It has been 11 months since the first D-Day. This morning we talked a little. I said I want my girls to see what a loving family we have, that parents hug and kiss. I don't want them growing up to think that parent should be the way we have been this last year or so. I told him that I am not giving up on us. He said he thought with time I might come to realize that a D is what we need but he sees that isn't happening. He says he sees me as unstable. I asked how. He said I put up this wall, then when we have these serious conversations about him leaving, I react as if I am hearing it for the first time. I told him he is being selfish and he should be looking out for how others feel, me and the girls. He says he always puts them first and that is why he hasn't left. Finally he said he gives up. He will do whatever I want because fighting me isn't working and even though he wants a D (He even said I want a divorce), he doesn't have the heart to rip my heart out or hurt the girls. So what does that mean? Am I being selfish now because I am fighting for what I believe? Am I foolishly holding onto something that shouldn't be? Or is this the chance I need to make my marriage good again? I'm so confused. If this is the chance I need, what do I do to take full advantage of it. I need more than Plan A.

All that stuff means your WH is still "in love" with the OW and their little fantasy life. How did you expose? A few more details would help everyone here relate.

You need MC badly, he may need IC as well.

He has exposed to his parents, sister, a couple friends, and OWH was exposed on Monday. We went to MC, but he has given up on it but I continue to still see her. He said he will look into IC. My MC thinks we made the most progress when we were separated because when he was away he wanted to come back, because he was starting to have feelings for me. Now that he is back he isn't making any effort to do anything and she thinks that the NC is making him want OW even more. So she thinks another separation would be helpful, but I don't want that again because this time he would be on his own (not with his parents) and the temptation of OW will be too great when she will be divorced in a month and out on her own.

Your MC thinks you did better separated? She thinks NC is making your H want OW more?

Maybe you need a new MC. Ours looked my WW straight in the eye first thing and said firmly: "You realize you cannot stay married and continue this affair?" My wife got the point.

Glad to see you exposed him pretty well, hopefully no one is sympathetic to him.

He is in what folks here call "the fog" of thinking how wonderful the OW is...in their little fantasy world there is no responsibility, no little kids hanging on your leg and chattering all day, etc.

He needs to go/stay NC, the longer he does it the better. Spy on him relentlessly. Does he really want to alienate his daughters, pay child support, and split his assets for a piece of [censored]? Does he want his daughters to use him as a role model for the kind of man they marry? Probably not, just remember, logical thinking is out the window for him now.

Keep doing plan A with him but keep your boundaries firm. Expose the sucker every time you think he's pulling something. This is not your fault, you've done nothing wrong, and any snooping or exposing you do is simply an effort to save your marriage.

Good luck.

What about counseling with Steve Harley?

Sounds like the standard WS script, 2 Dog...

He is likely in contact with her. As long as he is in any contact with her, he will use that standard script...

My FWH said exactly the same things that yours is saying..

Wanted me to agree to a D, said he didn't love me, never did, told me to "FACE IT, IT'S OVER"...

Once there was NC with the OW and after about 6 months of withdrawal, he is "in love" with me again...


Your counselor is not pro-marriage. That makes absolutely no sense to say that a couple does better separated. The statistics in research indicate that the likelihood of divorce highly increases once there is a separation.

mflake - He is excited that our oldest is starting school this year, but he says kids are resilient and they will survive. He figures he won't have much child support to pay, besides 1/2 the daycare and a few other things, and he has no problem with leaving me with everything in the house and says he only wants 1/2 the equity in the house. He has thought all this through.

mimi - Would counseling with Steve Harvey help me if WH wants no part of it? How is his advice different from everything that everyone gives out here?

Such a big part of me is tired of doing this for 11 months and is ready to give up, and the other part of me wants to fight for what I believe is best for me and my girls. How much more can this go on? He refuses to quit his job, but if a better one came by, he would change jobs.

dogmom,

First of all,you need a new counselor.I agree with the other's that this MC is not pro marriage and anyone who encourages a separation is not doing you any favor.Of course NC may make the WS want the homewrecking OP more because they are like a drug and when you take that away the withdrawal creeps in.But,for LONG TERM recovery,this is 100% necessary.According to the MC,you could go on eternally,taking yourself out of the picture,then coming back,going out,coming back,just to see your WH miss you one day and then not want to be with you again once he is home.It's a ridiculous proposal.

It's a common theme here that for many,once the WS and OP are really together,they get to see ALL of them,all the habits,weaknesses,responsibilities,LIFE.The fantasy isn't projected anymore.So if this OW does indeed D her H and the two of them "run off into the sunset",it could just be the final death toll.

But,before you even get there,I personally think you should be gearing up for Plan B.You have been at this now for some time.Your WH still is undecided about this OW.He still works with OW and to my knowledge,has not made any effort to leave this job,correct?

Again in my opinion,this may be the right time to pull him off the fence by upping the ante.If you don't make any moves that make this all the more harder on him,he most likely will just keep waffling.

O

Right-O.

Fogbabble.I,like many,am the child of D'd parents.Something that traumatic does stay with you the rest of your life.I long for parents,even at this age,to be together,being loving and supportive of one another.I don't have that and yes I did survive it BUT it was very painful as a child and it altered my view of the world forever.I would venture to say that most all WS's say stuff like this to themselves( my own WH included) just to feel better about the cowardly and selfish acts they do.

Child support.Has he worked the numbers? It may be a lot more than he is bargaining for in his mind.

Is the home jointly owned?

O

O - he thinks he is decided about the OW. He would be "devistated without her". He has sent out some resumes, but his job gives him a lot of flexibility (works 4 day/week to spend day with kids, casual, flex hrs, etc) A few jobs that would have been promising involved a 2hr commute each way, which I think would be unreasonable. There is the option that he quits all together and I support us, but he won't do that. Doesn't Plan B require a physical separation?

Well like Dr.Harley describes,sometimes you all have to move away to ensure a marital recovery like what is necessary.The alternative is to stay in limbo with this OW and your WH still being in contact which is *non-negotiable.I cannot think of anyone here in all my time where that has worked out.I think there may have been one person if I am remembering correctly but it was a very disagreeable situation and not one I supported.

Look,there are all kinds of excuses to be made but it comes down to this: he either wants to be with you and recover his family and save his children from being another point in the statistics or he is going to OW and give it a shot.He cannot have it both ways.If he is going to be "devastated" without this woman then you need to make adjustments here.What is more important? The job or his marriage/family? Thousands of people change jobs every day for various reasons.

If your WH tries to quit his job then he is in for a rude awakening.He does need to support his children,at the very least,or the courts will go after him.I understand that some courts are slower than other's but where I live,it's a major no-no to forgo on this kind of support.

Plan B does require a separation.It's not easy by any means.There is a lot to consider and plan for.But when you are looking at a status quo like yours,I would not be able to live like that.Most everyone here that I have posted to cannot either and had come to realize that eventually.It's not fair to anyone and it only allows the WS to continue having dual lives.We can cross that bridge though if and when you come to it.I did it as have many other's here.It's not a guarantee at all but it did save my sanity.The alternative was too unbearable.

O

Edited to add: The danger too,if I may say,is allowing this sutiation to go on longer than it should when you should be making it more difficult on *your side to let WH keep acting this way to YOU.In other words,you can keep hoping and praying that he will see an IC,that he *may or may not get a new job and that he may or may not miss you and not totally bail once the OW is so called,free,from her current H.Dr.Harely doesn't support long term Plan A's and I don't either.It becomes a new way of life for the WS that is ever harder to break away from.Keep your self respect but that doesn't mean you cannot show your WH that you do care and love him and that you would like to save your marriage.That is what the PBL is for.Taking a stand against the bad behavior that is going on now,not against the marriage.

2Dog:


I don't understand why you won't believe us that you can't listen to anything that he has to say as long as he is in the fog?

You don't believe me when I tell you that my FWH said the exact same things?

This is an addiction, 2DOG....

2dogmom-

I taught public high school, grades 9-12, for seven years. Every single kid that had BOTH discipline and academic problems at our school came from a broken home.

Daughters whose fathers leave are especially messed up (my FWW included!). We're talking emotional problems, promiscuity, social adjustment problems, and more. They are usually left with a false sense of what a real man is having had no role model, especially with regard to how they should expect to be treated by men in their lives.

My wife for one said she never really thought I loved her as much as acted like and told her I did, so she figured it wouldn't hurt me too bad if she screwed another guy! (She sees that is crap now, of course.)

Be as strong as you can, and tell your husband a bunch of us devoted dads would slap the ****** out of him for his "kids are resilient" statement. He's ready to sacrifice his daughters for his hard on...Good Lord!

O - When I talk about him quiting, I mean for him to quit and be a SAHD with me supporting us, because that is doable. He would never quit to get out of any type of support for his kids. Right now he can't say that his marriage is more important, and he doesn't want to use the kids to "stay" just for them.

tell me more about what I would need to do for Plan B.

mimi - I believe you. I even sent your quote to him and his reply was (I know, more fog) "I really don’t think so, else why would I say the things I do? I believe so strongly in how I feel, just as you do. By the way, I never said “I never did love you”. I am sure I did. If just a glance across a room or parking lot, as you say, is so damaging, what’s that say about how I feel? ….I told you this morning, I am tired of talking about it right now. I just want to cry because I am so very sad." How do you get thru this?

mflake - I wish you could slap the **** out of him.

tell him that children are resilient...
they are absorbant....

and the lessons that grownups teach have huge impacts on their futures and future coping strategies....

do not accept that psycho-babble as fact...

ARK

DM,

Your WH is still up to his neck in the A and the feelings it gives him.Unfortunately,even staying for the kids is not something a WS could really fathom as being positive for *them.They don't derive any good feelings from that situation since YOU are part of the package.What happens to most families I think once a D occurs after adultery is that WS's spend time with their kids that doesn't affect their new life.Kids,like we BS's come second to the new homewrecking OP.Their lives are totally guided by the OP.All their decisions are made with the OP in mind or no decisions are made with the OP in mind.Kids are just along for the ride since they are not adults and are at the "mercy" of the WS adult.They can be manipulated anyway they want or need.

Your WH will never be able to have feelings or feel for you and the family like he once did as long as the OW is hovering around on her broomstick.But that is why there is a Plan B.

Plan B is essentially taking yourself out of a very painful situation and taking a stand on bad behavior.It's not bailing on the marriage or the WS but it is saying that you will not tolerate or be part of a triangle anymore.It's wrong and hurtful.Review Dr.Harleys' PBL.You set up a way to contact your WS by either a Mediary or by e-mail,some form that is agreeable to you.Your WH needs to move out and find his own place.Now that can be tricky.He may not want to go and may not agree to go.But in many cases,a legal separation can take care of that.This is where it gets harder for the WS.You are no longer willing to allow the coming and going, contacting OW while you and your children are at home.If life is so much grander elsewhere or he cannot commit to making changes in your marriage or seeking appropriate help,then he cannot stay home.

Listen,I am sure that your WH believes what he is telling himself.Most addicts do.And to most degrees it is true.He probably does feel very strongly to the OW just like drugs.It is monumental to pull away from that high it gives them.Think of how many people lose their homes,jobs,families,intergity and respect all because of the sickness of the high they drive toward.It's no different than an A.

A's are built on fantasy and escape and as we all know here,there is an end to that feeling.There always is.Then life is staring you in the face and all your choices are clear.For many,it is crushing to accept.For other's they just continue on making the same grave errors in life.

There is a lot more to say about Plan B but rather than go into all of it now,decide what your next steps are.

O

2DOG:

I sound like a broken record.

TALKING TO YOUR WH IS LIKE TALKING TO A BRICK WALL...

THE SAME IS TRUE FOR LISTENING TO HIM....

WHAT HE IS SAYING IS BULLCRAP OR FOGBABBLE OR WHATEVER WE WANT TO CALL IT....

IT'S IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND THIS...BECAUSE YOU KEEP LISTENING TO HIM AND HE KEEPS TALKING....

ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS FOR WSes... I HAD TO LEARN THIS THE HARD WAY...

I AGREE WITH THE OTHERS...PLAN B UNLESS HE IS WILLING TO GET RID OF THE OW AND ALL CONTACT WITH HER....

I'm sorry. For some reason, your WH is bothering me and I don't even know him. As others here know, I am tolerant of alot but that stuff he is saying about children is such BULL...

I know something needs to be done, but I feel so weak right now. I have a doctor appt set up for next week so I have been thinking about getting some A/D to help me cope. I admit, I am so scared. Scared that he will leave and not come back (I know, then I am better off without him). My head hears that, but my heart is having trouble accepting that fact.

Aren't you more scared of the inevitable divorce because you chose to do nothing? I find divorce very scary.

I find the loss of my husband and family so scary. I just need to get myself in shape before I do anything. Do you think anti-depressants would help me? I have never been on them but the way I am feeling, they certainly can't hurt.