…
WS separates to have better contact with OM2 because I get mad when he calls at 1:00am.

WS and I start getting along much better because I’ve been MBing.

OM2 dumps WS for some reason I still don’t know. She gets really depressed because “everything’s wrong”. She can never be specific!

I ask her if she wants to go to Retrovaille about a week and a half ago, because it was impossible for us to travel 300 miles when looking at it 2 years ago, and it's in our home town in 2 weeks. She says, without hesitation or me “selling” her on it”, YES!

Give her the brochures and have her fill out and sign the enrolment form two days later (she could have backed out then), which she signs acknowledging that any 3rd party affairs must end, and a commitment to working on our marriage.

Retrovaille coach calls her to confirm everything she said above, driving the point home that this is how it must be for it to work. She understands.

Retovaille info and conformation for this Friday arrives at each of our houses yesterday, driving the same point home and encouraging you to “back out” if you can’t do the things stated. She confirms she’s received it, no problem.

WS knows at this time she’s got a date with OM3 for later that same evening. I suspected it , but confirmed myself to be sure. He probably thinks that since he’s in such a swanky, gated community, she could park in back and I’d never be able to know. Well, among other things, I’m also a Realtor, but I won’t admit it because I do other stuff. The Realtor deal’s a long story. I’m working with WS Cousin, ER Doctor, trying to find him and his wife a home in an almost exact price range and location. So I call to schedule a showing for one of the nearby properties and get the MASTER gate code in about two minutes.

Wait until about 8:30pm when she said she would be arriving at GF’s house to go out together. Drive by OM3’s house instead and low and behold, there’s her car, kinda parked around back as much as possible. Go back at 7:00am this morning and what do you think? Yep, car still there parked there in the exact same place. Actually, they almost ran into me last night backing out so fast, red sportscar, drives fast for effect, probably has a 1 ½ in. ?? Fortunately, I was smart enough to borrow someone else’s car in case that happened.

OM3 “coackroach” tells me a few years ago when I still talked to him that he’s an atheist, thru and thru. My WS, being the devout Christian woman she is jumps at the first opportunity to be with this seemingly well to do DORK atheist!

Do you see why I’m getting mixed signals here? What’s her objective? If I cramp her style and she hates the way I respond to her Omen’s, why continue and sign up ect??? Just go away and go for the record of “most platonic relationships with other men”, without the consequences of the BS’s anger?

I REALLY DON’T GET IT!!! I know if I were to confront her she would make up some hairbrained story about how she got to be there somehow through some incredible event that couldn’t be seen as her fault, and how she had to stay the night, in the guest room, on the opposite “west” wing, far away from his room, under lock and key, because she’d probably had too much to drink, But of course nothing happened, oooh, how gross she’d say. You know I think he’s an unattractive geek? Well, these situations seems to happen to her in some form quite a bit where she has to stay alone for some reason, no fault of hers of course, with another man. It’s almost freaky how coincidental this is. But how dare I suggest she’s done anything inappropriate. That’s insulting and she won’t stand for it! Here’s a question I really want the answer to. Does the sexual act of an affair have to be witnessed? Or does overwhelming evidence prove guilt??? I doubt it’s ever actually witnessed much at all, yet other WS’s fess up to it when it becomes so obvious?

It’s not the opportunity of getting a better divorce settlement! We have no kids, and a divorce settlement would be simple because I've spent every dime I've ever saved or made trying to please her, therefore, there's nothing to get from me except, perhaps my bicycle! I was a fairly wealthy man when I met her. I can't blame that all on her, but she's certainly been a huge drain on me financially.

What’s her deal??? Do I confront and expose? She’ll certainly cancel our weekend, but will our weekend even mean a thing under these conditions? I’m really just curious to go through with it just to see what happens. She’s a horrible liar and I feel she’d have to face some reality at some point? I’m so frustrated!!! I’m thinking I’m getting somewhere and BAM, OM3. Right after all acknowledgments and assurances to me and to Retro.

I’m going out of my mind. She told me before going out to see OM3, (I mean GF) yesterday that she’d like to go out on our boat today. I said I’d like that because we haven’t been in so long. Now I’m afraid to even see her, and how I might react. OM3 probably saw me this morning because it was just getting light and I took some digital pictures of her car being there. Don’t ask me why? I just keep all the evidence for some reason, but it never seems to matter. I think if OM3 did see me or I raised a stink with him, he may quickly back off because he’s afraid of me. And we have several mutual friends and it could be very sleezy in appearance. Or, he could use this opp to look like a “stud”! I’ve never seen any other opps in nearly 6 years for him to do so. I don’t think he’d tell WS if he did see me, and I know she didn’t see me. She doesn’t do “before Noon’s” well at all. Especially if she’s been out the night before. We’ve got 3 alarm clocks that sound like tornado sirens, which she’ll sleep right through. What do you think I should do? I was successful gitting rid of OM1 using a similar approach. Didn’t know OM2, he dumped her for some other reason! But she did talk to him 104 minutes on the phone just the night before last. What about exposing OM3 and OM2 to each other? That might be interesting? I think OM3’s kinda obsessed with her, but I think he’s more of a coward! Huge age difference though, OM3 could be OM2’s father.

Help, Help, Please Help!!! Retro’s 6 days away and look at her???