Sunny,

At the risk of becoming your personal savior hero as well as CrystalSinger's <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />, I totally agree with the quote from Anne Katherine. I think it summarizes well what transpired in this debate. Thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

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Nice one, aeri. When all else fails (which it did), always fall back on insults and name calling.

OHHH, you got me! Yep...I fell back on name calling... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Re-read my post, GG--those were my HUSBAND'S words. You brought him into the conversation, not me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

aeri,

Did you notice how you are following perfectly the Person B?:


You have done quite the dance in this discussion.

The issue was simple - can calling someone "defensive" be hurtful to that person.

First you asked why it would be hurtful to be called defensive. Then you said that you didn't call her defensive, but only asked if she was. Then, when I showed that you did in fact call her "defensive", you said that you also "asked" if she was, as if that somehow negated the fact that you also called her "defensive".

Then you said that being "defensive" is not bad. But then you that said being "defensive" is a character flaw. So which one is it?

Then you said that people who get offended by you make you want to puke.

In between all this, you managed to work in some pointless insults, from "you make me vomit", "anyone who believes that the use of the word 'defensive' is offensive or an insult shouldn't be married", to "you decided to be her personal saviour" and "I shouldn't waste my time debating with idiots".

If you want to continue discussing the original issue, I'd be happy to. But if you stick to the idea than anyone disagreeing with you will make you puke, then I'll bow out, and you can deal with the mess.



I showed this thread to my cat. He told to me to never wrestle with a pig - you both get dirty, but the pig likes it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

AGG

Interesting topic and replies. I have one question that puts a different spin on the discussion and is for everyone and/or anyone to answer. (GoodGuy, I'm using your quote only because it's recent. Thanks.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


As someone suggested earlier: Should calling someone "defensive" be hurtful to that person?

FR

FR,

Thanks for getting us back on track <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

I still think the best response to this question is this .

Using aeri's definition of being "defensive" as having a character flaw, I can see why CrystalSinger might be hurt. And if someone is hurt, there is little sense in trying to convince them that they shouldn't be.

IMO,

AGG

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I showed this thread to my cat. He told to me to never wrestle with a pig - you both get dirty, but the pig likes it.

LOL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> That's hilarious! I actually appreciate your humour, GG.

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As someone suggested earlier: Should calling someone "defensive" be hurtful to that person?

I don't think it should be hurtful.

Until now, I had NEVER been told that it's offensive to say that someone is defensive and to be honest, I'm shocked. Who made all these rules?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wow, what a direction this thread went in!

You know, I noticed that aeri doesn't seem to originate many threads herself... only a few in the entire 3 years or so she's been here. Mostly she only responds to the posts of others. And mostly only on the Emotional Needs forum. Not that that is a bad thing... but I did notice that the only time she posted on any of the Infidelity boards she stated clearly that she's never had any experience with cheating. I mention this because she felt it was ok to decide how my recovery should work even though she has no experience in the situation of being divorced due to the infidelity of a husband. I think that there are very few people who can really understand what that is like if they haven't experienced it first hand, and based on what she had to say, I'm guessing aeri doesn't really understand it.

Personally, I don't think there is anything "abnormal" about fearing rejection - it is quite common, which is what makes it normal. If I were to be paralyzed by this fear - i.e., if I couldn't function normally in the real world - I'd say that would be abnormal. I don't fear rejection anywhere but in relationships - and that's very normal considering my history. I'm not dysfunctional - as I stated, the professionals in my life think I'm in very good emotional health. I'm simply not putting my head on the chopping block if I don't have to. Nothing wrong with that, I don't think.

But, I clearly stated, and aeri clearly (and repeatedly) ignored, that I didn't want this thread to be a psychoanalyzation of ME. But aeri went ahead and analyzed and judged me anyway, and then did it again when I responded to her (I should have just ignored her, but I let her get under my skin - my bad). That's simply disrespectful. If aeri actually cared about me and was making her analyzations and suggestions in that spirit, then, perhaps it wouldn't be disrespectful... but, I'm just not feelin' the love.

Thanks for the defense, AGG. Not necessary, but much appreciated, nonetheless.

CS

"Personally, I don't think there is anything "abnormal" about fearing rejection - it is quite common, which is what makes it normal. If I were to be paralyzed by this fear - i.e., if I couldn't function normally in the real world - I'd say that would be abnormal."

I couldn't agree with this statement more, CS! Nobody but nobody wants to be rejected. It hurts, no doubt about it, and when something hurts, fear of it better form or you'll sestroy yourself. Or what do people think the function of fear is? Sounds to me like you have it in perspective and have no intention of allowing it to become a paralyzing fear, so you can get up of the analyst's couch now! LOL

Fear of getting burned is very real, especially if he got burned by an ex spouse. After all if the person who takes a vow to be with you can break it, why can't a girl friend who has taken no vows at all.

The reality is we will all be rejected many times in the dating game. So learn to deal with it. It ain't going away. And the alternative is to never have a romantic relationship. that's not much of an alternative.

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... but I did notice that the only time she posted on any of the Infidelity boards she stated clearly that she's never had any experience with cheating. I mention this because she felt it was ok to decide how my recovery should work even though she has no experience in the situation of being divorced due to the infidelity of a husband.

Crystal--I'm glad you took the time to get to know my posts here at MB. You're correct, I don't start many threads, mostly because I was told at the very beginning that MB couldn't help the problem that I encountered in my first marriage.

Allow me to take a few minutes to explain why I ended up here at MB in the first place...Although I didn't experience any infidelity in my first marriage, my Husband did betray me because he decided to expose his homosexuality after he married me. It's true--I've never experienced someone having an affair on me, but I DID experience my Husband hitting on my Father, attempting to molest a child in my family and I endured many years of him having affairs with men. Although I only found out about these affairs after I separated, the hurt was very, very real.

Now, although I'm aware that not every man is gay---I noticed things that other women would have never spotted, simply because my "gaydar" was so sensitive. I scrutinized every man I spoke to and hated men for some time--I was completely turned off because I didn't want to get burned again (sound familiar?)... This is why I feel that I am qualified to comment on healing from past hurts---I've definitely been there.

After a couple of years of being on my own, doing much soul-searching and introspection, I realized that my ex-Husband was hurting, too. It must've been horrible living with me, knowing that he didn't want to be in a heterosexual relationship. Trust me, many times I blamed him for ruining 16 years of my life and almost denying me the opportunity to be a Mother...but after I came to my epiphany, I just forgave him...

Through all that, I learned that it would be UNFAIR to my new partner if I retained the hurt and pain that I felt as a result of the relationship I had with my ex-H. When I felt completely comfortable and I lost the feeling of being duped by my ex, I began a relationship with my now-Husband.

At this point in my life, I'm happy and I have the best Husband a woman could ask for but I can't help thinking of what would have happened in this relationship had I remained nervous and fearful of relationships in general. My Husband would have been exposed to a side of me that was living the H.E.L.L. of my former marriage and that's just not fair. Do you have a better understanding of why I said what I did in my original post? I feel that in order to bring 100% to the table, all the hurts and fears of your previous relationship have to be dealt with...one must HEAL.

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Personally, I don't think there is anything "abnormal" about fearing rejection - it is quite common, which is what makes it normal. If I were to be paralyzed by this fear - i.e., if I couldn't function normally in the real world - I'd say that would be abnormal. I don't fear rejection anywhere but in relationships - and that's very normal considering my history.

If anyone felt rejection, it was me.

My ex-Husband rejected me sexually, which isn't so difficult to imagine, considering the circumstances. As a 30-something woman who isn't exactly super-model material, I was terrified about being in a new relationship. I worked through that fear for a long time (seeing a psychologist helped) in order to get back to the way I was before I married my Husband. Sure--many people tried to remind me that it wasn't my fault and yadda yadda, but as a woman, it was very difficult for me to accept that my Husband just didn't want me because I was the wrong sex--I really thought I caused him to want other men....So, I understand feeling rejection, but a crippling fear of rejection can affect you very, very negatively and it's best to work on that....

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But, I clearly stated, and aeri clearly (and repeatedly) ignored, that I didn't want this thread to be a psychoanalyzation of ME.

Crystal--think about this: I don't even know you--I've never seen you on the EN board and I barely ever come to this one--why would I have wanted to psychoanalyze you so closely? I used YOU as an example because you used YOURSELF as an example. I couldn't have done that if you hadn't shared your story freely on the board. I think you've misunderstood me.....

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Thanks for the defense, AGG. Not necessary, but much appreciated, nonetheless.

Ahh, the defense....why is it okay for you to thank AGG for his defense, but if I say someone is DEFENSIVE, that's an affront?

I guess I'll never understand..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for your reply - I mean that sincerely. I do remember your story - in my previous incarnation here at MB I posted in a number of different places - I've taken on a new username here for a number of reasons, mostly to maintain a modicum of "privacy" in case people I've mentioned this place to in real life ever stop by, since my old username was my real first name. Actually I had posted over on EN to TiredDad with this persona, and got my butt kicked by Melody Lane when the discussion moved to GQII (which had kind of been my home turf until this forum came along).

What bothered me most about our previous exchange is what I saw as your assumption that I haven't healed. You've no idea (and I don't mean that in a mean way)! I was pretty much an emotional wreck even before my marriage fell apart - my ex and I didn't have any kind of sexual relationship for a good 2 years BEFORE D-Day - I rarely slept more than a few hours a night because he was "out with the boys" or watching tv at full volume in the next room - our time together was always limited (we had different work hours and different days off) and fraught with tension - I felt unaccepted, unwanted and unimportant - his responses to me when I brought up issues I felt we had to deal with was "whatever" with a shrug ... It's been seven years since the affair was exposed and my ex moved out, and it took about three and a half years for him to get around to actually divorcing me (something I wasn't going to do FOR him, since it was his choice and not mine). And it's now been three years plus since the divorce was finalized. In that time I've grown and I've healed and I'm far stronger than I ever was - I successfully challenged a hiring decision at my workplace and won the job that I'd always wanted (of course, at a rate of pay significantly less than what the men in my department doing similar jobs make - the NEXT challenge). And I don't fear rejection in relationships anymore now than I ever did before I was married - so I'm back to who I was then, too - minus the wild partying on Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> - better, in many ways, actually: wiser about my own emotions, about what I need from life. I'm truly not bringing any resentments, pain or anger from my previous relationship with me at all - my fear of rejection is not crippling, it's just, well, fear, and it's not from my previous relationship, it's just the way I always have been.

But that's not the only reason that I'm not moving quickly to get into a new relationship - I'm simply not in a big hurry to get into a serious relationship that's not founded on a much deeper friendship and understanding of one another than my marriage was. I'm already past "biological clock ticking" stage - the alarm has rung, the snooze has been pressed many times... and it would be unrealistic of me to expect that at 46 years old I'm going to start a family ... so I'm not in a big hurry. I'm having a great time getting to know this guy without the pressures of a serious relationship looming over me, and in the meantime, hopefully he's seeing what a wonderful person I am! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Again, if it doesn't work out that we eventually move on to something deeper, then I've got another great friend that I share a lot in common with.

Let me try to explain the "defense" vs "defensive" thing ...

Generally when the word "defensive" is used to describe someone, it's got negative connotations. It's generally referring to behavior that's out of control and over the top. I felt (perhaps wrongly) that your initial response to my post was a flippant dismissal of my entire point when you baldly stated that "NOPE" I was NOT healed. I didn't see my response as being out of control or over the top (maybe the one sarcastic remark) - I felt that I addressed what you had said completely and in the same manner in which (again I felt) you had addressed me (as others have mentioned, it's often difficult to properly interpret the written word in this kind of setting). Your next post to me "accused me" (my emphasis, because it is my interpretation) of being defensive and seemed to completely ignore the content of what I had said in favor of what you deemed to be my tone. Again, interpretation... I felt attacked by that "accusation" (whether justified or not, that's how I felt at the time). So, summing up, being called "defensive" is a negative experience.

When another person "defends" me, it's kind of validating, because then I am not the only one who felt that I needed defending. Because it was a third party who stepped in unasked, it's flattering and gratifying to some degree, like a kind stranger who jump starts your car in the grocery store parking lot at 11:30 at night when it won't start (i.e., the knight in shining armor kind of thing). It's a positive thing when someone provides defense, because it means someone cares enough, whether it be about me or the principle.

Being reminded about your story, I am in agreement that you certainly do have a great deal of knowledge about healing from a broken marriage ... but I think that may have missed one point in my "defensive" post. Using the measure that you used for yourself:
I AM back to the way I was before I married my ex... warts and all <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I hope that we can put this aside, even if we still wind up in disagreement about where I am in my healing process. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

CS

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I'm simply not in a big hurry to get into a serious relationship that's not founded on a much deeper friendship and understanding of one another than my marriage was. I'm already past "biological clock ticking" stage - the alarm has rung, the snooze has been pressed many times... and it would be unrealistic of me to expect that at 46 years old I'm going to start a family ... so I'm not in a big hurry. I'm having a great time getting to know this guy without the pressures of a serious relationship looming over me, and in the meantime, hopefully he's seeing what a wonderful person I am! Again, if it doesn't work out that we eventually move on to something deeper, then I've got another great friend that I share a lot in common with.

...and y'know what? There's nothing wrong with your approach! If you're aware that your relationship is going a certain way because you're not ready to proceed, then you're definitely being responsible toward yourself and the other person.

I'm glad you've shared more information--it has helped to me understand just where you are emotionally...

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What bothered me most about our previous exchange is what I saw as your assumption that I haven't healed.

I thought so, but I couldn't exactly bring that point across to AGG because he's not you...That's the problem with these message boards--it's pointless to discuss an issue with anyone except the person you have the issue with.

I only argued the point of the "defensiveness" with AGG because he's the one that challenged me on it. I better understand your position now that I've heard it from you--thanks for that.

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I felt (perhaps wrongly) that your initial response to my post was a flippant dismissal of my entire point when you baldly stated that "NOPE" I was NOT healed.

I really wasn't being flip in my original post--I think my biggest problem on these boards is that I use my "conversational" tone when I post.

In a face to face conversation, I tend to keep my tone light, even during a serious conversation. That's my way of being diplomatic--unfortunately, it doesn't work that way online. You'd think by now I would have learned not to post in my street "voice"....

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I do remember your story - in my previous incarnation here at MB I posted in a number of different places - I've taken on a new username here for a number of reasons, mostly to maintain a modicum of "privacy" in case people I've mentioned this place to in real life ever stop by, since my old username was my real first name.

Ahhh..ok...I think I knew who you were, but I won't say anything--don't want to blow your cover.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />