Friends

I read some posts in the past couple of days from you that really made me think and rather than threadjack I thought I'd open up a thread to discuss this. I would truly appreciate your insight on these questions I face.

My first question is regarding the Scriptural definition of adultery.


Suzet quoted a useful principle from Scripture to a poster on GQ2, pointing out that " to look upon another woman lustfully is to have commited adultery in your heart".

Using the 'thou shalt not commit adultery' commandment, and the scriptural interpretation of adultery that Suzet rightly cites here, Its fair to say that every person on the planet has had impure thoughts about a person other than their spouse so has broken this commandment.

In view of this, would you say that every spouse on earth could divorce the other spouse with Gods permission on grounds of adultery because they 'committed adultery in their heart' ? That spouses of serial PA cheaters have no more right so to do than any other spouse ?

That leads me to my second question - which is concerning the definition of transgressions as sin versus the secular/worldy gradation of transgressions.

God , through HIs mighty Word offers us a template of sinless behaviour that NO man has ever matched but Christ Himself. No other CAN ever match. We all sin, repeatedly. It is God's reminder of our true fallen natures and of how much we need His grace.

Its my guess that everyone on earth has broken at least one viable interpretation of every commandment multiple times in their lives. God makes it very clear in Scripture what constritutes a sin and what does not. But while He is telling us what behaviours, if unrepented and unforgiven will damn us, is he ALSO actually telling us that we are to regard all sins as being the same in scale ?

YES ANY sin will get us damned, and requires gracious forgiveness, but is it wrong to scale sins using earthly justice while recognising this fact ?

Did God not bless the world with Solomon, and David, and Moses, and other great lawgivers ? Why offer mortal lawgivers to us if all we need is a single measurement of what is sinful, and that the only response to this is forgiveness " seven times seventy times" ?

Did the new Covanent of Christ and Him sacrificed remove the need for ALL mortal laws with only " sin and forgiveness" as measure and response ?

Does God not expect a sinner who breaks a secular law to pay the legal penalty for same, but ALSO to repent to avoid damnation? If this is so then is God actually SANCTIONING not MORAL relativism but TRANSGRESSIONAL scalability amongst men to promote civil society ?

In summary God tells us that the TINIEST unrepented and unforgiven sin can damn us BUT how can he be saying "All sins are the same" when He gave us laws to govern our daily lives with ? In OT times He even suggested mortal punishments for lawbreakers. Why give us mortal laws through Solomon, Moses and David etc if all transgressions are exactly the same in scale and require only forgiveness not punishment ? And why not make all the punisments the same on earth if all transgressions , big or small are all, simply SIN and not relative ?
I hope I have made my point: that is does God consider gradation of sin within sinful acts' very NATURE as sins, or does he consider only the fact of an action's sinfulness and therefore all transgressions to be identical in scale ?

If the second is true does that make all legal sysmes pointless and ungodly ?

My final question is about forgiveness

I wonder what Scripture is actually telling us about forgiveness when it says we should forgive "seven times seventy times". Now I know that number is an example of the "near infinite" in old testament wording rather than an exact number, but I am STILL unsure how to interpret that.

Does it mean that we should forgive a recommission of the same sin seven times seventy times, when we are reminded of it or that we should reforgive the original transgression every time we are reminded of it so we do not backslide on our commitment to forgive and that both forgiver and forgiven can continue to receive the benfits of our forgiveness ?

Where I am coming from is my study that explained clearly that forgiveness from MAN is a process not a one time gesture. This is borne out in my own life. Whenever I see a 'movie' or a reminder of Squids infidelity I say in prayer " I forgive her for that". It helps me move past the hurt and reminds me that I have forgiven her. Note I am not forgiving a new transgression by Squid, I am reminding myself before God that I have forgiven her. I AM forgiving her again in essence, but as part of the original forgiveness intention, not a new one.

I wonder is THAT what God means by 'forgive seven times seventy times' ?
Or does He mean " if a person commits seven times seventy new sin against you, forgive every one"

Moving to the hypothetical, if Squid still contacted OM or even went to have sex wth him a hundred times after d-day. Does God expect me to forgive each NEW betryal up to near infinite? If so at what point does God permit divorce for infidelity if our only allowed response is to perpetually forgive?

I am struggling with the idea that there is only ONE measure of transgression and ONE Scriptural response to it.

