Thanks Slammed...

I am feeling a lot of emotions in the last few days....I am back to questioning myself....I hate it...I am scared....

I thing I am reaching that point were I see that the M is over and I need to just accept it is over as my H has and stop hoping for something that cannot happen...

I have been quesioning myself...not really to feel sorry for myself...but really wondering if I do have anything good to offer....I was quite confident that I had all these qualities that made me a good partner....I really tried in our M, but I had little experience and I was learning on the go and I guess H lost patience with me/us...we were I guess taking too long getting to a good place in our M (through all the hurdles) and he just lost hope that we could get there....

I have been reexamining it all, and I think it is our backround differences that have played a major role here....As my friend said to me today, my track record is: stick threw the bad to get to the good, my H's is basically just take the other train if the first does not look good.....H's childhood was good (he says he is very lucky that way)...and when things got tough he just got of the train...for the most part...

My childhood was a pain like for many people and I have been struggeling through for years, it is in my nature not to give up on people and things, keep on fighting....

So, while I kept on fighting and believing things would get better we would pull through, my H basically said forget it, that other train without you looks much better....see you.


I have been very angry the last few days...angry at him and angry at me....for letting this person into my like...basically for not reading the signs along the way as they were there!

I don't want to be bitter, but I am angry at him and I am not interested in being friends with him, at least not right now. I am sad that he will not be in my life that he will not be my partner in life, but honestly, I am not sad that I will not have him there as just a friend....I don't want him in my life as just a friend....I don't want him there as a constant reminder of what could have been....and I fear that if I continue seeing him I will just grow to really dislike him for leaving and I want to keep some good memories of him, not grow to dislike him...


I called him yesterday and he was in his grumpy mood....and I got the feeling like he was not too happy I called...got the 'yes/no' replies, basically the minimum along with the superios attitude he has a tendency to pass my way....so I got of the phone like 2 minutes later. I refuse to participate....he talks to me like I am bothering him and what business do I have to call again and 'snoop' into his like...there was a time when I would put up with it and just tell myself to be patient but I don't feel the need to keep up a conversation....besides when I did try to draw him into a conversation he accused me of 'talking just to hear myself talk' not to have a conversation with him........I wonder these days whether I really miss him or just having somone in my life....I am starting to think it is the latter....



Before I forget....I don't know about Plan B...I can see that soon I will be at a place where I will tell him that this is not working for me (this just friends thing)....and that I want more with him or nothing at all....not this in between....if that is good enough for him, that is fine, but it is not good enough for me....Yet, I don't see it as some plan to get him back....Although I do plan to tell him that I still want the M....but I will not live with friends only....I would ruther not see him....so if this is Plan B, then I can invision myself in it soon....

I thought I could keep this 'friendship' up for a couple more months...but now I feel as though I might last till the end of the month! It is his birthday on the 23rd and I do want to be here for him since he has no family here...but we'll see what happens after that....if he keeps talking to me the way he has....being suspecious of what I say and really being on guard around me that what the h*ll is the point of keeping in contact!?

This got really long, didn't it??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Daisy

Hi Daisy,

He's not giving you much to respect or admire, is he? Plan B is supposed to help you preserve the love you have for him. Seems every contact with him drains you. It's not so much a plan to 'get him back' as a plan to keep you emotionally available should he get his act together. At this point, you'll be so done with him in a few months, if he did get his act together you'll want nothing to do with him. You're already getting pretty disgusted with him.

Married just over two years, no kids... You're 30... He doesnt sound like he's got much character. I'd think hard about how much time you want to spend on him, especially if you wanted children. He sure doesnt sound like Daddy material.

I D'd my exH when I was 30. I'd given him my 20's, I wasnt going to waste my 30's on a black hole. It was scary, I was embarassed, but I've never regretted it. I dont think you can WILL character on someone. When it came right down to it, he REALLY wasnt worth it.

Like I said, I dont know if you want my opinion on this. I wish you strength! Please take care - Dru

Dru,
I do thank you for your opinion.....

You are right.....I wonder sometimes if I still want him in my life because I don't want to be divorced so young....

You know, with him it was the first serious relationship for me...I met him in my late 20s.....It is quite ironic actually cause I was worried I would not meet anyone (yet alone get married) by 30 and now I will probably be divorced before my 31st birthday.....

I spend my 20's getting a carrier.....and I don't want to waste my 30s on someone who is giving me little to work with! I just don't get him! He asks me out to do stuff now more then he did when we were still together..... but then when I call and I initiated contact and he is not in the mood he cannot even try to carry a conversation with me for 5 minutes?

I want to be understanding that it is the depression but come on now...5 minutes?.....so why does he not just say "this is not a good time, can I call you back?" It seems so imature to me, the way he is acting.....

Sadly, I feel as though I have matured 10 years through this experience....and he is still were he was..early 20!...so now I feel like there is a huge gap between us....his laughing when he asked me about how my work is going really ticked me...but I am quite satisfied that I called him on it without LBing!


I don't know what I will do....I find Plan B quite attractive and frankly am thinking along those lines more and more....I don't want to be dealing with him till I have nothing left (i.e. till I don't give a dam anymore)....I will see what happens this month....I did not want to rush into no contact....but I think I am on my way.....

I am getting quite tired....I think he is getting all he watned.....me of his back and still here.....what am I getting????? I got to think on that....

Thanks again Dru....hope you are doing well...are you also seperated?

Daisy

Daisy~
I understand about questioning yourself, as I've just been
through a period of doing that exact same thing, but I
think we both have to remember it is our H's that have the
problem, NOT US !
We have come into a marriage with every hope of a happy
lifetime together only to find out our H's have "issues"
and don't seem to be able to follow through with the goal
we started out with.
I believe, and have always told my H that it's not his fault
he has depression and/or other emotional/mental issues, but
it IS his fault that he is not pursuing a full evaluation,
review of his meds, or whatever it takes to get a correct
diagnosis and treatment going. I think you've said your
H is on meds, but do they seem to be helping ? Could he
have other issues or disorders ? Does he need further/or
better treatment- such as different meds or therapy ?

In the talking you have done, has H said a real reason that
he wanted to move out, be on his own ? Mine has operated
under the "theory" that he isn't happy, so therefore it
must be because of the marriage, or because of me (my IC
has said this is really common for people with depression
or other disorders to blame an outside source rather than
their own condition). Of course, as it turns out, mine was
having an A, so that changed the whole scenario.
Do you think that your H could be involved with anyone ?
Is there any way for you to try to find out so you can know
what you are dealing with and where to go from here ?

Do you think H realizes how you feel and how serious this is
to you ? That you are not going to "sit around" waiting
indefinitely ? Has he mentioned wanting to D ?
Just some thoughts I'm throwing out- I know it's SO hard
to know what to do !! When H moved out, did he take all
his stuff ? Are your finances seperated ?

Nothing new here- I didn't hear from WH all day yesterday
but got home from my rehearsal last night (I sing in a
group) and there was a phone message from WH, asking that
I call him as he needed some information about one of his
credit card accounts (I write the checks for our bills from
our joint account and all his paperwork and files are at
our house). I called him on his cell and he answered- said
he was at his rented place. I gave him the info he needed
(he said he is consolidating some credit cards) and we just
talked briefly. I did find it interesting that his original
call had come from his office (at 915pm) as I've felt that
he was probably spending his evenings with the OW, or at her
house. Could still be the case- he may have just had some
work to do, she might have been busy, or who knows, he may
have been looking at the internet dating stuff again !!
Also interesting that he was back at his own place by the
time I called at 10pm- so apparently wasn't spending the
night for whatever reason...
Today I've not heard anything. Will just be heading home,
taking the dog for a walk, taking a bath, etc.

Hang in there- I know it's hard ! I hope the IC session
will help- mine does !
Slammed

Slammed...
Are you getting tired yet? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I am so tired of all this today...and I am meeting a mutual friend and have this feeling like I should be acting all "together" so IF word somehow travels over to H's universe....I should not come of as still hurting....what a mess.


H has been on meds since before we met.....then 1st year of M, he went off them (his choice!) then 3 months later or so went back on them....was talking about how they are not working etc....then just last winter he was seeing the doctor and trying to get on new meds....ended up with more meds and higher dosage! He and the doctor were 'experimenting' with the meds when he left.......then in the summer he went of them again (again his choice!) then went back on them in the fall.......I assume he is on them now...but who really knows what he is doing.....He did seek help himself (that is before we met) and does believe he needs medication....so I really don't know why he is doing all this of and on stuff.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Slammed....sure H could be involved in some A....I just don't want to believe he is.....I can tell you that that would drain the last bit of love I got for this man.....when I asked him if there was someone else, he said NO! so if he has been lying to me, I really want to believe I am done with him! (but as we all know it is different once it happens <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />....)


As far as D is concerned....No, H never mensioned D...NEVER! He just said he wants his own life, freedom to do what he wants....be friends....I don't think he gets it yet that WE will get Ded here....he cannot avoid it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

At first our finances were not seperate....I paid for my bills and his......when he came with the 'lets be friends' thing...that is when we seperated everything.....I don't give him a penny now and don't plan to....he has not asked me for anything.....you know when he left he told me I owed him...so I should pay for his rent and stuff....now he works.


When he left he took some essentials.....but left most of his stuff behind......Then, after he said no more MC, I took all his stuff into the basement....He set for the cats in Sept and took some stuff (like winter cloths and his quitars)....left the rest there and it is still there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />......he did take the engagement ring (I gave it back)....now I wonder if he pound it...I want to ask, but I am afraid the answer is he did pound it and that will just drain the LB more<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />....


2 weeks ago he did come by and noticed that one of his books was in my bookshelve (I guess I missed it when I was cleaning out his stuff) and he took it.....I figured it was his but still asked what was the title...I was curious....he looked at me and said "it is mine"....smiling and laughing....I said "yes, I figure, just was curious about the title" and let it go....he still things it is funny <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />......

Then he asked me last month if he could have one more towel....I gave it to him....

He is really behaving like he moved out of his mother's home and can be back any time.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />



I have to say that I really believe he does not get it! He does not get it! AHHHHH! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> You do not tell your wife you want to be just friends! We are not in high school! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> You say "I want a D".......He does not get it slammed....and will he???? who know.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I got to seriously consider what Dru said....because if I keep this up IF he ever does gets it....I'll be just done with him if I don't go to NC soon......I will think on this...

Thank Slammed! It means a lot to have you post to me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />...you have so much to deal with.....thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />....

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hi WDaisy,

I think you nailed it on the maturity issue. That, along with whatever problems he needed the meds for, is huge in a marriage. I always say marriage isnt for the weak or faint of heart! You sound very together, he sounds like a little kid (from this side of the screen). And NO, I dont think he's gonna 'get it', either. That's the joy of immaturity... just go around with your head in the sand, and the problems will go away. Marriage is nothing if not an opportunity to grow, and he chose to run away. This was the perfect opportuniy to deal with his issues.

I'm working on the same issues with my H (no, we never seperated). We are in MC and he fully acknowledged the fact that he's 'missed some stuff' and the term 'arrested development' has come up a few times. But, he's admitted the problem and is actively trying to catch up. I'm very lucky, in that regard. He's a sweetheart and I love him, and it'd kill me to have to give him up. But, I wouldnt live with him the way he was - I was fully prepared to D him. I HATE psycho-drama's, and I would have left rather than live with him in such an unhealthy state. Guess that makes me the wimp, as I just could not have taken it. I dont know how people here go on as long as they do, sometimes.

From what you said, you picked him because of the timing... if anything I bet you'll hold out for a real man of character next time (no history of meds, depression, etc.). You wont regret the wait, as you see how costly a mistake can be. Trust me, you're young, you only lost a few years with this guy. You're wiser now, you'll do much better next time. So many here are fighting for their 20-25 year marriages, it's horrible.

Please take care - Dru

Dru,



I could not convince my H that relationships take work....he believed that if we were ment to be it would all work itself out...... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

So I was doomed if I did nothing and doomed if I tried to resolve the problems..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I am really thinking hard about the Plan B....I spoke to my friend who at first told me to give it a year....and she agreed with you....not to waste time and find out if there is any indication on his end that he has some interest to work on this....and get myself to were I don't see him....

I feel that in the last week my LB has been draining faster....


I just cannot believe that a person would choose to stay immature like he has choosen.....I really thought he would try to work on this....it is not like we don't love each other....we do and it just seems such a waste to though all this to the side......how can he live with himself knowing he loved me and walked away from a woman who loved him? I just don't get it? It is not like with someone else it will work....this is just going to repeat itself......makes me sad........I wish I was not the one that got cough up in his mess....
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

You are lucky Dru.....your H did realize he needed to do something.....a person has to want to change....I am glad he is working on it.....that is all I wanted....just to try to work on it...see what happens....but H just gave up....

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Daisy,
I was just looking at Slammed's thread and saw a comment you made about talking to yourself on your own thread, and I thought "UH OH! I hope someone hasn't fallen through the cracks!" so I searched for your thread, and realized that your title was something I never looked at before. I can't speak for everyone else here, but for myself, I never looked at your thread, I didn't want to talk about my WxH's relationship, but I had to anyway! he flaunted it in front of me. he moved in with his OW the day he left our house, and two days later he showed up with her, in her car, to take our boys out to dinner! He was (and is) a very sick man. One comment I have made - which you have also made - is that my WxH acted like this was a high school romance. Like we were BF/GF, but we had "broken up" so now he could hold hands with someone else in the halls at school. We were married 18 years!! I even remember one time he made a comment that he had told a mutual friend of ours about "us". I said "What, exactly, did you say has happened to "us"? His response was "I told him we had broken up."

Broken up??? he was over 40, we had been married 18 years, we have two teenagers, he leaves for a MOW, and he tells people we had "broken up"?


anyway, enough about me.

I simply have to address something here:


Daisy! You ARE worth it!! You are SO WORTH IT.
By reading your thread, I can tell that your self esteem has really suffered lately.
Your H has left you feeling like "If only I were a better wife, if only I had been even more supportive, even richer, even prettier....blah blah blah."
none of these thigns is true.
none of us are perfect. You haven't been the perfect W, he hasn't been the perfect H.
But the whole marriage relationship revolves around this concept: I am going to love you, and cherish only you, for ever. we will each have times when we are healthy, or sick, or rich or poor, but we will still support each other.
It is NOT OK for a H to move out and tell his W he jsut needs his space, he just needs his freedom. That is NOT OK!!!
Reading through your earlier posts, you actually said "He needed his space, and that was OK."
It is not OK to tell your W that she can not just stop by to visit without an appointment.You are his WIFE. You should be able to stop by whenever you want to.

Honey, you are walking on egg shells around him and that is horrible. Your job is suffering, and he laughs about it!

You are beating yourself up because you pushed him to get a job, pushed him to finish his education. Lets look at the other side. Lets say he never got a job, and stayed home for the past 2 years doing nothing. Would you be feeling good about your R right now? No way.

At this point he is saying that money is not important, yet he is working 7 days a week. Why is he working so much if money is not important. What is important to him anyway?

There is a book you need to read. PLEASE get it. you can order it from Amazon.com. it is called "Women Who Love Too Much". It will help you to see why you are trying so hard to fix this R, by yourself. Please read it.

I want to leave you with one more thought. Something Dr Phil says. the only thing worse than staying in a bad relationship for 2 years, is staying in a bad relationship for two years and 1 day.

I am sure that right now you feel like you have a lot of time, and heart, invested in this R, but that does not mean you have to invest even more time.

You are worthy. You have a lot to offer in a R. If this man doesn't see that, and doesn't wnat to reach out and accept the gift you are offering him, then he has made a very bad choice. But it was his choice.

Hey Womanoffaith...(love the name)

Thanks for your thoughtful post <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.....I know my sitch does not really fit in here...hard to use Plan A and Plan B(although I will probalby use it anyway) and so I think it is hard to know what I can do here.....besides there are people here dealing with so much pain that the WS is causing (so much drama! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />) .....I have actually gotten a lot of thougtful posts recently so I am quite happy about that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> THank you all! I got lots to think about.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



I think I got to stop questioning myself.....I was quite confident before I met him and somehow along the way I became less so....but I am coming around again....

A friend that I actually got to know as H left, told me yesterday that I am a strong person (she did not realize that)....I told her that I am, she just happen to get to know me in my weakest hour...my H had just broke my heart.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />..

I don't want to waste too much time on this relationship...I feel myself moving on every day...I do have sad days and I cry but it seems to be more because of my acceptence that it is over....I don't want my M to end, I want to fight for it...but I cannot do it alone... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

My IC actually said something interesting the other day...He said, if I get to Plan B that does not mean that the M is over...H could still come and work on it...sadly I just don't believe it anymore... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

WOF, thank you for your kind words. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />..I know I am worth it...this man does not see it.....sadly because he left I started to question everything about me...what more can I do?...I know there are things I can do and I am working on it...but whatever it is that he wants I just cannot give him.....I gave and gave (I am a Giver not a Taker - at least most of the time) and he took and took but still wanted more....At the end...I can only give so much.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

What is the man doing?????!!!! I spoke to a friend today, and I actually met him because H and he etended the same MA program and so he is actually H's friend....well they use to be very close but apperantly they are not anymore as this friend does not aprove of H just leaving! He is actually 2 years younger than H and he and his wife are about to have a baby and they had their own share of problems, so he does know that M takes work and you make a commitment and you don't just leave without giving it all first! So this friend did tell that to my H...so they are not too close now....Makes sense, H does not want to hear that what he is doing is just giving up.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

He wants everyone to be supportive of him... when he first told his parents that he left they were not supportive and he came to me and was telling me how hurt he was that they were not supportive of his leaving the M and basically wanted me to be there for him.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />It blew me away! He wanted me to be there for him because his parents were not supportive of him leaving ME! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> AHHHH! What a guy? I told him I could not have this conversation with him.....I just though, "are you kidding me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />?"

Anyway....

It was nice to talk to this friend...I told him I thought my H was being naive to think we could just be friends...and he agreed...He does not understand what H is doing with his life....I am glad I am not alone in think that way!

I have not spoken to H since Monday and I have no desire to talk to him any time soon (that makes me sad <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />)....but there is nothing I get from him but more heartache..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I am off now...got to do some work...I am doing a lot of catching up these days....where did summer and fall go??

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

So, I have not heard from H since Monday.
Well, he did send me an email telling me to make other plans for cat sitting for Christmas. That was it.

He has been ignoring me for days now. I feel like he is Plan Bing me.

I have been getting really suspecious here for days now and I have played right into it all by going and checking his email. I am not proud of myself. I wish I did not know his password but I do and I looked there. He has been emailing some girl Kim. I don't remember any girl by that name, but I might have forgotten. She appears to be in the east coast and from her reply (his message was not attached) sounds like he has not talked to her for some time now... She was friendly but not overly so. Just said what she was up to etc...He has replied to her again ...no other message from her yet....

So idiot me I could not let the sleeping dog lie (or whatever the saying is) and I looked at his email drafts...really in the hope that there was something about our R in there...instead I found an old email (they were all old) to his brother at the time the 2 of us met... that he likes me yet is troubled by his friend Kim that he ran across in the summer and how he believes sooner or later they will end up together as they have a lot in common...

I presume he is now contacting her again.....

I know I am going on many assumptions here but this one hurts....

Now, I am suspecious that his trip this christmas to visit his old guitar teacher (which I know he has wanted to do in the past) is nothing but a ploy to see her...I am so stupid...I have no evidence, but my brain is rasing...

I am really tired of all this....I wish I never checked that stupid email...what did I get out of it....just more pain....


Edited to add:
The trouble is that this is a man who invited his ex-girlfriend to the wedding without telling me she was his ex...and then telling me later..."did I not tell you she is my ex?" I always trusted him, even when he went to CA last year and the 2 of them hung out...but now I am so messed up, I don't trust him as far as I can throw him and we are not even together so theoratically he can do what he wants...but dammit we are still married and it is not like he is doing anything to change that fact - like filling...no I bet he figures I'll take care of it as I do everything else.....

Daisy

Today was a rough day. I thought about everything again, the past few months and I just wish I could go back and do so many things differently.

At the same time, he is still behaving irrisponsibly....We have been having trouble with health insurance. He is on my policy but he was suppose to give them some papers and has not done it and now I keep getting letters stating I owe them money, late charges...penalties, etc. It's been going on since Sept. I told him about it again 2 weeks ago and he said he would take care of it (he said he took care of it earlier, talked to someone)....Anyway, he did not do anything about it in the last 2 weeks. Send me an email saying he will take care of it on Monday. I will go there on Tuesday and if it is not done, I think I'll just take him of the policy.

We are also waiting for the police report for him for immigration. I did my in early july and he was suppose to do it as well, but did not, ended up doing it sometime in Aug. Now we are waiting for it to come back from the FBI so we can send it of to immigration and it is really late (our deadline to turn it in was in Sept). I send mine in and explained that his didn't come yet. Nothing is happening with the immig. papers as we wait and it is getting to me. I am worried that the police check got lost in the mail (it happens). I will wait till the end of the month and tell him to start the process all over again just in case. I am so tired of this. Can he not take care of it?

It really ticks me off. For the immigration to go through for him, we have to be married. Mine will go through because of my job but his will not once we D. This man does not even get that he'll be kicked out of this country (Canada)once we D. In reality I could write a letter now, stayting that we are seperated and that alone will stop the process for him. Yet I am the one who is concerned about this, not him. I think he just assume I will stay married to him and do nothing so that it can all work out for him! No way!

Nothing is changing. At first I thought he was not going to go home for Christmas or thanksgiving because of money, but now that he is planning a trip to Idaho, it seems to me he is trying to ignore the family and the questions that they will ask. He is not doing anything about our M. Ignoring me basically. He said lets be friends at the end of Aug. I am so close to telling him to get the divorce papers....I am even at a point where I will file them myself....but really I don't feel right about it. I did not ask for this! I do not want to end it!

I don't know what to do. He sais he wants to be just friends. He does not want to work on the M, so why has he not filed???? I refuse to do this for him, yet how long will I have to wait!

I give myself till end of this year and then I am going to Plan B to get myself out of this mess and then I'll let time work its magic....

Daisy

Daisy, there is another book you might want to take a look at. It's by Willard F. Harley and is called *Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders.*

***I could not convince my H that relationships take work....he believed that if we were ment to be it would all work itself out.***

This is the very definition of a Freeloader - someone who honestly believes that a "good" relationship takes no work or effort at all. Freeloaders are worthless in long-term relationships. I know because I'm married to one, too.

Good luck and please take a look at that book.
Mulan

Thanks Mulan...I don't have the book. I read something about it on Pepperband's thread....I'll have a look at it.

There is a big part of me that knows that I am better of without him if he doesn't change...but I cannot ignore the feelings that I have for him. I guess I always believed he would want to work it out with me through thick and thin....but now I know the answer is no.

Anyway, feeling really low today. I feel really panicky and this is when I always do something dum like calling over there demanding something from him that he cannot give me....I just need to get through this day. I feel like I am back at square one.

Daisy

H and I emailed each other through out the weekend, just logistics and such. He emailed me again on monday, and that is when I decided to put a stop to it.

I will not have an email relationship with him. I realized I am not done fighting for this marriage. I called him up and asked him to meet me for coffee today. We met after my IC session.

In IC we talked about what needed to happen for me to have "the" conversation. IC told me not to approach it as a last conversation or as some 'ultimatume' type of conversation, but to get the ball rolling and start talking about the relationship. Ofcourse he warned me that it could be the last conversation IF H says there is nothing to say, I am not interested to work on it. IC said to be prepaired for that to happen. I am not yet, but I am getting there.

So, I am thinking this through. What do I say, how do I approach it. We have not discussed the R in 3 months. I do not want to stop fighting....At least I want to know that I ended by making an attemp to save the M. At this point I have not. Our last talk, was me getting frustrated and hurt and basically saying that I agreed with him, the M was not good and we should live seperately as he wanted. I regret saying that now. I was reading some books and they said to agree with your partner...but now I wonder if I misunderstood it and basically gave my H the impression that I was done.

Well, I am back. I will talk to him soon. I am getting ready for it. I am not happy with the status quo.

Any thoughts on how I should approach it. Should I basically say what people typically say in their Plan B letter?

That I want the M, state what I have done that contributed to him leaving, what I have learned, that I understand that there are no guarantees but I still want to try....to see...take it SLOW...that I don't want him to move back in....but see what happens....?

Any thoughts are appreciated. I don't want him to feel that I am pressuring him, because I really don't want to do that. I just want him to see that I still want to work this out, but that I understand that it will take time, and that I really want to take it slow....

Thanks!

Daisy

Hey daisy-
I understand what you are saying and also the suggestions
your IC has made, since this is somewhat similar to the
ideas my IC has had for me.
Mine has said that pushing my WH, or giving an ultimatum
would not be a good idea, but also agrees that we can't
just go on without any changes indefinitely. ("status quo")

I have tried to incorporate some of the items from the
Plan B letter into some of my conversations with WH, and
that seems like the angle you might want to use also-
letting him know you aren't happy and can't continue with
things as are, letting him know you love him and want to
try to restore your M, and letting him know what you would
need in order for this to happen.
Hopefully you should be able to get some decent feedback
from your H to get a feel on where "he is at"- whether it
be that he wants to try and isn't sure how, doesn't know
what he wants, or doesn't want to try - at least that would
help you know what to do yourself -?

How was the conversation with him after your IC ?
Slammed

Slammed,
Thanks for your thoughts.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I am thinking of writing a modified plan B letter (for my sitch) to get out what I want to say...and then see what he says....so that is my plan now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, get my thoughts on paper first so that I can say it out loud (it will be hard <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />)! Right now I don't even know my first sentence <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />!

We had a nice talk with H yesterday <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />...kept it low key, work etc....I left feeling positive about it....again when we met he was happy to see me ( I can tell when he is happy to see me vs. when he is just in a "ok, whatever, you are sort of in my way" mood.) He gave me this nice smile that just left me vulnerable <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> (you know when your partner smiles at you vs. when just your friend does). He complimented me on my scarf, asked if I made it, etc...(I did)...I know that H like the fact that I crochet, knit etc...he really likes that about me...so that is why I wore it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> !

HE talked a lot about work, the people he is working with, etc....he did most of the talking <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, I listened but was attentive to the conversation....it was nice. We talked 45 minutes and it was really nice (not like a week ago!). I have tickets to a concert and asked him if he would like to come with me. I was going to go with a friend but she is moving, and cannot make it. He said he would check at work if he could shift some hours around. Concert starts at 7pm, he works till 8pm. Turns out he has to work till 8pm. So at first I said I would just pick him up at 8pm and we would be late (there is band playing first before the main band - NIN - starts)....but now I will just go on by myself to be there at 7pm and he'll show up after 8pm. Going by myself is really OUT Of my COMFORT zone, but I have been telling myself to get beyond my comfort zone. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The fact is that I would like to see the beginning. Furthermore, if I want to attract H back, he has to see that I am working on myself, getting myself to where I am not easily intimidated and I am not afraid to be alone!

So, long story! Sorry. Just thought I get it all out there....

I will see him now to drop off the ticket. Hope it goes well. It is still very awkward to say good buy to each other. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Saying hello is nice, but good buys are still awkward. Could that be a good sign in some bizarre way? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Daisy

I tried to have the best time I could at the concert...but H was tired from work and just seemed really exhausted. That is when he is difficult to talk to, but I did my best and the concert was just amazing so he did get into it....It was a long day for me. I had helped a friend move during the day, then set in trafic, just to get home, change, and then turn around again to get downtown. I was tired myself. We ended up talking at Denny's afterwards. I tried to be possitive as best as I could and pleasant.

Last night I ended up working on my "speach"....I don't really know what else to call it....i guess in some sense it is a Plan B letter live! I want to say what I have to say, not leave it to a letter. I know it will be hard, but I do not want to avoide this conversation. I know that WS here are given a letter since they are in the "fog" and do not hear things anyway....I am not dealing with an A, and I do believe I need to say everything and get it all out in the open....

It will be hard. I have it written down now and it is just so hard not to choke up and cry....I know I will cry when I talk to him, I just hope that it will not be interpreted wrongly by him.....

But I do feel that it is time for me to have the talk, tell him how I feel. I am ready to accept whatever happens....If this is the last conversation we'll ever have, so be it. It hurts, but I am not happy with the status quo. I realized finally, I have nothing to loose by telling him all, and everything to gain....If he says he is not interested in me in any shape or form, I will gain closure....and that will be better than to live in this limbo land.....

I know that only by talking to him will I be able to walk away knowing I tried all.....I know I will regret if I do not talk to him and just send a letter. I have enough regrets, I will not have more.


My draft of what I plan to say is in the next post....My objective is to open a door for a discussion about our relationship.....that is what that letter is about....


If he shuts the door in my face....than I will have to add on to my letter...have not done that yet!

con't bellow...

Here is what I plan to say to my H.... in order to open a door for discussion.....It has some elements of a Plan B letter.....

Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated....

I hope I will be able to get it all out, I do plan to request that he allow me to say everything that I need to say....

************************************************************
H,
I would like to talk about us. It’s been several months since we last talked. I was in a lot of pain in the summer and I was not able to look at the situation clearly. Now, I am doing much better. I am an emotional person so I still get emotional about this some. At the same time I am able to look at this more rationally.

I am looking closely at my life; the counseling is very helpful that way. I am working out a lot of issues. I see more clearly now my actions that directly contributed to the problems in our relationship. Since the beginning I kept a lot of my feelings to myself. At some point my love for you grew and became so strong that I was afraid that I would loose you if I was too open with you. As a result, many times I did not approach you directly and in some way I hoped time would fix it all. I was afraid to talk to you and approach you and at the same time I was afraid to hear you out. I ultimately addressed other unrelated issues such as cleaning etc. because it was easier, instead of getting at the root of the issues and being more open with you. I did not have any experience in a serious relationship of this kind. I did the best I could given what I knew at the time. Now I know that by not coming to you and talking to you about us and not listening to your concerns about us and not being open to this dialogue between us, I directly contributed to an environment that was not open and where real intimacy was not possible. I very much regret that.

I want to work on that part of myself so that I can have intimacy and closeness with a partner. I believe we can have a better relationship than we have had by being open with each other. I want to have a relationship where there is no doubt that any feelings by either one of us can be expressed and any concerns can be addressed and approached with understanding and respect. I have not given up on us.

I love you. At some point I made the mistake of taking you being in my life for granted. I will never make that mistake in my life again. You are a good man. I like and respect you and I would like to be there as your partner to share your goals and dreams as well as to share mine with you.

I am finding the time we have spent together since you came back from California difficult. I love you and my feelings for you are not those of a mare friend. I love spending time with you, talking to you brings a smile to my face and I love to see you smile. I always love to hear what you have to say.

I want more with you. Being unable to kiss you, hug you or just hold your hand across the table is painful. I would love to enjoy those moments again. My feelings for you prevent me from being just a friend.

I honestly don’t know if this relationship could/can work. All I know is that I have learned a lot and am still learning and I want to have a life with you and I am ready to do my part to slowly find a way to each other and restore our relationship without any guarantees.

I have thought hard about this and I wanted to share my feelings with you.

************************************************************

Any thoughts? My other objective is not to be disrespectful! Also, I don't want to LB. Nor do I want to come of as if I am pressuring him.....

Thank you .......

Daisy

I may need to read your entire thread but generally a 'kinda' plan b' is usually not effective.

Seems like you r trying t/d a stronger plan A showing you have made your channges.

While plan B c/b aroudn the corner, this c/b a final attempt at getting him to see the benefit of being a 'valuable family member'. Then if he don't get it, then go to plan B.

If you try to shortcut and merge the 2, it could water down the effect of plan B.

What r u trying to accomplish with this letter?

JMHO,
L.

Orchid,
Thanks for your reply....

To sum up so you don't have to go back and read my story....

There is no A (I have no evidence anyway). H left because he was not happy. For 3 months we talked regularly, saw each other, were physical, etc. We did talk about us, but I was really hurt and I did LB some. Overall I found it difficult to talk to him and all I wanted was for him to work on the M come to MC with me and return back home. Then things kind of escalated in late Aug. He left for vacation after he told me he would continue MC and we were going to find a new counsler (we did not like the first one at all). I called him in CA, he did not want to talk. Finally I spoke to him and he was not too happy and then ended up sending me an email stating he did not want to do MC, just wanted a friendship with me and wanted to live seperate lives. In my hurt and anger I did say we did not have a good M and I agreed to live seperate lives. Since then we have seen each other (gone to movies, dinners, slept together 7 weeks ago, etc.) BUT NO R TALK!

I cannot go on like this. I want to talk about the R. This letter is what I plan to say, to talk about the R. It cannot be ignored anymore. I am not happy with the way things are.....

I know what you are saying.....I guess I can always, write a formal plan B letter so that he has it in writing...

I have always avoided the difficult conversations with him and I do not want to do that again. That is why I want to make a last attemp to discuss this.

Maybe what I will do is say the above and is he shuts the door just say that I respect his decision. Then I will go home write a Plan B letter and include the part about NOT being friends and not to contact me from now on. I know it will not be as powerful but he will have it in writing to refer to IF he so chooses.....

Does this sound like a bad plan?

Daisy