Hello all. I started a post in the "Just Found Out" section but it doesn't quite fit there. My problem is that I have told my W the entire truth about an A from 10 years ago and she has separated from me and has told me that she does not want to reconcile, she cannot picture a life with me anymore, and that she feels at peace with her decision.

Ten years ago, when we were both 19, dating my wife, and she was pregnant with our first child, I had an A with a woman in my university class. It lasted 2.5 months and ended when my W (then GF) overheard me confessing the A in confession at church. She never heard the entire confession but heard enough to know there was an A. I told her afterwards that it was a one-night fling. I lied to her. I know that was the one of the most stupid things I could have done but if I was immature enough to have an A, I was nowhere mature enough to tell the truth. Not a justification, just reality.

I took a year off of school to break contact with the OW and we went to couple counselling to try to fix us. I still upheld the lie that it was just one time. Stupid! To make things worse, I was told (multiple times throughout our dating and marriage) that if she ever found out that I was lying or had another A that we'd be done. This is the condition she put on our relationship. I understand this condition to a point. I understand the "never have an A again" part (no brainer, and I have kept that condition) but I'm having a hard time understanding the first part.

Before every BS jumps down my throat, hear me out. I have a way with words - my words usually come out wrong.

I can understand her immediate feelings of "if there is more" but 10 years after the A I would think that it would not be so black and white. When I revealed the truth to her she said, very calmly, "You know what this means, don't you? We're through." And with that she took off her rings, wished me luck in my future, and told me to get my stuff and move out.

For 10 years she has had this condition on our love. She has told me that she has had unconditional love for me but she hasn't. I understand that she is hurt and that I hurt her but I wish SOMETHING in our marriage was important enough for her to reconsider or just to even think about it.

I feel like it is "Well, I said that we'd be done and you've broken that condition so we are done". The problem is that the condition was broken even before she made it. Again, it doesn't justify what I did or excuse it, I KNOW this. How can she, after 13 years together, 10 years after the A, 7 years of M, 3 children, just end it like this without even trying?

This is what I am struggling with. Dr. Harley has stated in a response to a letter (not to me) that "She has the right to the truth and then she has a right to leave you, but it's very unlikely that she will. As painful as it is to discover an affair, very few ever divorce because of it." Mine is. She doesn't want the M. She wants out. This may not be a "legal" divorce but separation is the just the "non-legal" term for divorce. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it must be a duck.

I feel betrayed. In no way does this diminish how I've betrayed her but right now I am trying to deal with my feelings. Selfish, I know, but I have to do this for me, for my healing process. I feel betrayed because after 13 years of being there during her depressions, her anxiety attacks, holding her wrists as she tried to hit herself due to low self esteem, taking time off of school twice for us/our family, quitting by job for her, not having my EN's met, nothing of that means enough to her. I was never enough. Nothing I ever did was good enough.

When I worked out of the county last year, she begged me to quit my job and to come home to her. I know it was hard for her as a working mom with three kids but she was asking me to just up and leave my job for her. Nevermind all the debt we were in, nevermind the 3 mouths we had to feed, nevermind the new mortgage we could barely afford, she wanted me home because it was too much for her. I know it was too much but it just was not something I could do at a drop of a hat. Didn't she have a responsibility to our children to see what was in the best interests of our children? Was it fair to me to ask me to make such a change so suddenly? It took me a month but I did find a new job that kept me in the country. Was this good enough for her? No. I didn't do it (find a new job) exactly when she wanted it so it was not good enough.

Another example, early this year she admitted herself into the hospital because she was having suicidal thoughts. She was at work and called me saying that her father was going to drive her to the hospital because she was having these thoughts. She said that she would be fine and that I didn't have to be there. Well, I left work and met her at the hospital anyway, right away. I told her that I didn't feel the need to be there but because I knew she needed me there, whether she said so or not because I KNOW, I came. So what does she get out of what I said? All she hears and accepts is the "I didn't feel the need to be here" part. I had confidence that if she was admitting herself that she had enough control and was strong enough to not follow through with her thoughts. Nevermind the fact that I actually was there for her - something she has always asked me to do and I wasn't very good at.

Whoa, this is longer than I anticipated.

The bottom line is that I know I betrayed her by the A and then lying about it but I am hurt that after all I've been for her, all our life together, that she so mechanically can say that we are done and that's that.

I know I sound like I'm in denial, which I'm honestly not, but there is so much more to our story. She hasn't forgiven me (she still hasn't worked through her feelings of when we were dating), she doesn't accept my feelings, she believes what she wants to believe, she justifies all her own mistakes, she doesn't take responsibility for her choices, and I still love her and want to reconcile.

When do you know when it is time to say "The writing's on the wall. The marriage was over before it started. It's done."?

I think there are multiple things going on here. I can understand her feelings, especially since she has said she won't go through an affair again. Finding out you lied, to her is like going through an affair again, because she is just finding out the truth. It also sounds like she is very depressed. Depressed people have problems with understanding what is being said and often, misunderstand what the other person is saying. My counselor said it is very hard to communicate with a depressed person. Maybe its time to bring in the marriage and individual counseling. Since you have been faithful since the affair, to me you have proven that she can trust you. I'm sure you will get wonderfuly advice from the seasoned members. Don't give up.

Sincerely,

K.D's Heartbreak

Hi, CM.

Two things first.

Don't leave your home. She can move out if she must.

Second. Is she having an affair? Are you sure?

Now, please explain more about your wife's mental state, and the other dynamics in your marriage. It sounds like you have contributed a lot to the current state of your marriage.

Have you had other affairs or one night stands. Be honest.

Gimble

KDH, Gimble,

My W has been diagnosed from before we married with clinical depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and anxiety attacks. She has grown up with low self esteem that stems from her feeling that she was never good enough in the eyes of her parents. She has never attempted suicide but I know she has hit herself (I was present for some of these times), has had a knife to her wrist before, and has thought at times of overdosing on her meds. I believe she takes about 11 pills a day right now. She may also be bi-polar, I do not know the results of that but she is taking meds that treat that and other ailments.

We are both in individual counselling. We recently tried to go to couple counselling but the counsellor said that we were not ready for it because I wanted to reconcile and she didn't. He said, "We'd just be going around in circles."

I have been kicked out of the home. I tried to move back in but then she threatened to take the kids to her parents' place indefinitely if I came back. This is all legal because I would know where the children are and she would not restrict access to the kids. When I tried to move back she was going to take the kids out of their beds while they were sleeping and take them away to her parents'. I told to stop and that for the sake of the kids I would go so that their lives would not be disrupted anymore than it had to be. So if I move back in, my W and kids move out. That's not fair to the kids. Each of them have their own room and personal comfort there.

I would never think that she is having an A. She is VERY disgusted by the thought. I sometimes think that she might but it is only my own insecurities talking. She has never given me a reason to doubt. She is very insecure about her body and doesn't like sex. Which leads to another problem...my EN's.

I can face God and say that I have been faithful ever since the A 10 years ago. I have worked on anything about me that could ever lead to another A. I used to look at other women passing by and I don't do that anymore (I actually find it hard to look at other women). If I ever thought that I could get into a situation that I might get close to another woman, I would avoid the situation, look at my wedding band, and remember that I married my W for a reason: love. That is always enough for me. And I would never want to put my W through the pain that I caused her ever again.

It is true that I haven't been the best husband. I don't think I have met her EN's and she hasn't met mine. I realise meeting these needs is symbiotic: when I meet hers she meets mine, and so on. I have had controlling behavior and emotionally abusive tendencies (from what I've read) but she has had them to (from what I've read). We have been no worse to each other in those depts.

I stopped communicating with her a long time ago because of her "abuse tendencies" (and in no way am I calling her abusive, people can have abusive characteristics and not be abusive). Every time I would say something about my feelings it was always taken the wrong way, never forgotten, and always used against me. It wouldn't matter if I said something a thousand times positive, the one time I would say something negative, that is all she would believe, accept, and remember. So, I just stopped talking because if I didn't say anything she would not have any ammo to use against me.

No a great solution, I know, but when you already feel so bad about yourself, not worthy for God to look at you any more, having her yell at me and use my words against me just pushed me down even farther than I was.

I know I have done wrong but she doesn't see that she has had a part in our misery. One thing she is adamant about, even restated it today on the phone, is that the reason why we are separated is because I lied. I try to say to her that, yes I lied, but she needs to take accountability for her decision to leave the marriage. Am I wrong in thinking this? Her mentality is (her words) that if I hadn't lied then we wouldn't be separated. It is still her choice!

CM,

I am very new here and still making mistakes, and there are certainly others here who can offer bette more detailed direction, but looking at your situation here is my opinion.

Move back into your home immediately. It is not you forcing the change you are married and have a family. You have every right to be in your home and with your children. She has no right to make you move out. You are headed down a very bad path that will lead to more and more hurt if you don't do something to stand up for it now. I know from my own experience that the longer you put it off the harder it is. You appear to be a conflict avoider. Avoiding conflict only makes it worse as I am dealing with now. Take some time to read my posts if you like. this is where you could potentially end up if you don't make a stand now. Counseling is super important, and if you can, get a copy of Love busters and His needs/Her needs. It wouldn't hurt to read surviving an affair either. When I read these books I realized that there was so much more that I could have and should have done and had I done it 2-3 years ago. I wouldn't be in this mess that I am in today. You have a lot of hope and potential to turn this around quickly, study the principals here on MB and read the books. Your wife sounds very much like mine and your relationship carries the characteristics of mine. These are the warning signs that you need to do something now. Best of luck and keep posting.

SC,

I forgot to mention that our house is up for sale now. She wants to move out because neither of us are financially able to keep the mortgage on our own. We have not been very sucessful though. I think it has been on the market for 3 months and not even one offer. She was very gung-ho about selling the house and not being together.

Both her sisters couldn't believe it when I tried to move back in. They said it was such an unthoughtful and controlling thing to do. Also, what happens if I move in and she takes the kids? The kids are going to suffer and all they know is that daddy moved in our house and mommy and us moved out. She will justify uprooting the kids as my fault because I moved back. She has already stated in our proposed separation agreement that SHE is the source of the children's stability and security - not the home they live in. So in her mind, she can move anywhere and the children will feel safe and secure with her.

There is no reaching her. I have tried to tell her my feelings about that I don't want to separate, that there is so much to fight for, but she doesn't listen to me. She even has not listened to our priest. I know he wants our marriage to last and she has to know that God wants our marriage to last but nothing is enough for her.

And yes, I do seem to be a conflict avoider. I hate conflict and I hate being angry. I don't see the need for it. How do you argue with someone who always thinks that they are right and never wrong? It is impossible!

I have read some books about approval addiction, verbal abuse, when a marriage dies, but not the ones you've suggested. I think more importantly SHE needs to read these. I know I want to reconcile and that our marriage IS worth it.

One other thing: I've had other people suggest to me on this site to move back in. Is this a suggestion in one of Dr. Harley's books?

I've got this response from my lawyer but that was purely legal advice. No one else has given me this advice in order to help our relationship.

Hi, CM.

Please seek legal advice immediately.

Your wife should not be using your children as pawns in a game to control your actions.

Tell the lawyer what you have told us. Please also consider a parenting evaluator to determine the best parent for your children right now. Your new goal should be to protect your children.

If you are telling me the whole truth, your wife does NOT need to be in charge of your children right now. She very likely needs medical attention.

I recommend that you move back into your home and seek immediate legal counsel.

All the best,
Gimble

Gimble,

I do have legal counsell but because there is nothing recent that is abusive to the children then there's nothing I can do. Even though she has migraines everyday and I have watched the kids numerous times when she hasn't been able to get out of bed, she still has not put our children's lives in danger, in the eyes of the law.

Also, because last year I was out of the country working for about half the year on and off, the boys (2 and 4) have really become attached to their mother. I hate it because any parent would love that type of dependency from thier children. But since they do have this dependency it would be very hard on them to remove them from her. This is also what my lawyer advises. This is not, for me, about what is right for me, it is about what is right for our children. My W has justified to herself that it is better for the children to live their life with us apart than to have them in a home where we (she) are always fighting. I don't want to fight, I want to reconcile. She is the one, like her mother, that yells. I want our children to enjoy a proper family unit. I want to give them something I didn't have.

Hi, CM.

If your legal counsel has recommended that you move back home, that is what you should do.

You appear to be avoiding conflict.

Your wife's mental state is in question, regardless of whether or not she has been a danger in the past.

You asked for advice here. I can tell you what you want to hear, or I can tell you what I think you need to do.

I do know that legally, it is very likely that you are making a mistake by leaving your home, regardless of your wife's actions. What your relatives have to say is, at this point, immaterial.

From what you tell me, your wife is indeed a danger to your children.

You have to make your own choices. Waiting and pleading with your wife for consideration is a choice you can make, but I think it is a very bad one. Right now, you have given her complete control. Are you absolutely sure she is up to the task of making the best decisions for your family?

All the best,
Gimble

Heck no is she in the best state of mind but she has proven when I was out of the county that if she couldn't handle the kids she asked for help from her family. She at least knew when we couldn't handle things.

My lawyer's advice that I've stated was their original advice. I know, legally, I am risking the house by not being there but it was further advised to me that if moving in doesn't help the situation, and I know my rights, then I should let sleeping dogs lie.

Thank you for your honesty. I have to admit that it is hard to hear what I need to hear instead of what I want to hear. Thank you for your advice - I will take it under consideration. And please don't stop - the more the better!

Hi, CM.

If you do not have a direct say in the care and well being of your children, then you have a moral obligation to take whatever legal means are necessary to be able to have equal input.

If you are away from home and don't have to be, and your wife is making all those decisions, then you have abdicated your part of the responsibility for your children.

Again, please seek legal recourse if necessary to ensure your place in your children's lives is not forfeit.

You have stated that your wife has mental issues. I do have sympathy for her, but that doubly increases your responsibility to make good choices for your family. You can not possibly make good choices and avoid conflict. It is simply not possible.

All the best,
Gimble

Cambridge,

Your mentally unbalanced wife seems to be able to easily control you with her different afflictions, migranes, and suicidal thoughts.

To leave your children with this woman, and you moving out of the house is lunacy.

MOVE BACK INTO THE HOUSE!! If she wants to move out to her parents and take the kids, help her pack!! If her parents want her in their home that's great!!! They can take care of her. It sounds like someone has to!

As for the children, you have as much rights as she. Enforce these rights.

""She hasn't forgiven me, she doesn't accept my feelings, she believes what she wants to believe, she justifies all her own mistakes, she doesn't take responsibility for her choices, and I still love her and want to reconcile.""

""I know I sound like I'm in denial""

Denial about you still loving her?? Can you tell us why you still love her?? You may want to cut your losses and run away as fast as you can. With the kids, by showing she is an unfit mother.

IMHO, this seems like what you want to do because 3/4 of your post is telling us what a mental case your wife is. If she is as looney as you say, then she will never want you back..and love has nothing to do with it in her mental state.

k

As much as my W has mental disorders she loves our kids. She has gone to school for early childhood education and has worked as a daycare teacher before for years. She knows how to care for the children. I don't like defending her but I do trust her in this.

With that said, I still don't think she can handle the kids full time as she wants. I have asked for shared custody (I would get the kids about 50% of the time) but that conflicts with what's best for the kids. One reason I think she doesn't want shared is because her lawyer's clerk told her that if she did that then she'd get no child support whatsoever. What a bunch of lies! Talk about giving incorrect counsell. Legally, there's no way that my W would get nothing because I make almost 3 times what she makes. I've done my own research but does she believe me?

I know this all sounds confusing and it is. I am confused. I have spent so much of my life with this woman that I can't imagine a life without her. We started dating when we were 15! We've been together for half our lives.

That is one of the reasons why I love her - our history. However, I do ask myself if I love her or if I love the idea of her (a wife). I think I am afraid to let her go because I have only loved her. But I think I really love the idea of a wife and what a marriage should be. She has been my only wife and I still love her one some level.

That's me. I like to think of the good times. I don't dwell on the bad times because where will that lead? So as much as I hate what she's doing I still love her on some level. I guess I need to find this level and see if it is a level worth fighting for.

So much for marriage building - it takes two and I'm alone.

Cam,

Move back into the house just like Gimble and your attorney has said.

Go in the daylight, so she doesn't "have" to pull sleeping children out of their beds...

She has no legal right to keep you out of the house. If it were me - I'd probably not want to sleep in the same room as she is - but definitely move back in.

Threatening suicide negates her power over the custody situation - do you have documentation of that threat?

This doesn't have to do with legal issues. It is the moral issues I'm more concerned about.

I know my legal rights and have pushed them aside because my W needs her space. I have allowed (for lack of a better word) her to stay because the children deserve a nice home with as little change as possible.

My W wants to move. She has never said or made me feel that she wants to stay and keep the house. As soon as it is sold, we split the money and she's out.

But trust me, if it ever did get to the point where she would try to take the house, I'd break through the window to get in if I had to.

However, it is in our proposed separation agreement that the house will be sold and that we will divide the assets from the selling of the house. So it is writing in a legal document. If she reneges, it's court time.

Mostly, I am doing this for my children. I love them and if my wife gets to stay in the house until it is sold just so that my children will benefit from also living in their home, then so be it.

I will have to talk to my lawyer again about the suicide thing. It wasn't a threat like, "If you come back I'll kill myself." It happened before we separated.

The times where she might have been close were a long time ago and some of the times may have been due to post pardum.

The recent event where she admitted herself into the hospital was not a suicide attempt. It was that she was becoming overwhelmed with thoughts and knew she needed help. The fact that she realised she needed help and sought it overlooks the fact that she needed the help, in the eyes of the court.

See, the courts just can't do anything until they have physical proof. That's why there so many sad stories of children or spouses being murdered - the law can't do anything until after the fact. It sucks and it's cruel but it's life.

Enough Cambridge...there are no "quick fixes," so you have to BEGIN somewhere, so begin by moving back in and sleeping in separate rooms if necessary for the sake of the children. It will be "hard" on both you and your wife, but YOU have to be the one to say through your actions "I've changed and the change is real." So, no yelling or fighting or anything negative. Have nothing positive to say at the moment, then keep the orafice closed and wait another time when rational discussion can take place.

Now, more to the point, since you've referenced God a few times I'm curious as to whether or not your and/or your wife consider yourselves born-again Christians. Perhaps you could clarify that point so we'll have some idea of whether or not offer Christian biblical-based advice.

Regardless of the matter of Faith, your wife obviously established a Boundary concerning truthfulness complete with a predetermined consequence if her Boundary was violated. All the pain you are feeling nothwithstanding, you DID violate her Boundary and now she is imposing the consequence. It's one of the reasons why Radical Honesty is part of MB.

However, your wife also has a severe problem with the concept of forgiveness. But I'll wait on your response to the Faith inquiry before venturing more on that one. Suffice it to say for now, and I know it's often hard for some Former Wayward Spouses to understand this, but the "issue" for most BS's that have chosen to forgive and attempt recovery is NOT the affair, it is the lying. That lying destroys trust, and without trust, there can be no intimacy in marriage. The "shell" of a marriage can exist, but not the closeness and "one-fleshedness" if you will.

God bless.

Thank you FH,

I wish it was as easy as just moving back in. My W WILL move out if I move back in. She doesn't want to compromise. She has made her decision and she feels that she needs to stick to it. I have already suggested about me moving back in, sleeping downstairs in the basement, for the kids, but she believes that it will confuse the kids. The bottom line is that she means to separate from me and doing anything that doesn't fit with her determination will not work.

She is so determined to stick to her choice to separate. There is no changing her mind. I asked her yesterday if we could talk for today and she said that she'll listen to what I have to say but to keep in mind that she is not changing her mind. She is not even open to the idea of change. She feels that if she doesn't make this decision for her that she'll regret it for the rest of her life. I can respect that but I don't agree. She has also said that she is doing this for herself. Too bad the kids may suffer but she will justify it. Yesterday, while she was out at dinner with the kids and her M, D, & siblings, I was mowing the lawn and they returned just as I had finished. I came in the house in the foyer to say goodnight to my children. With my W standing there, I said goodnight to my 2yo son and he got upset and asked me not to go and to stay. How can she, as a mother, ignore this? How can she justify that her choice is better for the kids?

I realise that she can make any choice she wants to. I cannot be a hypocrite and say SHE is being selfish when I was selfish too. She may be acting selfish but I am not the one to tell her that.

To the other question, my W and I are both born and raised Roman Catholics. We go every Sunday and every holy day of obligation. I've also been a member of our choir for the past 8 or 9 years. I joined after the affair to help me feel closer to God. I love to sing but I still felt so distant to God.

With regards to consequences, I know that this is the consequence of lying. I just wish it wasn't so. Boo-hoo for me.

I agree that my W has a problem with forgiveness. She says that she has forgiven me for the past but in recent events with what she has said, it has finally come to light for me that she has never really forgiven me. I think I read this in one of Joyce Meyer's books that forgiveness is like letting go of someone's debt to you. My W has not worked through emotions from events in our life from over 10 years ago.

An example: Our "first time" was not exactly how she had envisioned her first time to be and she still harbours ill feelings towards it and me. This was over 10 years ago when we were 18. How can I rationalise with someone who cannot let go of the past? And like I've posted before, letting go of the past does not mean forgetting, it means working through your feelings and moving forward.

I can see that throughout our marriage she has ALWAYS had her back up. She has never trusted me. She has never really opened up to me. If she has held onto all these feelings and then put a condition on our love, how can she truly say that she loved me unconditionally and put all her trust in me? She couldn't have. This is why I feel betrayed.

Now, all of this still does not diminish what I did. I know that I am no better here. I know that I've done a lot worse. The point is that I know what I've done, I am sorry for it, I do own up to it, and I am truly remorseful. She does not see her actions and if she does, she justifies them by saying, "if you hadn't done this then I wouldn't have to have done that", or "since I am not willing to change my thinking, this is in the best interests of the kids."

I know I have brought this on myself. However, I am now just realising who she is/was. It is pretty sad that it takes something like this to happen to realise how life has been and who people really are, on both sides of the coin.