WH came by today to take DS out. He's found himself a room and has been living there since Tuesday. I asked him again if he was OK with us having the house and if we could find a way to avoid selling would he agree. He said he was fine with it. I will check out the technicalities with my lawyer.

The conversation I had with him went well in that I was very calm and avoided all LB's, maintained eye contact and had an open body posture. He by contrast had defensive body posture and seemed quite uncomfortable but spoke calmly. TBH I think he is probably amazed I'm so calm with it all and doesn't know what to make of it.

It is rather like trying to get blood out of stone with him in that there are long silent gaps where he just does not know what to say. I just spoke about pracitcal issues and didn't ask any 'emotional' questions. I tried to translate that I've accepted his decision to move out and I'm dealing with it by my NOT asking him about it.

I would appreciate any tips on Plan A. Avoidance of LB's for sure. Making his time spent here as pleasant and comfortable as possible, definately but what else?
As he will try and avoid talking to me as much as he can how can do I gently draw him if at all. He will resist any efforts he sees on my part to attract him back. So my question is how do I do it without it seeming that I'm doing it?

Thanks as always for your continued support and advice on this.

PS. I've just ordered 2 of your book recommendations...
'Love Must Be Tough' and 'When The One You Love Wants To Leave'

Good, let him think you are okay with his decision. You don't agree with it, but you understand it (yeah, right) and open that "cage door" wide and let him fly out.


Oh, you won't have to attract him back. Leave him completely alone, he'll come back. The more mysterious you seem (with your calmness, etc.) the more curious he'll be as to what you are thinking. Reveal your hand carefully. Let there be long silences where he doesn't know what to say. That's fine. Good job so far!!! You've got Plan A down, it is shining the light for him of what he's losing, being the beacon showing him the way, and learning about your own LB's and preventing them.

You don't have to do a thing. HE is the one in the eye of the storm, not you. You are watching the trainwreck, and right now there isn't much you can do directly for him. But God is not the author of confusion. Calm & collected, that's what you want to continue to be - for your sake, your DS's sake, and your WH's sake. Good for you!

OK, I'm mad today.

WH's credit card bill has come through and he's racked up £632 in hotel bills in from the 6th - 12th September. These are NOT cheapy hotels where you just need a bed to sleep... obvious what's going on there!

His mobile phone bill makes for interesting reading to. The OW's number stands out a mile. It was the first number he called when he left on DDAY. There's been heavy phoning and texting activity going on before he left and is still continuing. So yes you're right, he's still heavily involved in the A. Living in an absolute fantasy.

Interestingly when we first got together he tried to impress me with dinners, gifts etc all bought on credit he could not afford. Repeating the patterns!!

I had a good chat with my BIL today (SIL's H) He reckons and I agree that WH has always had someone to bail him out of trouble. He will always look for a quick exit, never ever faces a situation head on and look for solutions, ignore it and it will go away. Boy he is in for a shock if he ever wakes up.

I'm hating these realisations about WH character. Today I feel I'd be better off without him. Yet I'm aware that this feeling is natural too and I will evalutate my feelings for him on a daily, hourly basis.

When he comes by on Sunday should I just hand him the bills (they are in his name) and say nothing? My normal reaction would be to challenge him. He will be aware I know of his continued lying as I've seen it in black and white. Why does he continue to lie, it's all out there now. I will be making copies in case I need them for legal reasons. I also want him to call the card/phone company to transfer his address so the debt is not here.

My worry is that this reckless financial behaviour is likely to damage any 'out of court' payment terms I have in that the bank will stop paying out mortgage, bills etc with his spending threatening to become out of control

What a blind fool he really is.
Thanks for listening.

I feel so very sorry for you and the circumstances in which you find yourself. It seems to me that you have identified most of the factors that have led to this episode, but please DO NOT GIVE UP ON HIM.

The one emotion that has not been mentioned in this toxic brew of sentiment is PRIDE. Your husband, in the grip of an emotional tempest the likes of which he has never experienced, has made an impulsive move. He left. He is now realising that the fantasy that he wanted to make real has all the same defects and blemishes that any idealised object has when held up to the harsh light of day. But in the back of his mind he feels that to attempt a return to the marital home would make him look foolish and de-legitimise all the feelings that caused him to act in the way he did, and by implication the A itself.

Speaking as a man, I feel a non-confrontational, conciliatory approach is best re. the finances. Take the wind out of his sails with a rational, calm discussion about the impracticality of his current behaviour. Offer to make some financial contribution yourself, maybe a p/t job, and get him to identify the problem as a JOINT one. This will give him an opportunity to re-engage with you on the issue, which in turn provides a face saving chance for him to return home at an unspecified time in the future.

Once the heat has been taken out of the situation you can then get on with the recovery of your relationship. The withdrawl symptoms after an affair are well documented on this site and are not nice to see or hear. My wife is currently going through them, but once you are "back on the map" you will be better able to take control of your life.

I wish you every success

Hi there WW,
I'm sorry about those bills. We knew this would happen though. Do you know that after my H's A ended, we wrote her a check for $2200 to cover all the trips and crap that she had bought for him? My lawyer couldn't believe I agreed to that. I just wanted to be done & over with her, not have him feel like he took advantage of her money or anything. And as thanks for the check, she kept sleeping with him and got pregnant. Nice, huh?

It will be months before we are back on even footing from the financial damage the past year has done - but it's all worth it. We were in terrible financial shape BEFORE the affair. Now we might have child support. But we have our family back... which of course is priceless.

Just bring it up calmly to him as a practical matter. "How should we pay for this? I don't have the money." There is time later if it comes to divorce (which I hope it DOES NOT) to deal with the division of debt and money. If you can make it on a weekly/monthly basis now and keep the house, that's what I'd be shooting for.

I understand your feelings about his character. Just remember that an A brings out the absolute worst in a person. The absolute worst.

Can you two afford the room he's renting? Gotta be better than the hotel, pricewise. How is your lawyer, getting good advice?

Thankyou to you both for your advice. You've both been and are going through some really tough times. Your insight is so very helpful to me and inspirational!

I think WH is still heavily immersing himself in the A. I don't know if he has reached the point of realisation that the grass is not greener. For him at this time it IS greener. The reins are off and just watch him go like a kid in a sweet shop.

Your comments on pride are interesting hurt hubby. Indeed he may see a path back home frought with insurmountable difficulties. I have to take into consideration the fact he is a mega conflict avoider. He may find it 'easier' to never reconcile whether this new relationship works out or not. To come back would mean he has to face the biggest conflict of his life. He always takes the path of least resistance. Part of me can see that he may rather wallow in misery and regret as it's 'easier' than coming home and dealing with our problems.

On reading 'Tough Love' and talking with my counselor, I've come to realise that WH may have felt very trapped. Angry woman/Passive men really did summarise our relationship. The more he withdrew the more angry I became in ever increasing viscous circles. He did say he could not handle my anger and I could not handle his apathy.

So now the cage door is open and I'll see what kind of beast it unleashes!

I'm bracing myself for the next wave of hurt that is inevitably coming this way.

Good morning Weeping Willow (afternoon for you I think) -
You just continue reading about relationships, affairs, and what to do... Have you read Harley's Surviving an Affair? I recommend that highly for you at this point in time. It will help you understand his actions & motives, and then at those opportune times when you are talking with him, you can throw out little tidbits of wisdom for him to ponder.

Whether it's pride, avoiding conflict, hopelessness or it just plain ole' seems like too much WORK, there can be many barriers for the WS to feel like they can come home and make it work. And if he's heavily immersed in the A, he isn't thinking those things YET, but he will eventually.

You just need to be that beacon of light shining, showing him a place that he needs to return to.

Have you seen your counselor again?

Any further thoughts on the spiritual side you were thinking of exploring?

NTL

Hi NotTooLost!

I sure am continuing with the learning process. It is so helpful to learn about the psychology behind A's, relationships etc. I'm also glad I started to learn about them so early on after DDay otherwise I may have made some fatal errors. It brings a measure of calm to view it as temporary insanity. It restores a bit of balance when I feel so terribly overwhelmed by the pain of it all.

I read somewhere..."Don't take it personally"

I particularly like your vision of a WS in the middle of a tornado with the BS looking from outside, calm and centered. I've read the post 'The Lighthouse' which is inspiring.

I see my counselor every Tuesday and she is helping to gain much insight into this whole mess. Here in the UK we have a 24hr phone service called The Samartins. They are volunteers who will just listen to you talk about your problems. They are not trained counselors and can not offer advice but quite often they can help shift your focus away from utter despair. I'm speaking to them daily when the kids are in bed.

On the sprituality front I have always appreciated how comforting it must be for people in times of great need to surrender to a higher power. I may start to explore some meditation/visualisation techniques, read and talk to others about their spirituality. Even though I have no belief system it's very comforting to know I have my dear aunties and people I've never met praying for me.

WH is coming around tommorrow. How strange the fact that the person I trusted and felt most safe with in the world is now evoking such awful feelings of fear in me.

Thankyou for supporting me through this. I hope one day soon to be able to help others here in return.

Weeping Willow, you just sound like you are doing great. I'm so glad the tornado image helped, I used that every day. Sometimes it felt like I was watching him drive his car right into a tree, but there was nothing I could do but pray and hold my ground with my own boundary of refusing to be his emotional security blanket while he continued his affair.

That Samaritans group just sounds awesome. What a great idea! Do you have to re-explain your situation to someone new every night, or can you talk to the same people sometimes?

IF you were open to doing some reading, some interesting things on the spiritual front might be Lee Strobel's "A Case for Faith" and "A Case for Christ" - there's also another book called "Letters from a Skeptic" that my H recommends. Just to maybe provoke some thoughts and give you a sense of possible directions to go toward or avoid... ?

I hope your time with WH goes well tomorrow - I will be praying for you to be calm, strong, resolute, and no LoveBusting! I'm usually a talker (everyone on the forum gasps in shock <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> ), but I did a lot of listening when by WH was on the fence, and tried to say very little. So often during our very most painful conversations, like the time(s) he told me she was pregnant, I just felt God's presence with me so strongly, just giving me the words to speak to my WH.

You are right, your WH is temporarily insane. Absolutely.

You will be out of this painful chaos one day - one way or another; and I am hoping & praying it is with your M intact.

NTL

Hi Willow,

Your H sounds very much like mine, and your relationship (mad woman/passive man) sounds very much like ours!

There's a good article on passive agressive personalities on the internet. I do not have the URL, but here's the title-- "Passivity, Irresponsibility and Resulting Partner Anger" by Lynne Namka. PAs have affairs because it makes them feel in control of the marriage partner, instead of feeling controled by her. PAs are attracted to dominant personalities!

My WH made an instant decision to leave the day I found out of his affairs. He gave himself two weeks to look for a place to stay... and hung around for my birthday. During that time, without even knowing MB, I gave him the darnest Plan A. I wanted to remind him how much I loved him and he saw how much he has hurt me. But of course, when I found out, his As were already over. Willow, you can only do a Plan A if you can ensure that your H is not going to take advantage of having both his W and the OW pleasing and loving him at the same time. A WH would stay in this state for a very long time, not having to make a decision to come back to the marriage. The purpose of Plan A is for H to realise that he loves his W more, and that the marriage is workable. Also, you cannot do Plan A forever, there has to be a timeline.

Unless you have already decided that you do not want H back, give Plan A a good try.

I see a lot of similarities in both our Hs. Poor money management, impulsive and sorry to say, immature.

And yes, give him the bills, and say nothing.
He's an adult. He can take care of himself. You don't want to mother him right now.

