Time to stop threadjacking from sharky's post - so I thought I'd move this elsewhere.


Thanks for your response - what you say resonates with me. I believe you - I just had hoped there were some studies or something I could read more about.

I realized recently that my H had destroyed the trust through a variety of broken boundaries and other things, and I truly had not felt emotionally safe with him for a long time. I believe the safe parts of my love died long ago - as far back as 1998, when I had a moment of sanity. I even gave him an ultimatum at that time. I was prepared to leave him then - but when he appeared to follow through, I backed off.

He is the one who initiated the current sitch - and has adamently insisted on the D. He did start it, but when he found out I actually expected to get half the equity in the house and was willing to get a lawyer to accomplish it - his efforts at the D ground to a halt.

A mutual friend does not believe he is ready to let me go even though he really kicked me out of his life.

I do not know when the love left me - but I do know it's gone. The progression you described is a quite accurate statement of what happened with me. Funny, I didn't realize it - and wasn't the one to initiate the current sitch. Maybe he sensed it and that's why he wanted out.

Hi guys I want to give my opinion and I'll probably get fired upon.

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Quote:

The reason for the difference in men's and women's thinking on this is that men live in a world of conflict. Increasingly, so are women, which may be a factor in why the divorce rate skyrocketed when women entered the workplace. Men may not like conflict, but we deal with it and then let it go. Women, at least in my experience, will not tolerate conflict. Everytime a man and his wife have a conflict, she makes a permenant mental record of it. The effect is cumulative. After she has experienced whatever her tolerance is, she will no longer feel emotionally safe and her love for her husband dies (or at least is ignored).

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I disagree that women can deal with conflict and let it go. Some women and men, are conflict avoiders. I'seen it on both sides that if a conflict comes up to resolve an issue, the conflict is taken as a negative act rather than a positive resolve. If women were conflict resolvers then why are so "many" having affairs and hidding it from there spouse? Why are there so many lesbians that turn and hate males?

I do agree that women do make a mental note of things, why? Because its in the nature of her makeup. I do agree that men aare in a world of conflict, but this is why. It's in womans nature to help, her help is a powerful tool. A man can have the idea and fix,scratch his head in how to apply it. He can tell it to the woman and she'll say how about if you did this, boom its done? So men and woman play great roles in life.

The mental note deal - Men are visionaries and so are Women. That's why in marriage the womans greatest place is to be in "Submission", to her husband meaning submitted to the vision, purpose and destiny of the relationship in equality and be empowered and not be a doormat. When there's a vision mixed with love, the relationship takes off to another level. Therefore her focus becomes how to help the vision succeed. So if her vision or help is injured in a relationship she makes a mental note, if its painful then starts to withdraw from the relationship.

But in all this I've seen the "mental note deal" unmanaged in women that they walk in extreme "Bitterness and Unforgiveness" toward there spouse, never letting anything go from even 15 years ago. Then it all builds up into something that its really not. They get more sensitive and walk on eggshells to avoid conflict. Sure they may have been injured but they keep a tally, rather than removing old baggage. So when women are hurt, everything said or done is filtered through this mental note of injury, and they mark you. By the time a woman gets in an affair, they found another vision (OP), the only problem, it's an illusion.....It's an escape from from the injured vision she once had.

We weren't addressing whether women are conflict resolvers or avoiders, EC, but how women handle conflict. They may do just as well or badly as a man at this, but, say what you will, they do not every let it go. Every married man you talk to will tell you that they will have a conflict with theri wife and almost invariably, if they become upset, they wiil come at their husband with some hurtful issue, sometime from years in the past, with bitterness. He has no idea of what she's talking about, buit she sure does. The whoile incident is stored and can be recited in detail.

When women do this - and some do it as a control method - marriage therapist call it unfair fighting, because they are not dealing with the issue at hand, but deliberately manipulating the man in order to win the arguement. Man's natural reaction to this is to shutdown and stonewall -- unfortunately, something we use as aggressively as women use past hurts (or perceived hurts). Here's an example. Once, in our first year of marriage, my now-ex-wife decided to try a new hairsyle. When she came home and asked me what I thought, I told her it didn't compliment the shape of her face and made it look puffy. She didn't say anything more than she didn't really care for it either. Yet I noted that for the rest of the evening she was rather distant and cold to me. Now let's skip forward several years to a MT session. Here, in response to somethig I said, she lashed out with: "Remember that time you didn't like my hairstyle and called me fat!?!?! You've done that our whole marriage, ridiculing me and trying to make me feel bad about myself!" I had no idea of what she was talking about and had to rack my brain for hours before I remembered -- then I became angry at her blatant and deliberated misrepresentation/misperception of the true facts and her using it as a weapon to avoid the real issue. But I also understood that I had unwittingly and unknowingly hurt her feelings and she had never forgotten it. The MT, of course, called her down and told her we didn't play that game on her time. No dirty fighting; stick to the issue at hand.

The ability to forgive is a major problem in our society. I believe this is more of a problem for women than men, but we both tend to not work on our capacity to forgive. I was discussing htis with a woman friend over breakfast this morning. She agrees that it's a problem for most of her friends who have troubled marriages.

She also said her opinion is that women's trust is too fragile, too easily broken. A friend of hers had called her a few days before to tell her how her husband had gone out with some buddies the night before. He's done this about once per month for several years; each of them has a regular boy's/girl's nigh our. Well, on this night, he got to shooting pool and brinking beer with his friends and lost track of time. Instead of his normal ten o'clock arrival time, he was almost midnight getting home. She confronted him and he assured her that he was just having fun and had lost track of the time. No, he wasn't out with a woman and she was welcome to call his friends and confirm this. Now she tells my frined "I will never be able to trust him ever again. I don't know if I can rermain married to a man I cannot completely trust." For coming home a couple of hours late? My friend told her she needs to get a grip, that sh's made mountains out of molehills her entire married life and it's beginning to hurt her marriage.

I cannot agree with you that men or women are visionaries. Some are, but most are not. A visionary has the capacity to see beyond the ordinary and have a much larger understanding of reality. Were this the case, our divorce rate would be a mere fraction of what it actually is.

EC - sorry, but I'm not sure what you are saying.

I know plenty of men - my H included - who hold grudges from the past. In my case, my H stuffed resentments that he openly denied having at the time. Things HE encouraged me to do, that he actually secretly resented. And threw back in my face 15 years later. Things that could have been POJA'd 15 years ago if I'd known. Dishonesty may have been his way of handling conflict, but for me it destroyed the last threads of trust. Trust - not about coming home 2 hours late, but about knowing your partner is honest with you. When people don't play straight, it's hard to maintain trust - and intimacy is built on trust.

Are you saying that it is the perogative of women to hold grudges like this? I think you and I understood CheckURHeart's post differently. I think women are raised to be the nurturers, who keep peace and harmony on the home front. My take is that we women tend to hang on and try to fix problems, sometimes longer than we should. But when we decide to give it up, it's because we are convinced it is either beyond hope, or no longer worth the effort. And I think what CheckURHeart is saying, is when that happens, there's no turning back and no changing our minds. Because we tried every other option before giving up.

Of course, gender generalizations are always risky business! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

OK, Check - your turn!

I do agree with you that women tend to hold onto things said that injured them. But I think the damage is more stronger in women who may have been abused as a child also. Some connect the current event with the past from childhood when you never knew them prior. And they take the current event as "all my life' this or that has happened to me and I'm not taking it anymore. You're left speechless what they're talking about.

What I mean by women are visionaries, I'm not speaking of building some great waterpark, library, etc.... I'm talking about on a personal level. A man can have an idea, a woman gets a vision to make it happen. One thing I have found that frustrates a woman is that when she don't know what's happening in the house. Men tend to keep the plan in there head and move with it. Women want to know how it's laid out. When traveling men will drive until he's lost(before gps)...women want a map.....Women will decorate her house according to how she see's it. She will dress her kids and husband according to how she see's it. When she looks at a catalog, she see's vision how something would look on her or H,kids.....Women look at mens shoes to find his story, before the man says anything...

Most women have a vision of what kind of relationship they want and how they want it to go.....One thing I can't understand is that why women who are very precious would allow a man to turn her vision of great success about herself into her becoming a (wh***) and she's happy with that and think she's doing the right thing, praising OM for what he's done? (degrading her) What kind of man is proud of what he has done?....

I think the desciption of the "Fog" is a marital vision that is lost from is true foundation and purpose and has turned to a lie. By this time a WS is now walking in blindness, following a false vision unable to see his/her condition.

EC, your last post is so full of inaccurate stereotypes about men and women. There most assuredly are gender differences and, as an old sociology professor of mine was fond of saying, behind every stereotype there is at least a thread of truth, even if that truth is a biased misperception.

Both men and women have the capacity for being visionaries in the context in which you use the word. The types of things you describe are talents - some have them so don't - but they are not gender-specific. BTW, your statement that men will drive until they are lost is a sterotype that arose from television in the 1960s. In reality, we will do no such thing. We rarely get lost while driving and have no problems with asking for directions or consulting a map. I've never been in a car where the male driver has got us lost.

My ex is a competent cook, but not a very good one. My mother and grandmother, both great cooks, taught me to cook when I was eight years old. I have a talent for it and am a great cook myself. My W always resented that I am a better cook than her. A kitchen to her is a woman's domain and men are supposed to be helpless there with anything more complex than heating up a can of soup. Ha!

My W had her own "vision" of how the house should be decorated. I let her do as she wanted, even though I didn't particularly care for some of her decorating and furnishing ideas. Every idea I posited was rejected outright. After she was gone and a woman friend of mine came for dinner. She toured the house and said that the whole place was far too feminine for a man. I told her this was once a woman's house, so it was bound to be feminine. She countered with "Wrong! It was a woman's and a man's house, but I see no evidence of maleness in the way this house is arranged. Even your office looks girly! The most masculine things in it are your diplomas hanging on the wall. You need to transform this house into something that reflects who you are and don't ever let another woman take over your home like this."

You say that most women have a vision of the kind of relationship they want and how they want it to go. True enough, but one of the reasons our divorce courts are so packed is that too many women have a wholly unrealistic "vision" of what a marriage is and how they want it to work. Because of this, they become quickly disillusioned and unsatified. They try to remake they husbands and children to fit their vision. They become controlling, manitulative, demanding, and nag constantly. They will go so far as buying their husband's clothing, choosing styles they like instead of what he likes. They insists that their idea of how a marriage is supposed to work will be the way the marriage will work, failing to recognize that the truly successful marriage is one where the visions of the two partners is blended into one plan of action. In my opinion, if there is one thing that all married couples should learn from this site, it would be the concept of PJOA. That way, no one spouse's vision would ever rule the household.

DjV, I think that women were once nurturers, who keep the peace and harmony (wrote a paper about examples in American literature of womens' roles as stabilizers of society once in college), but in modern society, I don't believe this is generally true anymore. All too often, if the woman doesn't get her way in all things, there will be no peace and harmony. I also hypothesize that this loss of the female nurtuing role is one of the primary causes of many of the societal problems we face. When women entered the workforce, they largely gave up this role, or at least demanded that their husbands assume a shared role as nurturers. I'm proud to say that most men (at least the ones I know) have risen to the challenge. The days of the detached, unapproachable, bread-winning, ruler of the roost are gone. Yet, I believe that a happy home needs that feminine nurturing spirit; it's incomplete without it.

In many cases, it is the father who is the nurturer. My boss is a case in point. He's a vice president, with a very successful career. His wife and child want for nothing, and never will, since at 35, he has already secured a sound financial future for his family. She doesn't work, but she isn't a homemaker, either. She has a housekeeper, a cook that comes in to run the kitchen during dinner parties, etc., and yes, even a nanny to look after their daughter. She spends her days shopping, at the spa, having lunch with girlfriends who are similarly well-kept, etc. In the evenings, she demands that her husband do his job as father, since she's "had their daughter all day." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> So he gladly gets his little girl her dinner, plays with her, gets her her bath, reads her a bedtime story and tucks her in. It's his daily special time with her. Well, mother also likes to sleep in in the morning, so dad makes his daughter's breakfast and gets her ready for her day before he comes to the office. On the weekends, he takes his daughter with him as he runs errands. So you see, it is he who nurtures their daughter. His wife can't be bothered. Most of the men with whom I work are similarly engaged with their chidren.

One of my employees is currently engaged in a high-stakes battle with his STBX for joint custody of their one year-old daughter. His wife became pregnant on their honeymoon (lied about being on the pill) and he scrambled to buy a house and get it ready for a new child. Two weeks after the baby was born, he came home to find their house (they'd only been in it a month) nearly empty and she was gone. Turns out, she didn't want a husband, but only a baby - and a father on the hook for child support. Her idea is that she'd be granted sole custody and trumped up abuse charges, which have since been proved false. Now this man his fighting with everything he has for joint custody. So far things aren't going well for his wife. The judge has already warned her that he's questioning her mental stability and told her that the only reason that he has not already declared her unfit and awarded sole custody to the father is that the child is so young that she needs her mother. And who is really providing the majority of the care for that baby? Why her mother, with whom she now lives. She spends her days sleeping and her nights partying with her girlfriends and going home with men she meets in the bars. Some nurturer. In my opinion, the child would be better off with her father, who will often bring her to the office with him, since it's the only time he's going to get with her that week. (I usually send him home so he can have some quality time.)

So, while I believe that most women are nurturers, men can be just as much and sometimes more.

Hi Deja Vu - Our post crossed earlier...I think your actions are justified and correct. When trust is violated everything else begins to fall apart. If a partner can't be honest with you, then what do you have? Trust is the thing that keeps things in order.

CUR - Forgive me if I sounded like I was placing sterotypes on men or women. I agree some women are talented and some are not. Some men are talented and some are not. Now you raised another thought? Are some marriages in trouble because of missplaced talents? How does a couple determine duty, verses talent? You mentioned you knew how to do things better than your wife. So how does a woman come to grips when a man knows how to do the thing better her, without her feeling less than a woman or becoming crippled as a woman?

As far as women being nurtures is true women have a special touch. Men and women play different roles.

Here's something I went through why I feel men and women play roles. When I was 11yrs old I liked wires and electrical things, I even had one of those radioshack build 150 diff devices kits. One day I was bored and decided to imitate my Dad and fix an old lamp(yet not knowing what I was doing). So as I came up from the basement, I said to my mother, look what I did! I fixed this lamp. I then plugged it up, then (POP!! and Sparks started flying!!) most of the lights went off in the house. She yelled at me and told my Dad to come get this boy, he's about the burn the house down!! I was shaking in horror!!

My Dad came running in the kitchen to get me, and he said what in the world are you doing!!? I said I'm just trying to be like you and fix this lamp.....He looked, and he looked, speechless. His face instantly turned from anger to going to fix the electricity in which it was only a breaker.

Then he came back upstairs to me and said what are doing and I told him. He told me to sit down at the table, he took the lamp and looked at the work I did, he removed the tape and stuff, then said here's what the problem is, you twisted all the wires together, you must keep these two lines of power in there proper place. Then he corrected it and it worked.

So that was a valuable lesson that has always stayed with me. My mother was no help, she feared, she yelled, she could not teach me the lesson I needed, she was emotional. She could not build me up in this case. But she was great in other area's in what I needed. She nurtured me with love and other things. So my Dad enforced something in me, that my mother didn't have in her and this is part of the family break down of today. My mother was no less of a person, her makeup was different from my Dad.

Anyway, as I got older I remember what my father said " You must keep the to lines of power in there proper place". Many marriages are short circuiting because you have two powerful people that get there wires crossed. It takes two wires to make that bulb come on. So in a marriage the key is knowing how to balance the neg and pos, and keep the lights on.

A WS is absent of the lightbulb, forget the wires..

Agree - I know of several men who are.

Getting back to the original theme - do you believe that when women give up on their marriages (and are not willing to revisit their decisions) it is because they were not getting their way in the marriage? I'm sure there are some of both genders with this mindset. I believe that's partly what made my H decide he wanted out. On my side, I would probably never have left him, and would have stuck it out even if I would be better off without him. BUT then he made it clear he wanted a D - long story, but no doubt in my mind that he would not revisit this. So I left - but even at that point I had left the door open. I believe my upbringing - to be the nurturer and hold the family together - is what made me willing to work on things as long as I did. (In this case, our "family" was just the two of us - but, still...)

Fast forward - to my current state of mind and why I originally responded to your post. Through my self and soul searching and counseling since moving out (9 months ago) I have come to realize things that have changed my perspective. As a result, I have lost all willingness to work on the marriage, AND lost my love for my H. It was because of my certainty about this that I responded to your original post on the perspective of women who have decided to end their marriages. I'm sure it's a moot point now, as my H is not asking me to reconsider and I'm sure he isn't interested in it either. If for no other reason than when he digs his heels in there is no turning back for him.

All the things you and EC have written about immature behaviors of women could be applied to my H.

I now fear we are treading on thin ice by attributing certain attitudes to one gender or another. I'm thinking it's more about immaturity and/or personality disorders than about gender. Maybe when people give up for good, it's because their own personal point of no return has been reached.

"Are some marriages in trouble because of missplaced talents? How does a couple determine duty, verses talent?"

I'll answer the second question first. To a degree, yes. but that cannot be the only determinant. I've mentioned that I am a better cook than my ex. In my first marriage, my wife couldn't cook at all, so that was my responsibility. My second wife had very strict ideas about sex roles in marriage, though with a somewhat modern twist. So it offended her that I was the better cook. I thought this silly. She was a much, much better organier than I and could could get all sorts of things done in half the time. Did this offend me? Heavens no! I hated maintaining the household finances, where she didn't mind it at all, so she handled that. Did I take offense that she took on the repsonsibility for these things? Again, know. She could do in ten minutes what would take me an hour.

This brings us to an answer to your first question. No, marriages don't get into trouble because of misplaced talents. More often than any other thing, I think, they get in trouble because of misplaced loyalty. The next reason, and one that competes for first place, is unrealistic expectations of what a marriage is supposed to be and our silly romantic notions about the institution. These notions, when combined with unchecked egos are a recipie for failure.

"do you believe that when women give up on their marriages (and are not willing to revisit their decisions) it is because they were not getting their way in the marriage?"

Sometime this is true, but not just for women; men are just as guilty. Making your spouse miserable or throwing your marriage away just because you aren't getting what youi want is selfish. Becoming upset because you aren't getting what you need is a whole different story, thouh, isn't it? When people get tied up in thinking only about what they want, they aren't going to be giving their spouse what he or she needs. Moreover, by concentrating too hard on what you want and not on your needs, your needs may be being met, but you won't see it.

Women have a justifiable gripe with men. We do become complacent, bored, too tied up in our work, etc. and take our wives for granted. We have to take care not to do this. Men have a justifiable gripe with women in that they tend to stop treating their husband like their lover and treating him more like one of the children, or worse, their heavy laborer. Both behaviors breed resentment because both address wants at the expense of needs.

I believe you are right on the money Deja. This isn't about gender differences. Men and women are designed to compliment one another. In regard to your last statement, it isn't a case of "maybe" but absolutely. The divorce rate in this country echos studies about when people reach their point of no return. Women reach it far sooner than a man. I do not believe it is supposed to be this way.

Deju Vu

Ok, I agree that a woman can reach a point of no return. Women do get injured. My question is this...What are the progressions how one gets to that point?

A guy may know something happened, but he doesn't know how far this woman is to the edge. Are there certain words or actions a woman displays when she's on edge to this point?

I know when a woman detaches herself from the relationship she's made up her mind. But what is in her mind before that point?

I know she doesn't feel appreciated, but what else is taking place. What could be done if a woman says I'm at the breaking point of no return?

"A guy may know something happened, but he doesn't know how far this woman is to the edge."

If the too of them are and have been communicating effectively, this statement can never be true.

"Are there certain words or actions a woman displays when she's on edge to this point?"

Yes. Compete emotional withdrawal from her husband. This is known as emotional divorce and it happens months, somtimes years before the legal divorce. Yet, some women are very good at hiding this until they make their announcement.

For me it was first being rejected by him - and in rather hurtful ways. It wasn't about an OW - it was "I don't want to spend any more of my life with you....it's your personality... you can't change, it's who you are... " (and a lot of negative personality characteristics he attributed to me, that I've since found out others including our counselors have attributed to HIM, not me - typical by the way of a narcissist). Followed by lots of pent up rage and resentments (from things he hid and bottled up) - plus rewritten history...all in his favor, and several easily proven to be lies.

Next, it was the total lack of concern or consideration for the sitch he put me in - no help in packing, moving, etc. - I had to do this all myself in December (in Minnesota). Even though it was his idea to get a D, and I was moving out and letting him keep the house. (I have an injury that makes it hard for me to do this type of physical work. I was VERY angry about this). I had to take things with me to work each day and drop them off at a storage locker, because I simply couldn't do it any other way. He nearly cost me the closing on my house by failing to follow through with the $$ he was supposed to get for me from his refinancing - and my closing nearly fell through. He did cost me 2 % points in interest because of it. He wasn't in the least bit concerned about this - it was too bad, get over it.

Finally, it was the whole progression of personal realizations since then - from mutual friends, counselors we had seen together, and ones I've seen on my own since then... All of this added up to me finally realizing I'd been SO duped, and it was all about him, and in fact he most likely is a narcissist. I didn't believe this at first -- but now I do. I finally started listening to the counselors, and accepted that our whole relationship was based on what was in it for him... when he no longer needed me for anything, and when my successes started to make him feel like a failure... well, you can see where it had to go.

...then the legal stuff started - he decided I should get no equity from the house, even though it was my money that bought it in the first place. He conveniently ignored the $$ he took out of the house - in fact he took more than I got, but his position is I got more than I was entitled to. He even failed to inform his own attorney that he had taken money out of the house for himself. The $$ I put into our M was from my personal injury settlement, and we had a prenup on this. All of this stuff is easily provable - and not at all subjective.

It took all of this for me to give up for good. I'm ashamed to say it took all of this. That I didn't see the light without ALL of this.




Yes - when she has her attorney send him a "no more contact" letter! I'm serious. That's the point when I realized I could no longer talk to him reasonably, and that also coincided with me accepting that negotiation (of any kind) with him was over.




The destruction of certain beliefs about his character was a turning point for me. Realizing he has no integrity, and I have no respect for him. That he's a coward, who can't be straight about his feelings, and as a result leaves others to suffer from his inaction. That he was/is either so incompetent that he can't handle simple life management activities - OR (as my attorney thinks) he has learned to manipulate me so that he never has to take responsibility for anything (he was angry with me for taking responsibility for the things he would not do - especially areas of financial management that often got us in trouble. Even though he could not and would not do them, he resented me for doing them.)

What was in my head before that, was giving him the benefit of the doubt when he screwed things up - not accepting that he was a screw up and not realizing how many things he screwed up. Screw ups that always carried a price tag for somebody, and that somebody was never him. What was in my head before that, was pushing out the thoughts that he was incompetent, had no integrity, and was not trustworthy or worthy of respect. In other words, there was hidden knowledge within me of what was going on - I didn't allow myself to realize it. Deep down I knew - and I resisted many things that would have forced me to face it. I knew deep down that if I ever did face these things, I'd have to leave him and never look back.

But, if he had realized and tried to change, I would have stayed with him. Moot point as he's the one who wanted out first. And, as the counselors have pointed out, narcissists never realize there's something wrong with them, so this wouldn't have happened anyway.



I don't know, I just don't know. In my case, nothing. Absolutely nothing. He could change his blood type and it would no longer matter.

I didn't realize how powerful I am as a woman! I can "make" men act a certain way? Think a certain way? Force them to become more of a nuturer? Enforce my decorating style in the house? Change society and family life due to working outside the home? I establish my vision of what marriage and family life is to be...and then I change or makeover my husband and children to fit my image?

So where does personal responsibility and accountability come in on this? Where do boundaries come in on this? I'm just not that powerful! I can't force, or make, or change, another adult to do anything! If I tried to do these things, and my partner didn't like it..didn't agree..then it's his responsibility to speak up and decide whether or not it's acceptable to him. Or offer an alternative. Or agree to disagree. Or compromise. None of this "Well, you made me do it!" That's childlike behavior in my book.

As for holding grudges or forgiveness, men who have wandering wives are much more likely to divorce them than women with wandering husbands. Not all men....not all women.

Regarding a husband not knowing how close to the edge his wife is, what's the progression? I can only speak for myself. With my first husband, I came out and told him how I was feeling, what had changed for me, what I wanted, and asked if he'd be willing to go to marriage counseling with me. (I had previously sought to get him to discuss these concerns with me without counseling, but he wouldn't). I told him I loved him but wasn't happy with some parts of our relationship. I acknowledged that I was the one who had changed from the original dynamics of our relationship. (I had been going to individual counseling.)I wanted to stay married and raise our sons together.

He kept putting me off. Saying things like "Well, you're a counselor. You fix us!" and laugh. We got along well in many areas of our life. Lots of common interests, shared couple time, individual time, shared parenting time, etc. I tried to stayed focused on those positive things. But, my emotional needs weren't getting met.

Periodically I would bring up my concerns about our relationship and ask, again, if he'd consider counseling. I finally told him that I wasn't willing to continue with things as they were. After about a year of this, he came out and said, "I think that my mind is what I have going for me. I'd rather blow my brains out than admit there was something wrong with my mind and that I needed to go to counseling."

I gave up at that point. I stayed married another two years because of our children. He was content with our marriage as long as I went on as "normal", and made no further requests for my needs and wants being met. I talked about divorce a couple of times. He'd get upset and I'd back down, not wanting to hurt him, or disrupt our children's lives. I got very sick mentally and physically. I finally filed for divorce, figuring at the rate I was going there would be nothing left of "me" to give to our children. He was surprised that I filed for divorce. He had thought things were fine.

What a mess! It's a wonder we ever have relationships and get married!