I misunderstood the question, Chrystal. Sorry.

LOL... Hey! I resemble that remark! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Actually, to be honest, that is one of the reasons I have taken up multiple dating. My tendency is to fall hard and fast and I don't need that right now in my life. It's not a permanent thing, it's just where I need to be right now.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Apparently then, I've NEVER been ready for a relationship, since this is something I've dealt with my ENTIRE life - before marriage and infidelity and divorce ever entered into it. Who here can honestly say they ENJOY rejection?

Why do you assume that EVERY living human being should be "ready" for a relationship at some point in their life? Plenty of people are divorced because they were TOO YOUNG to have been married, which in my mind, translates to being "not ready" for a relationship. Many people are brought up to feel inferior or insecure, leaving them vunerable to problems in their relationships---in a case like that, I'd suggest that a person have counseling BEFORE they get involved with another person. Why would you knowingly bring your shortfalls into a relationship with another person? No one enjoys rejection--I agree with you on that point...HOWEVER, if a person enters into a relationship with an abnormal fear of rejection, that fear is projected on their partner and causes problems in the relationship. Is it FAIR to do this to a partner who may not have such a fear of rejection? It's normal to dislike rejection, but it's very abnormal to FEAR it..

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How do you propose that we work through our anxiety? Just sit at home and wait until one day it just vanishes on its own? I spent quite a bit of time in counseling after my ex left - the counselor told me I'm in pretty good emotional shape. I think I'll take the word of the professionals, thank you.

Anxiety can be overcome with therapy. You've gone to therapy and your therapist said you were in good emotional shape-so why are you so defensive when I suggest that perhaps you aren't ready for a new relationship? Don't forget, the "professionals" are giving their opinion on whether you're emotionally "healed" or not---only your actions determine if you're truly READY.

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We are not cowards of any kind, nor are we not ready for a relationship.

So, what's the point of your post? I don't understand, it's as if you feel the need to explain why you're not moving faster with your relationship, which would indicate to me that you're not READY, simply because you're so defensive of your position.

My position on this matter is simple: if you don't TRUST someone enough to be able to lay your feelings out on the table, then you haven't healed to a point where you're ready for another relationship. A relationship devoid of trust isn't a strong relationship at all. If you feel comfortable moving slowly,then do so, but I will maintain that your reasons for moving slowly are related to your lack of healing. There's no reason to feel defensive about this....

[color:"blue"]Wow aeri - isn't amazing the way you can determine someone else's motivations that way - see inside of them as if you were in their head.

And.... telling her how to feel?

Folks this seems just too disrespectful a judgement to let pass. I couldn't resist.

V. [/color]

Disrespectful judgement?

Are you serious? Since when does contributing an OPPOSING thought to a discussion equal a disrespectful judgement? Should I have just agreed so that I wasn't considered judgemental?

I have a good idea---why don't you tell me how I should have shared my opposing thought on this...so that I can learn to be less "judgemental".

never mind.

aeri,

I think the rub is not your disagreement with CrystalSinger's opinion, it's rather the way you presented your opinion.

I think if you expressed your opinion and left it at that, no feathers would have been ruffled. However, you dismissed CrystalSinger's position and argued that you know better than she does what is in her mind ("I will maintain that your reasons for moving slowly are related to your lack of healing".) And then when CrystalSinger begged to differ, you called her "defensive", which was probably somewhat offensive to her <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Disrespectful judgements, per Harley:

I think I see some of these in your posts to CrystalSinger.

AGG

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I think the rub is not your disagreement with CrystalSinger's opinion, it's rather the way you presented your opinion.

Ok, I'll entertain this idea....

So, what would have been a better way to make my point? She used her situation as an example of why the idea of someone "just not being that into you" may be false. I countered by sharing my opinion that she hasn't healed yet.

Are you suggesting that it's ok for a poster to share a personal experience but it's NOT ok for another poster to comment on it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

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However, you dismissed CrystalSinger's position and argued that you know better than she does what is in her mind ("I will maintain that your reasons for moving slowly are related to your lack of healing".)

I didn't dismiss her position--she didn't make a neutral statement--she laid her position out on the table, using herself as an example. I chose to use her example to illustrate MY position.

I gave my opinion, based on the information which was given here, out in the open, on a public message board. Had the poster not wanted opposing positions, she could have simply not posted at all. After all, the poster in question can't control the posts of everyone here, but she can control her reaction to them.

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Disrespectful judgements, per Harley:

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we rationalize our disrespect by convincing ourselves that we're doing our spouses a big favor, to lift them from the darkness of their confusion into the light of our superior perspective. If they would only follow our advice, we tell ourselves, they could avoid many of life's pitfalls

I think I see some of these in your posts to CrystalSinger.

With all due respect, I don't see where I was disrespectful to CrystalSinger, in the first place! Not once did I suggest that my opinion was the right one...not once did I make a judgement about Crystal Singer. I only gave my opinion that a person who feels so fearful of relationships isn't ready to date yet...

Tell me something--would you say that Harley made a disrespectful judgement about you if he suggested that having female friends is counterproductive to your marriage? I'm guessing you'd accept his opinion on the matter and think it over---this is all I'm expecting members of this message board to do--it's a OPINION....by posting, you ASKED for it.

It's my understanding that disrespectful judgements in RELATIONSHIPS consist of judgements which are disguised as "helpful hints", for lack of a better term. If I said "You know what, Crystal Singer--you jump into relationships too fast and now that it's backfiring on you, you're trying to discount the theories of others"...that would have been a disrespectful judgement on my part. I didn't do that, though. I simply gave MY OPINION and quite frankly, I can't imagine how I could have given that opinion in its purest form (meaning, STILL being in disagreement) without having "ruffled" her feathers.

Offense is taken, not given...wouldn't you agree?

Not for a moment.. I specifically said that I believe that simply sharing opinions is not only OK, it is actually good - that is what the forum is for.

Where I believe your words might have been considered disrespectful was when CrystalSinger in turn disagreed with your opinion (her prerogative, as you concur), but you replied by calling her "defensive" several times. Maybe it's just me (and CrystalSinger), but that term has a hint of namecalling to it.

Saying to someone who disagrees with you, "Why are you suddenly so defensive?" can be perceived as an attack, and is really a way to shift the discussion from the issues to something more personal. It's similar to two people discussing something, and one suddenly saying to the other "Don't shout at me!!", which tends to derail the discussion into whether or not the other person was truly shouting, instead of the original discussion.

JMO, we don't need to beat this to death.

AGG

Like I said, I don't mean to beat this to death, since we are way OT, but just a couple of thoughts:


And this is where you moved from exchanging opinions to something akin to namecalling. You disagreed with CrystalSinger, and so you called her "defensive". The minute you start evaluating a person rather than their actions, you are passing judgement. Can you see the difference between saying "I disagree with your position" and "you are stupid for having that position"?. Substitute "defensive" for "stupid", and you can see where the problem lies.


I am not on any quest, actually, as this discussion does not affect me. And I did not ignore her sarcastic comment. I actually agree with you that her comment could be interpreted as being sarcastic, although no doubt she would say that it was in response to what she perceived was lecturing from you. "He said she said" stuff.

I don't really want to continue this much further, but you did ask why she felt judged, and I tried to answer from my POV. If you want to take anything away from this discussion, as you said you did, then hopefully I helped in some way. If not, no problem.

AGG

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And this is where you moved from exchanging opinions to something akin to namecalling. You disagreed with CrystalSinger, and so you called her "defensive".

Re-read my post. I asked her WHY she was being defensive about what I said. I'm really curious about why we've suddenly equated a simple question with "namecalling"...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Had she been on the phone with Dr. Harley and he asked her why she was feeling defensive, do you believe she would have had the right to say he was degrading their conversation to the point of namecalling? I've had a psychologist ask ME the same thing--should I have been offended? I simply asked the question--I didn't see it as a judgement OR an offense.

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The minute you start evaluating a person rather than their actions, you are passing judgement. Can you see the difference between saying "I disagree with your position" and "you are stupid for having that position"?.

I disagreed with her position. Asking why she was defensive isn't equal to calling her stupid. It's UNBELIEVABLE that you could equate the two....

I think that CrystalSinger responded to me with a sarcastic comment because she perceived an attack that didn't exist. My comments were my opinion, based on the information that she freely shared with the board. When you share personal details, you have to expect that the members who read the board are going to comment on them. That's what I did.

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Substitute "defensive" for "stupid", and you can see where the problem lies.

I agree totally. This is exactly what both YOU and CrystalSinger did--you equated a perfectly legitimate QUESTION with an insult...The word "stupid" was never used. I choose to deal with the things I SAID--not words that were perceived.

When I see a CLEAR example of a person getting defensive, I will address it. Defensiveness isn't like stupidity---I have no right to say "you're stupid" because stupidity is a relative measurement of one's intellect that I am not qualified to make. Defensiveness exists and is easily identified. Not EVERYTHING is subjective!

Just for your information, please consider the definition of "DEFENSIVE":

Constantly protecting oneself from criticism, exposure of one's shortcomings, or other real or perceived threats to the ego.

Notice, there's no mention of this being an insult or derrogatory.....

I did. You didn't just ask, you stated: "There's no reason to feel defensive about this..." That is not a question, that is a judgement on your part of how she feels. Not only that, you proceeded to tell her that she shouldn't feel the way she does.. and that is not disrespectful?


Because you didn't ask, you called her "defensive".


I am sure you did not mean your statement (not question) to be offensive; but you asked for a clarification of why someone might have perceived it as such, didn't you? I tried to answer; whether you agree or not is up to you, of course. No need to get defensive about it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> (just teasing).


Who equated the two? I believe I stated that calling someone defensive can feel to the person as an insult. Again, feel free to disagree, I am not on a quest to have you accept my position.


This reminds me of the "Ouch, no,let me explain" article by Harley. You no doubt didn't mean to insult CrystalSinger, but she obviously felt insulted. It is now your choice to try to understand why she felt that way, or to dismiss her feelings. Again, little concern to me.


You have twisted what I said into something I didn't. I didn't say that you called her stupid, I said quite clearly that calling someone "defensive" can be perceived as an attack on one's persona rather than on their argument, just like calling someone "stupid" would be. Please reread my words if you didn't catch that the first time.


That is certainly your prerogative. Just realize that you chose to pass judgement on CrystalSinger when you decided to call her "defensive", so the fact that she got upset about it should not be too hard to understand.


Same goes for disrespectful judgements.


Not in that one... But I was thinking of a definition more along these lines:


Which would imply that a person who is "defensive" is somewhat irrational and incapacitated. So being called "defensive" is far from complimentary to that person, IMO.

AGG

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I believe I stated that calling someone defensive can feel to the person as an insult.

ANYTHING can FEEL like an insult if the person is sensitive enough!

I think I'm going to choose to stop beating the dead horse here simply because political correctness and oversensitivity makes me puke. (OH--wait..is that a disrespectful judgement? Am I implying that you make me vomit??)

Here's a disrespectful judgement for you:

I think anyone who believes that the use of the word 'defensive' is offensive or an insult shouldn't be married or in a relationship. I can't imagine attempting to have a logical conversation with an individual so h.e.l.l.-bent on finding fault in a person's words...

Continue on the way you're going...and good luck.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Aeri,

I have read enough of your posts on these boards to have seen you do this before - when you can't find a way to continue the discussion or to reply to the other person's points, you change the direction of the discussion and bring up new and unrelated points, as if to derail the process.

You are doing it again here:

- You initially asked why anyone could consider your words to be a disrespectful judgement; I answered that calling someone "defensive", and then telling them that they should not feel a certain way, can certainly be considered a disrespectful judgement.

- You then said that you never called her defensive, but only ASKED if she was; I showed you where you did in fact CALL her "defensive".

- You then said that there is nothing bad about being called "defensive"; I showed you a definition which certainly appeared to be condescending, if not insulting;

Rather than debating any of my points, you kept changing your position, which again is something I have seen you do before. In the end, it came down to you wanting to puke because you didn't like that anyone took offense to your words. Be my guest. But then why did you ask for an explanation of what caused CrystalSinger to be upset, if all you were going to do was say that anyone who gets upset with you is oversensitive and clearly shouldn't be in a relationship? Was that a rhetorical question then? Should I reply with something as witty as "anyone who is so insensitive makes me want to puke and clearly should not be in a relationship"?

Here is a rhetorical question for you:

Do you think your H will react positively if during a discussion with him, you will tell him that he shouldn't feel a certain way, or, better yet, that he shouldn't get all "defensive"?

Sounds like major deposits in the old Love Bank, eh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

AGG

[color:"blue"] Well as long as we are way way off topic here, I'll put in another $.02

Anne Katherine in her book on boundaries describes (as does a good guy) conversations boundaries. In her example, a comparison is between a healthy (tennis game) conversation, and a "billiard ball" conversation.[/color]



She also describes something called "hit and run" statements.



[color:"blue"]Food for thought...

V. [/color]

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I have read enough of your posts on these boards to have seen you do this before - when you can't find a way to continue the discussion or to reply to the other person's points, you change the direction of the discussion and bring up new and unrelated points, as if to derail the process.

That's quite the observation on your part, but it sounds to me like a DISRESPECTFUL JUDGEMENT. You said yourself that you weren't interested in 'beating the dead horse', so why were you so upset that I stopped beating ol' Trigger?

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You initially asked why anyone could consider your words to be a disrespectful judgement; I answered that calling someone "defensive", and then telling them that they should not feel a certain way, can certainly be considered a disrespectful judgement.

Here we go again....

I believe that there are words which are insulting and there are words that are NOT. I observed that CrystalSinger was DEFENSIVE...I'm not going to apologize for a perfectly legitimate observation.

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You then said that you never called her defensive, but only ASKED if she was; I showed you where you did in fact CALL her "defensive".

My first mention of the word "defensive" was when I asked her WHY she felt that way. After that point, I was commenting on the fact that I felt she was defensive.

Let's substitute the word "sarcastic" for defensive (since you actually AGREED that she was sarcastic). Would it have been offensive for me to have said "why are you being so sarcastic" and subsequently refered to her as "sarcastic"?

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You then said that there is nothing bad about being called "defensive"; I showed you a definition which certainly appeared to be condescending, if not insulting;

I agree, defensiveness is definitely not something to be proud of--but I call 'em as I see 'em....

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Rather than debating any of my points, you kept changing your position, which again is something I have seen you do before.

I debated your points more than I wanted to. If it wasn't that I was having an extremely boring day at work, I probably wouldn't have engaged you as long as I did. My position remains it was in the beginning--there is NOTHING offensive about calling someone "defensive"...as I said before--offense is TAKEN, not given.

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But then why did you ask for an explanation of what caused CrystalSinger to be upset, if all you were going to do was say that anyone who gets upset with you is oversensitive and clearly shouldn't be in a relationship?

I challenge you to find the post where I said that CrystalSinger shouldn't be in a relationship because she's oversensitive....

My original point was that people who have fears about relationships aren't healed. When you can enter into a relationship without chronic fear, you're ready to date again. Both yourself and Crystal Singer could have simply disagreed with me, but she decided to be sarcastic and you decided to be her personal saviour. You derailed the original conversation in order to be her "hero"...

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Should I reply with something as witty as "anyone who is so insensitive makes me want to puke and clearly should not be in a relationship"?

I suppose you could...but what would be the point? I would probably laugh at you and be on my way.

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Do you think your H will react positively if during a discussion with him, you will tell him that he shouldn't feel a certain way, or, better yet, that he shouldn't get all "defensive"?

I love questions like this!

I married my H because he's just like me--he doesn't get defensive. He realizes that being defensive is a character flaw that doesn't benefit anyone, especially in a relationship. My H essentially believes that if a person is strong in their belief, there's no need to feel attacked (therefore, needing to defend himself) when someone presents an opposing view. I hold the same belief...as a result, we never argue about petty things like this....

Funny that you'd mention my H--he read this thread. He told me I shouldn't waste my time debating with idiots .. (These are his words--I know this is a DJ) and that was why I chose to end the discussion where I did.

Would it maybe help if we all remember that a written forum is a VERY incomplete form of communication???

No tone of voice.
No body language.
No chance to respond in real time.
No opportunity to clarify in real time.

So since these items carry about 70% of the real meaning of any communication, it seems at best we're not going to be able to get things across too well here. Does this sound right to anyone?

Just trying to help. And keep us all MB friends... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
High Flight

Actually, I never derailed the conversation. I always stayed on topic. The topic you brought up - "why would anyone consider being called "defensive" a bad thing?". Remember? I have no idea where the "personal hero" comment is coming from.


But you just got done telling us that being called "defensive" shouldn't hurt anyone's feelings... So being told that you have a character flaw is not hurtful??


Nice one, aeri. When all else fails (which it did), always fall back on insults and name calling.

AGG

[color:"blue"]Doh!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

V.[/color]