Stay strong,
Ruffled

Maybe this is the article you are talking about??

http://www.angriesout.com/couples8.htm

Yes!

Thankyou for that article. I recognised much of my husband in it! Very interesting to find out more about his character and the dynamics that are at play in our relationship.

He came by today and we had another good talk. I think I managed to plant some very good seeds. He even admited that the full implications of what he has done have not hit him yet, that he still feels as if this is happening to someone else. He maintained he did not want a D as it's too soon and too final (He still had his wedding band on)
I told him what the likely outcome was for the children and I if we have to sell the house. He had no idea. He still has no plans for his immediate future and said that he had not planned to leave on the day he did telling me 'I just blurted it out'

The OW is from Checkoslovakia and has only been in the UK 6 months. I pointed out to him to be aware of her possible motives in this A. He admited he IS still involved with her. I also pointed out how she was soothing away his worry and making him feel better and yet he did not really know her at this stage. He agreed with this statement.

I saw him visibly shaken when I mentioned I was in counselling. He said he had no idea...(Again!) I said well what DID you expect? He came to me, hugged me and said I'm so terribly sorry his eyes were full of tears.

I hope I gave him a glimpse.

LB's were kept well in check. We spoke both spoke calmly. There were even some smiles. I probably revealed a bit more than I wanted to at this stage but I think now the air has been cleared a little more that a good Plan A can be implemented.


I will remain aware of the time frame on this and will move into Plan B if I feel he is cake eating.

Had a good chat with SIL about it after. She believes there is still some hope here. More than some others who think I should give up on the marriage now and face reality!! Errrr thought I was doing that already...infinitely more than WH has been doing anyway!

As always, thanks for listening.

Willowxx

Hey, Willow. Sounds like things went well? I know there are a billion schools of thought on exactly how Plan A should look (and Plan B for that matter), but I believe it was "When the One You Love Wants to Leave" by somebody Harvey that points out that there WILL be a day when you decide that you don't want to remain married to someone who can't make up their mind and CHOOSE you and DS. You never say exactly WHEN that date is, you don't want to give him the impression that he has all the time in the world or that he has until a certain date, but you indicate with respectable calmness that you love him, you want to work on the M, but at some point a decision will need to be made by him. If it isn't, a decision will be made by you.

WH knowing you are in counseling w/o him, and not knowing what you talk about in counseling etc is great I think. I did the same. Very unsettling for the WH to think that you'd never work up the nerve to D him on your own, but with IC's help... maybe you will. This is good because it forces him to face reality. That reality is, "You choosing to continue your A will eventually result in Willow being your ex-wife." Then after that, someone will point out to him that you will then move on to find a new H, and your DS will call someone in addition to your H, Daddy.

Granted, none of this should be on your mind right now at all, except as a reality check (as opposed to a scare-tactic) for your WH.

I think you are doing great.

Oh, and he is cake-eating right now. He's getting his emotional need for conversation & connection met by you in these heart-to-heart conversations, and his other needs met by OW. That is probably inevitable for a while, but as I said, he needs to understand that at some point you may decide to move on.

So, you know a little bit about OW. That's good I think. Now, keep in mind, that your WH won't listen very well to rational arguments made about why he shouldn't be with her. That doesn't mean you shouldn't make them, just don't be surprised when it doesn't seem to sink in. Not to worry though, anything that breaks through the fog of why maybe OW isn't his soulmate is a good thing.

I'm glad your SIL is supportive. Many people will tell you to dump him. Your DS would NOT be one of them. YOU are the one, and your DS, who have to live with your decision, no one else.

It's definitely too early for you to give up on the M, you know that from coming here. I told myself, that as long as my WH was in complete confusion, I would not make a move to end the M and God told me to "Wait" many many times. The tornado image.

If your WH were to come out of the fog, have no internal debate about what he wanted, and just wanted to go on and marry OW and he was positive? That would be different. But right now he clearly doesn't know what the heck he wants, so give him some time. Just don't say how long he has to decide! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Also, I know this won't do much good because it didn't with my H to a painful painful degree, but please please please at least beg him not to get her pregnant. I know almost for a fact, that my H's OW used fertility meds to get pg so that he would leave me and go to her. Didn't work of course (him leaving me for her), but dang if she didn't have a baby she now has to raise on her own (she also has three kids under age 5 with her H). Tell him that OW may seem very (fill-in-the-blank; sweet, innocent, pure, intelligent, honest, whatever) but she could get pg on accident or on purpose. CONDOMS, not relying on her b/c pills. Not to give you something else to worry about, but it's been my life. I still can't eat the Bear Creek Potato Chowder that H prepared for me right before he told me. It was boiling on the stove, heating up, and he told me. Well, that was the 1st time he told me she said she was pg. That time was probably a lie by OW. The real pg came later. Anyway, just tell him to be careful.

Your WH also has yet to learn that OW do crazy things when they get broken up with. He will figure that out later. I told my H, "If you want to know the true character of a person, break up with them. I think I am handling this pretty well, and have shown a decent character and my reliance on God. OW, on the other hand, what has she shown you?" She turned absolutely Fatal Attraction psycho. And he still went back to her. For a while. A's are weird.

NTL

NTL I really admire your strength and belief in your marriage in spite of what your FWH did during his A. You've been through so much and where others would have given up you had faith in your future hapiness together.

I have just received a call from WH. We spoke about trivial stuff at first and then he asked if what he had done had irrevocably damaged our chances of us getting back together. I asked if was having 2nd thoughts, he said after our meeting yesterday that he was. (The seeds seem to have grown some then!) I said the door is open if you want to talk some more on this and I asked him if he remembered what I had said on the doorstep before he left on DDAY. ("If you want to work this out then I will be here for you")He remembered word for word.

I said there is a way back, things would be different but had the potential to be even better than before with work and time. I left it by saying if you want to talk some more about this call me or we can discuss things more on Sunday, in his own time. I thought it best to maintain the calmness and non-pressurising approach that I've been using so far.

Of course my heart filled with hope but I also realise I have to be really cautious here. He may have been testing the waters, feeling guilty or truly want to come home.

I would appreciate your wisdom on how to now proceed if he should now say he does wants to R. One of my terms would be that we would have to go for MC.

I have a tiny bit of light at the end of the tunnel now but I'm scared to hope too much.

Excellent.
Just take things slowly. Primarily he would need to end ALL contact with OW. Don't underestimate how hard that will be for him, and what drastic measures he would have to take.

Once you are certain that has happened, I personally would recommend starting phone counseling with Steve Harley or Jennifer Chalmers thru MB, right away. Once we were in NC, Jennifer fixed us up fast.

BUT, absolute NO CONTACT must happen first. He needs to be completely honest & open about where he's at with that.

Don't get yourself into a love triangle where you are his emotional security blanket, and he still sees OW also.

Keep me posted!

Yes, a love triangle is definately something to be avoided and one I can see so easy to slip into!

I know I have to listen to what he has to say on Sunday. He may not be as far ahead on wanting to come back as I hope he is. Of course foggy confusion still reigns within his mind. I'm aware from reading posts and info here that he may think that he can have the OW in the picture still.

Our biggest problem IF he does move toward wanting to R is that he works with the OW. It will be impossible for him to remain in NC. Even if he were to resist with all his strength SHE will more than likely pursue. Looking at his mobile phone bill it appears as if she may have already been borrowing his phone to call Checkoslovakia. There are several numbers on there. Maybe it's me and my panic striken BS mind but I'm getting a 'Out for what I can get' vibe. She's from a poor country and is on a crap salary here. WH is the manager, on a good salary, drives a nice car etc. etc. This may not be the case at all yet when I tell family, inlaws, friends and even my counselor they've all raised an eyebrow!

