Hi, CM.

Your wife does not have exclusive rights to your children.

I don't care how guilty you are feeling about your affair 10 years ago. You need to see to your children's welfare. Your wife removing you from their life while she is in an extremely depressed and agitated state is not in their best interest.

At this point, I don't care what your relationship is with your wife. I do care that your children are not being properly cared for. Quite frankly, I am appalled that you are not fighting via every legal means to have equal access to them.

Drop your guilt for a week or two and take care of your family. you can deal with the affair later.

Gimble

Hi, CM.

There is one other thing I neglected to mention to you, although I asked about it in my first post to you.

I think it highly likely that your wife is involved emotionally, if not physically, with another person.

All the best,
Gimble

I'm on very shaky ground right now. I've never thought that she could be involved but now I'm really scared.

Hi, CM.

It goes without saying that your marriage is in trouble.

Step one is to see to the well being of your children.

Step two is to see to the marriage.

Go home. If your wife wants to leave, let her, but the children stay home. They need a stable parent right now. Can you handle that?

Please study the articles on this site. There is a wealth of knowledge here.

So, what are your plans?

Gimble

I'm having problems with depression right now and I really have to focus to see the good efforts that my WH is making. I don't have a lot of advise other than don't give up. I did notice two things that bugged me:


My WH did this to me and I still view his shutting me out as abusive as anyting I ever said to him.

You may see withholding info on the A as one lie. I suspect she sees it as a separate lie every day for 10 years.

As much as I know that not communicating was not the best for our relationship I believe it is not right to blame the person who doesn't communicate as being the one with the problem.

Take the philosophy of meeting EN's and how that helps build a marriage, and that it takes two to do that. Now reverse it. If two people are doing the total opposite of meeting EN's then instead of building a marriage it is destroying it. This results in the total opposite of meeting EN's.

I'd just like it to be recognised that in my relationship that I am not the only one who contributed to the downfall of our marriage. I'm not try to divert the blame, I just don't feel wholely responsible. However, I am 100% responsible for the A and the lie.

CambridgeMan - why don't you send me an email at mbforeverhers@yahoo.com and I'll send you a couple of pamphlets my wife and I got when we first began Christian Marital counseling. Perhaps your wife would be willing to read them and discuss them as a "starting point."

The first pamphlet is called, "What Do You Do When Your Marriage Goes Sour?" and the second is called, "Marriage, Whose Dream?"

God bless.

Forever,

Thanks for your support. I will try but my wife has made up her mind. I spoke with her a little yesterday as she dropped off some clothes for our D (I have had the kids since Friday afternoon - one was sick) and she adamantly tells me that she is doing this for herself, that it is the right decision, and that she WON'T change her mind.

However, I will look over the pamphlets but I think she is the one one needs to read them the most.

My biggest question are how do I get her back and is it useless for me to try? Can Plan A/B work in reverse - the WS trying to get back the BS?

Hi, CM.

So she has kicked you out, and the kids are with you in your apartment?

You need to be snooping on your wife. All is not as it seems to you. Your guilt is getting in the way of your common sense.

Go home and let her leave if she must. The kids stay at home. You have a legal right to occupy your home. She does not have a legal right to remove your kids from you. That wold require a separation agreement or divorce decree.

Please protect you and the kids legally. Do it straight away.

I know I am being redundant, but you really must get your head out of the sand, NOW.

Gimble.

Thank you everyone for your thoughts, advice, and opinions.

My W and I just spoke and she is very angry that her one need is not being met - that she needs space and doesn't want to talk about our marriage. She does not want to reconcile.

This site is for building marriages but with one party not wanting to even try, there is no point. As of now the marriage is over.

I cannot force her to listen. I cannot force her to want to work on our marriage. She is not willing to try. There comes a point when there is nothing else one can do but to give up trying to move the unmovable and to try to work on themselves. I am at that point - the only one I can change is me and that's what I'll have to do.

I hope one day she'll realise what a big mistake she's making but I don't think she's capable. This is not meant as an insult, it is merely a sad observation based on years of experience with the same woman.

Again, thank you everyone!

Hi, CM.

Starting a one person pity party are we?

There are lots of single spouses here working on their marriages.

Stop giving in to your fears and start dealing with your life.

You have been given a crap sandwich to eat. That sucks, but that is the way it is. You are in for some pain whether you post from here or just ride out your marriage until it ends.

You are avoiding the conflict that you WILL FACE eventually, whether or not you like it or want to.

I believe that your wife is having an affair. You two have a lot to work on, but it starts with you.

So, are you going to run and hide or do you want to do something about it?

Gimble

Gimble,

I bought streamers and cake. It's not pity. Just because this site is about building marriages it doesn't mean the marriage building is guaranteed. The bottom line is that it takes two people to build.

I do not doubt that there are a lot of spouses working on marriages here. I believe the common scenario although is the BS trying to rebuild the M with the WS. It is the faith of the spouse with the betrayal that begins the rebuilding. In most of these situations if the BS throws the WS out, the WS will go to the OP because there is an OP. I do not have an OP because it was 10 friggin years ago and I have been faithful ever since.

Although somewhat similar, my situation is the BS not wanting to rebuild. My BS is betrayed and does not want to rebuild. I know the roles seemed to be reversed. This BS does not have the faith to begin the rebuilding and the WS, well the FWS who just revealed the entire truth, has nothing on his side to start the rebuilding process.

Well, I do have things on my side that I consider worth it to rebuild like children, finances, history, dreams, and faith. These are not enough for her.

So this is not about pity. This is about a betrayed spouse invoking her right to be betrayed and wanting out of her marriage. What's not to understand? Not every marriage here that follows the ideals of this site will work. It is not a pessimistic view, it is a mathematical fact based on probability.

A question that I need answered is how do you make someone listen who doesn't want to listen? How do you make someone who believes life as they perceive it, based on fears and imagination, see life as it is and was, based on facts and the everyday normalcy's of life? How do you start to rebuild a marriage when the one need of the BS is for the WS to leave them alone and they do not live together - meaning NC and no communication?

I have had BS's on this site tell me that they would find it hard NOT to leave.

Pity? No. Crap sandwich reality? Yes.

So what can I work on? Me.

I am not the one avoiding conflict. She doesn't want to talk to me - she's avoiding it. Sure, I could do exactly opposite of what she's asking me for and push her away even more.

I know you ARE trying to help me, and I DO appreciate it. However, you don't know my W. You don't know how furious she gets when she thinks about affairs. She is sickened by the thought of them. I know her. She is so sickened by what I have done that she cannot stand to be with me anymore. She had said that when she found out the first time and took me back she was doing the Christian thing. Now, she knows I lied about it for 10 years. She feels that I used her faith to get back with her, stole 10 years of her life, and ripped her fairy tale life from her.

This is her reality - I ruined her fairy tale and she has never moved forward. In her own words, "I never got over the fact that it was a one-night stand, how am I supposed to get over the fact that you had a 2.5 month relationship with this woman?"

So I am going to do what my wife is asking - I am going to give her space. Isn't this the basis for Plan B? I will still see my children every other weekend and one extra night a week. I am still going to participate in their extracurricular activities. I am still going to take time off of work to take care of them if they are sick. I am still, and always will be, their Dad. They know I'm here for them always.

Hi, CM.

It is your wife's reaction that has caught my attention.

I have seen the reactions of a lot of betrayed spouses here, even 15 years after the fact. She already knew something of the affair. She discovered that you had lied about the details. Fair enough. She has good reason to get angry.

The part that gets me is her immediate use of the children as pawns to control the situation, in addition to her over the top reaction. It smells of opportunity and premeditation.

Furthermore, her desire for 'space' and other actions are often heard from the mouths of wayward spouses. Added all together, it smacks of entitlement and opportunity. In my eyes, I would suspect that she is cheating on you.

Regardless of what you decide to do, please protect your children from being used as pawns, protect your finances, and snoop to find out what is really going on.

I will leave you alone from here. If I can be of help in the future, just ask.

All the best,
Gimble

Dear CM,

I know it must be an extremely tough situation to be in. What I wonder is why you think you have no rights to your home or your children?
What do you think is truly the best thing for your children and what is stopping you from doing it?

My guess is that you are feeling strong guilt. Which is understandable. You did the wrong thing, and almost everyone in your situation would feel guilt. Guilt is not necessarily useful. I have read on here that guilt is an emotion that is meant to warn people BEFORE they do something that they will regret. Once the actions are over, guilt gets in the way of clear thinking. It can become self-flagellation. Its also self-centred, rather then based on a realistic view of yourself or other people. I know its easier said than done to have self control, courage, and not to act according to your guilt. Do you have a counsellor or someone that you can talk to about this?

I agree that you cannot (now or ever) 'make' your wife do anything. I agree that its important that you stop trying to 'make' her do anything. If she does not want to listen to you, then 'making' her listen will alienate her further.

I think its important not to base your decisions about actions on your feelings right now, but instead to base them on a well thought out plan, based around what it best for your kids and your family.

Have you tried calling Steve Harley or another (very) good MC? I think it is very important to decide on a course and to take action, and not to sit, wait and accept whatever it is your W does. You are just as much a parent as she is. From what you have described, you may be in a better place to look after your kids right now than she is.

CM,

I have not posted to you before, but I am a FWS who tried to get my BS back. So it's not always the BS trying the MB plans. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


I just want to caution you with your assumption here. Not saying you can't be right ....

But saying be careful ....

My exH was incredibly sickened by my past A. And he absolutely HATED A's. However, as you can see by my sig line, he had his own A himself.....AFTER my A. He didn't consider it an A at the time. He considered her a 'good friend' who he could trust when he couldn't trust me. He didn't do anything "physical" with her, so according to him (again, at the time), it wasn't an A.

But he wrote her e-mails saying he wanted to spend the rest of his life with her. He wrote about kissing her, taking her on vacation, inviting her to move in with him, etc, etc, etc.

And yet he HATED affairs. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

After OW left him in November, we started truly talking about the A's and our M. He finally realized that he was in an A of his own, and admitted that it was inappropriate. We spend many an hour talking about how they were similar, how we had messed up the M, etc. But NONE of those talks could begin until OW was out of the picture. He didn't want to work on the M as long as OW was present.

So again....not saying she IS in an A. But maybe don't discount it so easily.

Here Here, Gimble! I would agree 100% that it is suspicious. Cambridge Man, I think your guilt is getting in the way of your instincts. And I can't say that I don't understand, because it took me 4 months before I would truly entertain the idea that my exH was having his own A.

I had been the one who cheated. I had been the one in an EMA. I was the one who wore the WS label. He would never have an A since he knew first hand what it did to him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Yeah....well.....

Just maybe check it out. If you find nothing, then proceed as you feel you must. But if you find something, then know that you are now the BS....and you get to join the ranks of us who have been on both sides of the fence.

I'm really sorry for the situation you are in. You are right that not all marriages follow the MB script. Mine didn't. But my exH and I worked through our M and our A's in the end (with understanding of MB principles), and now we are friends who respect each other, care about each other, and even trust each other.

If I can be of any help, please let me know.

Gimble,

If you are still following this thread I'd like to put down a few things.

Thank you for your comment about her "over the top" reaction. I totally agree and many of my friends agree as well. This unfortunately is due to her obsessive-compulsiveness. She made a compulsive decision based on years of obsessing over the A. So yes, she has had premeditation, 10 years of it. And now, she justifies that I have given her the opportunity to get out of this marriage because she has obsessed about this moment for a decade. She never trusted me and always thought there was more. Whether or not it was true, which unfortunately it was (my stupid fault), she obsessed that there was more.

The really sad thing about mental disorders is that they are not very controllable. Sure there are some pills people can take but the brain is so complex there is no one real cure. If you have a cold, take a cold medication that has been tested and proven to kill the cold bug. There is no bug in mental disorders. There is no tested and proven medicatio that works on everyone the same way.

So in light of her conditions I do not believe that she's involved. She would obsess about how she was doing the wrong, sinfull act and would drive herself deeper into depression. I do not believe that she would do this to herself. I know what it sounds like but I BELIEVE that it is not the case.

Again, due to her conditions, she thinks that the kids are better in her custody. She "sees" that the children only need her and she cannot "see" any other way. She believes what she wants to believe and only she can change her mind. With facts staring her right in the face she will still dismiss them and will not even entertain the idea that she may be wrong.

Slur,

Yes I have extreme guilt. And yes, it has gotten in the way of some of my decisions. Recent events are starting to wear away at my feelings of guilt. The more I realise about my W they more I realise that maybe what I'm giving in to is not in my children's best interests. I don't want to threaten her with what she's done in recent events but I think I need them to come out, in the legal system, in any case. There are some things that I don't think her lawyer knows about that would definitely shake his case.

Part of my dilemma is that we don't have much money and because she will not see things any different than she believes them to be, the only avenue to get more custody of my children is though the courts. That's going to cost lots and take away financially from our children.

I do have a counsellor.

As I've posted before, we tried to go to marriage counselling but she refuses to reconcile and the counsellor told us that we were not in a position to be counselled. And now, she is not in a position to go to marriage counselling. She wants to live life separated.

She's getting a pretty good deal: a lot of money from me for child support, nobody trying to have sex with her, nobody to try and please (me), and the kids the majority of the time. One of the sadest parts about this is that if she is having difficulties handling this, I will be blamed ("since I lied and she wouldn't be in this situation if I had not lied") and she will become more resentful. Despite all the support and the feeling like she is the only one who can truly support the children, when she cannot take care of the children due to something with her mental conditions, I will take them and she will think nothing of it. It is so sad!

LIT,

I don't know how to find out if my W is having an A but, again, I don't believe she is. I know the signs are there but when I went out of the country to work, I could have had ample opportunity to cheat but I didn't. Just because there is opportunity doesn't mean that there is desire. IF there was someone else, I think that now there would be some sort of evidence but there is not. As blind as it may sound, I know her enough. However, as is many the case in this forum, I may be wrong. I admit that but I hope that it is not true.

Hi, CM.

I am well versed in mental ailments and their manifestations.

If your wife is truly as obsessed as you say, then you need to be in charge of the children, and she needs treatment if not hospitalization. There are meds for OCD that are very effective for many people, especially when combined with cognitive treatments.

She threatened actions toward you with the children as players in the action. In my book, that makes her unsuitable as a parent - period. I don't care what the circumstances or reasons are. Children are not and should never be shields or weapons. Ever.

Regardless of all that, I still suggest that you have a look about.

All the best,
Gimble