I.E absentmindedly pocketing a pencil fom work is the same as multiple child murder, and our response to both sins should be to forgive seven times seventy times.

Or is God actually just telling us FOR OUR INFORMATION that:

"All transgressions are sins, so judge, jury and defendant are all sinners so bear that in mind when we scale their transgression using mortal laws
Forgiveness is the way God removes our hurt at being sinned against, JUST LIKE with Himself when we sin agains Him. He advises us to forgive anything that is thrown at us because nothing we can do in revenge as Mortals can give us comfort and strength in such situations as forgiveness can, and God will deal with our transgressors."

??

Forgive my inarticulacy, and I hope you can help me understand better.

Thanks in advance !

* edited title to throw open to ALL smart believers , StandingTogether too ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Bob Pure - My goodness!!! So many questions, so little time!

A lengthy post, replete with deep questions, will require a similar lengthy response, perhaps even a book...grin.

I hope you can bear with me, but it might take a little while to compose a cogent response to your inquiry.

God bless. (btw, I left you some things to ponder on another thread over in Recovery.)

The answer is yes and no. Yes, we are all guilty of adultery, as you outlined. No, you are not authorized by God to divorce due to that adultery. Why?

First off, when it talks about the idea of divorcing for marital unfaithfulness, the original text had a slightly different meaning than we draw out of it today. We look at it and think it means that a husband goes out and gets drunk...has a one night fling...and his wife is now justified to divorce him. That is not what the text says.

The text, in the original language, means continued, unrepentent adultery. What that means is that this example I used, if that guy came home repentent and willing to sincerely make amends for his transgression, then his wife is not to divorce him. God says in Malachi that He hates divorce. All divorces...for whatever reason. He hates it! It doesnt matter if that husband is unrepentent or not...He hates any and all divorces!!! I mean, Hosea waited 10 years for his unrepentent wife to stop running around.

Divorce is PERMITTED (not encouraged or even wanted by God) when several reasons are met. If two believers are married, then only when there is continued, and unrepentent marital unfaithfulness. For a believer and unbeliever, the believer can let the unbeliever go if they want to leave. But if they want to stay, then the believer is to stay in the marriage. For two unbelievers...well, really...it doesnt matter what they do because they are already doomed. So, one more sin isnt going to make them more doomed.

God is a god of redemption, restitution...2nd chances. As His followers, we are to mimic Him. And what does that look like? It looks like the Cross. It looks like dying to self, and doing what might not be convenient or pleasurable. God never promised happiness. But He does promise joy...and there is a HUGE difference between the two.

So, the short answer to your question is a quote from what Just Learning sent me in the middle of my trials..."If you are waiting for God to tell you to divorce your wife, you will be waiting a long time...because He never will."


Wow!! That question needs a whole book to answer it! But let me keep it short and we can discuss it as we go, as well as others chiming in. As you said, all sins are the same. Why? Why does God say that? It is because unless you are sinless, you cannot come near Him...you cannot even talk to Him. Ever here someone ask another person to pray for them...even though that other person is not a Christian? That is worthless prayer because God does not hear them. He does not hear the unbeliever. In order to be in God's presence, we must be sinless.

But, as you pointed out above, how do we get that way. All of us sin daily. So how do we get there? How can we come before God?

I had a pastor once tell me this story which illustrates how this all works. He had gone to Scotland, I believe, one year and had visited a shepherd. As they walked thru the flock, he noticed a sheep giving birth. As it did, a lamb came out stillborn. The pastor asked what he would do with that lamb. The shepherd said to just wait a minute. A few minutes later, a second sheep was giving birth. But this time, while giving birth, the mother died. Buit its lamb was alive. Quickly, the shepherd grabbed the live lamb and the dead one from the other mother. He took the dead one and cut its hide off. Taling the live one, he wrapped the dead lamb's hide around it and tied it off with string. He then took the live lamb and placed it next to the mother of the dead lamb.

Now normally, a mother will reject any lamb that is not hers. but in this case, the mother bent her head down and sniffed this lamb...and what ddo you think she smelled? Herself!! And she took that lamb and began feeding it.

It works that way with God. When we are saved, we can come before God because of who Christ is. If we came alone, we would be rejected (read: destroyed). But instead, we are cloaked in the blood and righteousness of Jesus. So when God leans over and sniffs...He smells Himself.

This explanation was meant to explain why sin is all the same. It is because there is no way to get near God as sinful creatures. It is impossible on our own!! The only way was to have someone cloak us in His sinless nature...thus God accepts us because He accepts His Son. Our sins are gone because of His Son. Thus, we become sinless.

When it comes to man and the world...well, we live in a sinful world. We live with heathens (unbelievers). There are Earthly laws made by man in order for believers and unbelievers to live together. This is the reality of our fallen planet.

But, as a believer, we are to look at sin the way Jesus looks at sin...the way God looks at it. Thus, if my neighbor steals from me...or he sleeps with my wife...both are worthy of death in God's eyes. So, when you look at that person engaging in unrepentent sin, anger should not be your feeling. It should be one of concern. Because while what they did to you is painful, you have to look at them and understand where they are headed...a place that has pain on a scale that our pain here cannot even imagine.

Now, a believer that sins...that is walking with jesus, will be repentent. That believer will realize their sin, ask for strength and guidance, and make amends. That is the meaning of repentence. It is continually standing up and choosing to follow Christ. And thus, by following Him, we become sinless.

It is why I have found on here some amazing Christian women. And they are FWWs. But in that...they came face-to-face with their Savior and made the choice to repent. And I have to remind them that according to the world, they are a FWW. But according to Jesus? "Your sins and iniquities I will remember no more." Dorry is one of these women. She is not a FWW in my eyes. Not if I want to follow Jesus. Instead, she is a sister in Christ. She is sinless, blameless. If God has no fault with her, who am I as a believer to hold that over her head?

Society will though. Society will hold murder over your head, even if you have repented. That is the world. That is the way that the world sees this. But we are not of this world.

The first one.


GREAT QUESTION!!! Forgiveness does not mean being a doormat. God does not allow that. Forgiveness is a recognition of what God does and what He will do in Squid's life, in your hypothetical. It is a releasing her to God so that she can be won, so that she can again be cloaked with Jesus.

Forgiveness is two parts. the first is letting go of that baggage for YOUR sake. The second is, by letting go of the baggage, you get out of the way and allow God to handle Squid.

Forgiveness does not mean that you just sit back and say "I forgive." You can still confront. You can still expose. You can still take her before the church. And if unrepentent, you are permitted to divorce her. That does not mean that you dotn forgive her. It means that her unrepentent state has reached such a place that you can no longer stay and fight for the marriage because she isnt coming around. But like I said, that isnt what God wants. He permits the divorce because He knows some of us cannot hang in there through this. And He doesnt want the innocent to be punished for the actions of the guilty.

So, forgiveness is the forgiving of a sin and letting it go. When you stated that you state that you had forgiven her every time her sin comes up, this is not actually forgiving her multiple times. It is forgiving her once, and remembering that forgiveness multiple times.

This is how salvation works. You dont get saved for new sins. You were already saved from them when you came to Jesus. He forgave all of your sins...even the ones you have yet to commit. That is once you come to Him and accept Him as Lord and Savior.

So what happens when we do sin? Well, when we repent, we are not asking for forgiveness again. We cant be forgiven again when we are already forgiven. It is like asking a person that is sitting in a chair to sit down. They cant sit down because they are already sitting.

No, we pray to Jesus when we sin and tell of our sorrow of the sin and ask for His strength in overcoming that sin. We seek repentence. In that repentence, we recognize that we were already forgiven. That we have the power of Jesus Christ in us, which means we didnt have to sin.


Let's see what others have to share.

In His arms.

WOW! That was deep and insightful.

Thak you,

R.

I know my name wasn't on the thread title, but I would like to add my comments if that's ok. Every time I see FH & Mortarman's names in threads, it's usually scripture related so I read the threads w/great interest. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You bring up so many good points. I’d like to concentrate on the first question in this post – the question of divorcing on the grounds of adultery. When Lost_boyz & I were separated, I really pondered these scriptural verses about adultery. The one that stuck out in my mind & still does is Matthew 19:7-9 NRSV. They said to him (the crowd in Judea), “Why then did Moses command us to give a certificate of dismissal & to divorce her?” He said to them, “It was b/c you were so hard-hearted that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity , and marries another commits adultery.” Now IMO, you really have to look at the word unchastity. I think that’s the key element here. Chastity is pureness. So the way I interpreted this particular verse was that the only thing a husband could divorce his wife for was for not being pure. An example of that would be Mary & Joseph. Joseph was ready to call off the wedding b/c he thought Mary had been defiled. It wasn’t until God’s angel told him that she was still pure & carrying God’s child that he was willing to marry her.

When Jesus was talking about adultery & divorce, He knew what the people had learned from the great law-giver Moses, but if you really look at what Jesus is saying deep down, dig a little deeper than just the words, you’ll see that a lot of what Moses had taught them, Jesus counteracted w/a “but” after it. This makes me think that although God had given Moses the authority to make the laws for them to live in a civil society, this really wasn’t what God had intended from the beginning. God had to give these people some kind of order for every day living in order for the Jewish community to stay intact & not let other people influence how they lived & therefore defile their community. If they would have let “outsiders” influence their ways of thinking, then the whole community would disappear after a while.

I’m interested in hearing what the others have to say on the subject. As far as the rest of your post, you’re right in that I don’t think you can discuss this subject w/o leading on to the facts of sins, commandments in general, things of that nature. It all goes hand in hand. I hope you don’t mind me piping in here, but I’m always fascinated in talks about the Bible & the way God wants us to live.

God bless, Bob.

Thanks MM. Lots of good stuff for me to study.

An initial question though: through salvation God forgives us once for eternity for every sin.( Hallelujah !!!) Does He expect US to do the same for mortals on earth ? God forgives ALL the individual sins, past present and future by saving the SINNER.

Do we as God fearing people try to emulate Him by forgiving a person whatever transgressions they have or may still commit against us rather than individual insults ?

Thanks again MM ! Pushy ain't I ? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

* ST, I welcome your insight, thank you. I have changed the title to open up more clearly to ALL wise souls, thanks for the prod !

On our own? No. Thru the strength of Jesus? Yes.


We cant forgive a sin we dont even know about. That is why we cannot forgive future sins. We have no idea what future sins will occur. how can we forgive something that we dont even know if it will happen?

God on the otherhand, has no such limitations. He already knew before the beginning of the Earth all of the sins that Mortarman would commit. When Jesus was on that Cross, and the full weight of all of our sins fell upon Him, it was horrible. Think of it. All of the sins for all time fell on Him in that moment (and we think our pain is bad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />). But while there on the Cross, I can see Jesus looking at those sins, seeing all of those sins...and then saying "It is finished." It is finished because He knew it was finished. He could see all of the sins, feel them...and see that His payment was enough...was sufficient. We cannot add to that. We cant put Him back up on that cross for future sins. He got every one of them.

Bob - I am gonna email my dad cause he is my wise old man <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I would like to see his reply on this and then I will post!

Hi Bob!!

Well, this will not be a popular answer, but I have discussed this with several Greek scholars. When Jesus said it was ok to divorce a woman for "unchastity," the Greek word used is pornea, which is a catch-all phrase for all sexual sins, including adultery, prostitution, etc. One other thing that it includes is sexual refusal in marriage. Of course, this is not generally discussed in churches. I would love to see the expressions on the faces of some of the staunchy old ladies in my church when they heard that if they are constantly refusing their husbands, they might as well be boffing the gardener. I don't believe that every single refusal is the same as adultery, but rejection more than twice in a row is a serious problem.

As to forgiveness, my opinion is that when God forgives, he completely forgets. In His eyes, our sin is as far from as as the east is from the west. However, as humans, we cannot do that. I think that what we need to do is to forgive a wrong every time we remember it.

As usual, just the opinion of a middle-aged, slightly overweight Texas prosecutor.

Thought I'd add a quote from her wise old man that Dorry posted before. While it was about the roles of husbands and wives, pay good attention on how he describes his walk with Jesus and how he and Jesus deal with him when he fails.


In His arms.

Ahhh I love my dad <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (daddy's little girl here hehe)

he probably wont email me back till tonight

Bob,

A couple things I spoke to my priest about:

I asked him about indecent thoughts and how we as humans can possibly go through life not having these thoughts and still expect to go to Heaven. His response is that although it says in the Bible about coveting thy neighbour's wife and adultery is a sin, there is a difference between passing, human thoughts, and acting upon those thoughts. If I were to look at a woman on the street who was obviously attractive and had an indecent passing thought, God understands that this is not "coveting". He created us and He knows when we covet and when we do not covet. We are not all damned for being human. This only holds true for passing, human thoughts. There is a point when they are no longer passing thought but instead are pondering thoughts. This, I think, is the start of coveting. And then anything more is obviously a sin.

During a homily, my priest explained what Jesus meant by forgiving "not seven, but seven times seventy times". Back then, the idea of forgiving someone seven times was just proposterous. People may have forgiven once but seven times was unheard of? So when Jesus said to forgive seven times seventy, this blew his disciples out of the water. If it was unheard of the forgive seven times then seven times seventy was just unthinkable and considered an infinite amount of times. So Jesus was saying to forgive all sins against you. It is even in our Father's prayer: Forgive us our trespasses (sins), as we forgive those who trespass (sin) against us. We pray to God to forgive ourselves just as we forgive those who sin against us. God is our example of forgiveness and He commands us to forgive others as He forgives us. Not because WE want to but because He commands us to.

Thank you for starting this thread. There were some answers in the responses that I needed to read for my sake. I hope others feel the same way to. I'm sure they do!

Bob, I only noticed your thread this morning because I wasn’t around further on these boards after I “bumped” my thread to KillerJoe yesterday. (I was out for Secretary’s Day and has got the rest of the day off). Therefore I will be quite busy in the office today, but I want to let you know I have read your post and will respond and read the other responses you’ve received as soon as I have time. I think I can provide some answers and my opinion to you on the issues of adultery and “scaling” of sins. If I don’t respond today, I will do so by tomorrow.

You’ve asked very deep and thought provoking questions Bob and I must say many of the things you’ve asked, are things I’ve wondered myself many times in the past and some of it are things I’m still wondering about… However, I’m sure the responses you’ve received from people like FH, MM etc. so far, will help to clarify some of these issues for me too. I’m still relatively young and therefore don’t view myself as a “wise” person yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I still have a lot to learn on my spiritual journey, but slowly but surely I’m trying to get there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Blessings
Suzet

What interesting questions Bob.

I have been talking with the Arch Bishop and our Priest about this for some time..

Catholic Dogma is very strict in this area and the teaching in this area is that sin may be committed not only by outward deeds but also by the inner activity of the mind apart from any external manifestation, is plain from the precept of the Decalogue: "Thou shalt not covet", and from Christ's rebuke of the scribes and pharisees whom he likens to "whited sepulchres... full of all filthiness" (Matt. 23:27). Council of Arles 314 AD & the Council of Council of Constantinople 682.
Hence the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, c. v) 1545 AD to 1563 AD, in declaring that all mortal sins must be confessed, makes special mention of those that are most secret and that violate only the last two precepts of the Decalogue, adding that they "sometimes more grievously wound the soul and are more dangerous than sins which are openly committed".

Three kinds of internal sin are usually distinguished:

* delectatio morosa, i.e. the pleasure taken in a sinful thought or imagination even without desiring it;

* gaudium, i.e. dwelling with complacency on sins already committed; and

* desiderium, i.e. the desire for what is sinful.

An efficacious desire, i.e. one that includes the deliberate intention to realize or gratify the desire, has the same malice, mortal or venial, as the action which it has in view.
An inefficacious desire is one that carries a condition, in such a way that the will is prepared to perform the action in case the condition were verified.
When the condition is such as to eliminate all sinfulness from the action, the desire involves no sin: e.g. I would gladly eat meat on Friday, if I had a dispensation; and in general this is the case whenever the action is forbidden by positive law only.
When the action is contrary to natural law and yet is permissible in given circumstances or in a particular state of life, the desire, if it include those circumstances or that state as conditions, is not in itself sinful: e.g. I would kill so-and-so if I had to do it in self-defence.

Usually, however, such desires are dangerous and therefore to be repressed. If, on the other hand, the condition does not remove the sinfulness of the action, the desire is also sinful.
This is clearly the case where the action is intrinsically and absolutely evil, e.g. blasphemy: one cannot without committing sin, have the desire -- I would blaspheme God if it were not wrong; the condition is an impossible one and therefore does not affect the desire itself.
The pleasure taken in a sinful thought (delectatio, gaudium) is, generally speaking, a sin of the same kind and gravity as the action which is thought of. Much, however, depends on the motive for which one thinks of sinful actions.
The pleasure, e.g. which one may experience in studying the nature of murder or any other crime, in getting clear ideas on the subject, tracing its causes, determining the guilt etc., is not a sin; on the contrary, it is often both necessary and useful. The case is different of course where the pleasure means gratification in the sinful object or action itself. And it is evidently a sin when one boasts of their evil deeds, the more so because of the scandal that is given.

Which all means, you think it, want it, decide to do it, but perhaps dont get a chance too, then it is a sin the same as actually doing the evil deed.

Very medieval but then thats my church, over 2000 years and they dont see any reason to change their minds on the issue. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Bob, I'm back as promised! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Bob, a few months ago I have read the following on the internet with regards to your question above. Please read it. It may help to give you a better perspective to form your own opinion (I will give my personal opinion after this):

[color:"blue"]Sometimes people will ask if "mental adultery" by their spouses provides them with sufficient grounds for a biblical divorce, so here is what Jesus had to say about the matter:

Matthew 5:27-28
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. (KJV)

Because God is logically consistent, His moral laws encompass the entirety of human experience in both the material and spiritual realms of existence. Therefore, we are guilty of adultery whether it is an accomplished physical act of infidelity or an adulterous fantasy indulged in for sexual pleasure.

Of course, the consequences resulting from physical acts of adultery generally are more severe and noticeable than immoral sexual fantasies, but nevertheless, both are wrong to one degree or another.

However, one very important point to keep in mind is that we are not guilty of sin merely because Satan tempts us with evil thoughts. The sin occurs if, and when, we give in to the temptation by dwelling on the evil thought and deriving pleasure from it.

The right thing to do in such moments is quickly to dismiss the evil thoughts when they occur and to have nothing to do with them. As Christians, we must not forget that Satan truly is our adversary, walking about as a lion seeking to devour its prey:

1 Peter 5:8
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: (KJV)

So, is mental adultery or immoral sexual fantasy sufficient biblical grounds for a divorce?

In my view, this is something which must be considered very carefully and judiciously. It is not always so easy to ascertain beyond a reasonable doubt that a mental transgression of this type really has occurred.

Besides, we all know that the physical act of adultery requires a greater willingness to sin than does an indulgence in adulterous sexual fantasy — and that has to count for something in the balance scales of justice.

Furthermore, we always have the option of reconciliation after we forgive the betrayal by releasing any feelings of hatred or anger or resentment or revenge. It is always an option because the Bible does not command or mandate divorce necessarily in cases of adultery.

On the other hand, it can be quite devastating to learn that a beloved spouse is harboring thoughts of infidelity and sexual fantasies about someone else. Especially if they are ongoing and habitual in nature.

In fact, marital betrayal and infidelity can be so heart-breaking and psychologically shattering that it is one of the reasons why God will permit a divorce in such instances even though, generally, He hates divorce.

Accordingly, each case has to be judged on its own individual merits and unique set of circumstances. People will have to decide for themselves the truth of the matter on a number of issues relevant to this question.

For instance, did your spouse really betray you sexually in their thoughts? Is your mate truly repentant for what they have done, and can they be deemed trustworthy in the future? How much moral character and integrity does your spouse exhibit? Can you put the hurt and pang behind you, and focus on healing your marriage?

I do not believe God necessarily wants us to look at divorce as a first response to marital problems like this. But, if the mental betrayal by your spouse is sufficiently severe or habitual, and they are not repentant, and your feelings of hurt and pang over this matter are substantial, then perhaps divorce is a viable biblical solution.[/color]

(Found the above from Biblical Divorce and Remarriage)

Bob, I personally don’t think mental adultery falls in the category which God allows for divorce, (excepts if the mental adulterer is unrepentant, unremorseful and persist in the sinful behavior and don’t show a willingness to change their behavior and seek help.)

The reason I think in general mental adultery don’t fall in the same category God allows for divorce, is because when you physically act on your sexual desires and have sexual intercourse with another person, you bond with them in a distinct way. You really do become one with them - that's why it's such a violation of the sanctity of marriage. Mental adultery is one-sided and you don’t physically become “one” with the other person, so I can’t see how mental adultery can be viewed on the same “sin scale” and “level of severe ness” than real physical betrayal in this regard…

Both mental and physical betrayal are very wrong and sinful, but with physical betrayal and intercourse, you actually take it one step further. Sexual betrayal and adultery is a process which originally start as a thought and temptation – then the person give in and start to dwell on the thought – then take it further and start to have sexual fantasies and get pleasure out of it – and the last stage is acting and actually have sex with a person outside marriage. When one actually gave in and having sexual intercourse outside marriage, you sin against your own body according to script.

The more severe and serious the sins we commit here on earth, the more serious and severe the consequences thereof… I’m a strong believer that we start to pay for our sins here on earth (regardless if we receive forgiveness or not) and we pay for it by the consequences we have to endure. And of course the consequences and damage of physical sexual intercourse (including guilt, shame etc.) is much more severe than for mental betrayal. For example, as you know, my involvement with FOM never progressed to a physical level or to full EA, but I did have impure thoughts and fantasies of him… These thoughts were very damaging to the relationship with my H, my relationship with my God, the way I felt towards myself, my self-esteem, my spiritual and emotional well-being etc, etc.… I paid a high price for all this and the damage was huge, BUT I know should I have physical contact or actually had sex with FOM, that would have made things much worse for everyone concerned…. I would have given myself to him in a way that had always been reserved for my husband.

So, I do consider my involvement with OM as adulterous in the sense that I’ve committed mental adultery… And it was disastrous for my marriage and myself in many ways. HOWEVER...I still do not believe it was as disastrous as if I had any form of physical involvement with the FOM. Sex would be the worst case scenario. When my husband and I make love, we can hold on to the fact that sex is something we have only had with each other. And this is HUGE for both me and my H.

Another example I want to use to illustrate this is something else: murder. It’s possible to feel so mad and outrageous if someone act a certain way, that we can actually think and feel like killing that person (And I’m sure you had such thoughts of OM many times – understandably so… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) But if this happen, you actually have committed “murder in your heart” according to Jesus standard, but does the thoughts of killing the person make you a real murderer? I don’t think so. It doesn’t minimize the fact that you HAVE committed a sin against God and another person with the evil thoughts, but you haven't committed the same 'level' and 'severity' of sin than a real murderer who have acutally physically killed somebody.

The above is another example why I think there is different “scales” of sins and I do think in God’s eyes not all sins are equal. I recall somewhere in the Bible God talks about the 7 deadly sins, so this is an example where God DO view certain sins bigger than others. I have also read in the Apocrypha Books (the books taken out of the Bible years ago after Jesus’s life here on earth) about the different specific punishments unrepentant sinners will receive for certain sins in h e l l - and certain sins will receive greater punishments than other. And out of this I’ve made the assumption that God DOES differentiate certain sins from others in ‘level’ , ‘scale’ and ‘severe ness’.

Bob, further it's important to understand that wrong & tempting thoughts are everywhere and everyone have it….all of us. We can’t escape it and it will forever be a part of us here on earth. But what define us is our willingness to not give in to those thoughts. Read the following paragraph I have taken out of ”The Purpose Driven Life”:

[color:"blue"]Temptation begins by capturing your attention. What gets your attention arouses your emotions. Then your emotions activate your behavior, and you act on what you felt.

Many Christians are frightened and demoralized by tempting thoughts, feeling guilty that they aren’t “beyond” temptation. They feel ashamed just for being tempted. This is a misunderstanding of maturity. You will never outgrow temptation.

In one sense you can consider temptation a compliment. Satan does not have to tempt those who are already doing his evil will; they are already his. Temptation is a sign that Satan hates you, not a sign of weakness or worldliness. It is also a normal part of being human and living in a fallen world. Don’t be surprised or shocked or discourage by it. Be realistic about the inevitability of temptation; you will never be able to avoid it completely. The Bible says, ”When you’re tempted,…” not if. Paul advises, ”Remember that the temptation that come into your life are no different from what others experience.”

Sometimes while you are praying, Satan will suggest a bizarre or evil thought just to distract you and shame you. Don’t be alarmed or ashamed by this, but realize that Satan fear your prayers and will try anything to stop them. Instead of condemning yourself with “How could I think such a though?” treat it as a distraction from Satan and immediately refocus on God.[/color]

Hope this had helped.

Blessings,
Suzet

My dad will be replying soon, he didn't have time last night to get into it.

He will give some direction when he has some time, but his answer so far was

Right now question 1 answer is definitely not. Also think that the person who is asking all this, needs to allow themselves to grow into a mature personal spiritual relationship with Christ so that questions are less on the level of "Could God create a stone so heavy that He could not move it."

After talking to him on the phone, he did realize he was very tired today lol and his reply was a little blunt . I told my dad that not all of us are as far on our spiritual path as he is, and if he might be able to help direct me - that would be great - so when he has had some sleep, he is going to write more! He said that he will look into it more, but that hopefully someone directs you to the right part in the bible to do some study on the topic, and pray to God while studying and those answers will come to you.

I think for the most part- most people on here have answered pretty awesome - i am enjoying the responses as the same questions you have Bob, I have had.

One thing Suzet said (and I agree with most of it!!!) was that God does recognize scales of sin. Yes He does. In this world, there are scales of sin. Some are more severe than others.

What I originally posted was that eternally, none of these sins are any different than another. If you and I only committed one sin our whole life...and I committed murder of a two year old child, and you stole a piece of candy from a store, in this world they are entirely different. And God recognizes that. But in the eternal, they are no different.

Why? Because if both of us only committed that one sin...both of us would be relegated to the same penalty...death. And unless someone else died for those sins, we must die for those sins. So the murder I committed lands me in the same place as the stolen piece of candy...He!!.

That is unless someone else takes the penalty for us. And God offers Jesus for that.

So, yes...there are scales of difference in sins on Earth. There are not in Heaven. Actually, there is only one sin not covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. And that is rejecting Jesus. By rejecting Him, you are saying that His payment for your sins wont be accepted. Thus YOU must pay for those sins. And that payment...no matter how good or bad you are...ends you up in a place you really do not want to go.

Look, the nice atheist grandmother who gave to the poor and worked at the homeless shelter...without Jesus...will end up at the same place as the murderous, child raping thug that did not accept Jesus.

Now some will ask "Is that fair?" Absolutely it is! Remember what I posted above? This is all about spending eternity with God. And we cannot come to Him or be near Him if we even have one blemish. Not even a small one. One sin would cause us to be destroyed in His presence. So, we need someone that is sinless to be our mediator, to clean us up...to pay for those sins. Only then can we go before God as a sinless person and be accepted by Him.

So, yes there are scales of sin on Earth and God does recognize that. But when we die, it does not matter what you did or didnt do. As the Scripture says, some will come before Jesus on their death and cry out "Lord, Lord." And Jesus will only respond "I never knew you." The four sadest words I have ever read.

In His arms.

MM,

This last post of yours was truly awesome. And I loved the reference to the shepherd in your other post. Perfect analogy being Jesus is our Shephard. Maybe that's why God referred to Him that way.

Bob,



Aw shucks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Thanks!



I feel so special now! Thanks Bob! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I like what MM & Suzet had to say about transgressions. THis is pretty much the same way I feel about it but they put it so much more eloquently! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> One thing God has definitely blessed you both with is the gift of speech! I don't think I can add very much to what they've already said, so I think I'll concentrate on forgiveness & how I believe it works.

When Jesus told us to forgive seventy times seven, I took that to mean each time they do something new to us. Now, this doesn't mean, as MM mentioned that we keep putting ourselves back into a situation where we know they will ultimately hurt us. Sometimes we need to step back & say, God, I cannot handle the hurt any longer. Please take over. And then we leave it in God's hands to do w/it what He sees fit. God knows we are human & do not have the ability to forgive as much as He does. THis is why we need Him so badly. B/C our efforts to strive to be like Christ are so overwhelming to us sometimes, that we need his strength to continue. It's kind of like what MM was saying in that we let go of the baggage that is bringing us down, getting us out of the way so that God can reach them.

This doesn't mean that we don't pray for strength to be able to forgive them, it just means that we let Him take it over in full force. Maybe He needs us out of the way, maybe we're an obstacle in our own situation that could be blocking God from doing what He needs to do in order for us to be ABLE to forgive that person.

I hope what I said made sense, cause reading it right now I got a little confused. Doesn't take much, let me tell ya. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> LOL

Good points, Standing.

Hi, Bob.

God considered that Israel was adulterous. In the same way, all of us have been unfaithful toward the Lord.

All of us have fallen short. It is human nature. It is the state in which humans find themselves by default - fallen.

That is also why I cringe whenever someone proclaims they can never be unfaithful. Our very nature ensures that any of us are capable of anything, at anytime, regardless of our level of sanctimony.

A person (wayward or betrayed) has to deal with whatever has been placed on their plate to deal with. The goal is simply to deal with stopping the behavior (sin) and come to a place of mutual understanding (forgiveness).

God bless,
Gimble