My counselor suggested I approach the subject by saying 'How are we going to find a solution to this?' Rather than the 'You have to stop seeing her now' approach. With my WH the former approach is better. NC is going to be extremly difficult and I'm gravely concerned about it's effect on a possible R. Even if she is fired how on earth do I know that they will not be in contact via other methods?

Thanks for listening as always

Willowxx

Your counselor's approach sounds good.

As far as NC, I'm sorry but I got burned really really really bad when my (F?)WH stayed at the job w/ OW - except SHE had been his boss! He made too much money to leave, we thought. Turns out that decision about ruined our family. Definitely caused a pregnancy. And a ton more pain. Relapses are really hard.

So, my advice, take it slow. My H called me from the Bahamas where he was with OW, said he saw the light, wanted to come home that night. I had been praying for that desperately, but said, "Why so soon? Why not counseling first?" He said, "I want this over for our girls right now." I thought, "Thank you Jesus."

Well, in my belief system God was working for the good of our family, but my WH worked on his own system, and the fact that we decided jointly for him to stay in the job with OW until he could find another was fatal.

The odds of your WH really seeing the light about OW are kind of slim until he does "No Contact." Which means what it says - NONE. No seeing, no meeting, no talking, no talking to others about the, no email, no cell phone, nothing.

So, stand firm and take your time. He'll come around, don't jump the gun too soon, you're just gaining some good momentum.

WH has returned home. He came yesterday and immediately broke down full of remorse and asked if he could come back. We had a very good talk, he was I felt very open and honest about what has happened. He actually said the bubble burst for him when he moved into the room and hit him very hard. He has broken off the A (the OW is going to leave the job) He is willing to do whatever it takes to restore our marriage, counseling, tests etc.

Of course I'm delighted but will stay in touch here as I know this is just the beginning. I'm also aware of false recoveries, continued contact and all the other pitfalls. When I asked him about his feelings for her he said that yes he had, had strong feelings but he soon reaslised they did not come close to the feelings he had for me and the children. He admited he had been wearing rose tinted glasses and it wasn't reality at all.

He said he didn't realise what he had until he came close to losing me.

I plan to take things slowly and not expect too much at this stage. I'm going to continue in IC and build on what I have already learnt and keep learning.

What else would you advise at this very early stage?

P.S My copy of Survivng the Affair arrived this morning and Im already half way through. Perhaps (F?)WH may take a glance at it!

Thankyou for listening and your continued support

Willowxx

Willow, that is great news... just please read my last post about taking it slowly! Frankly, the main main issue right now is WHEN IS OW LEAVING THE JOB??? It needs to be immediately. Now. Pronto. Yesterday.

Your F?WH is in a state of panic right now, he can't believe what he almost threw away. That's good, that is how he should feel. But when real day to day life sets back in, he won't feel that way all the time. Life with OW will start to seem romantic and reality-based again perhaps, that is why you need to keep working at recovery - it takes time.

Right now, if he's serious about all of this, he should be making himself utterly & completely accountable to you for everything - where he is, his cell phone, his email, etc. This is very important to rebuild trust and keep him honest during this critical stage while he is distancing himself from the addiction of the affair.

I AM very happy for you, but as I said before in my last post, relapses really really close down your heart. You and he NEED to protect yourselves and your marriage right now.

He definitely should do more than take a glance at "Surviving an Affair" - he needs to read it with you, going thru the same chapters at about the same time, discussing them together.

I am so happy for you, and so happy that this went fast, BUT I want it to be lasting happiness - so check out Harley's "His Needs, Her Needs", and "After the Affair" by Janis Abrahms, and I would really really encourage marital counseling starting as soon as possible, as well as the individual if that helps.

Keep posting, you will need these boards for the help & advice - I'm not going to complain about anybody going straight from "Just Found Out..." to "Recovery"!!!!!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My very best to you & your family,
NTL

P.S. Do you still have the negatives of those wedding photos?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />