Here I am, almost 5 in the morning and I've been asleep on and off all night. My H came home last night AGAIN, for the millioneth time, drinking, everything starts o.k then he changes. I have to beg him to please wait until the kids are in bed and then he can get upset with me.....just wait so they don't hera it. How psycho is this!!!!!!!! I had asked him earlier in the day to change the filter on the air conditioner. So, last night when he comes home I ask if it was really dirty because I was curious because we have a new air conditioner....... he freaks out. Obvious he didn't do it like most stuff he doesnt' do without a fight, and so now it's 8pm and he has been driving around the country drinking for the last 2 hours "to relax", and would really prefer to sit and drink........ He just freaks. Slams the door in front of the kids...calls me his favorite word. Then because he has been drinking he keeps it going for hours, why I am bothering him with this now....what is MY real problem, what has happened during the day to ME for me What has happened to ME during the day for me to hound him. It is just so unreal. So, for the first time in my life I used this reverse psychology on him Any other time I would stand up for myself but it only leads to literally hours of fighting until I break, usually after midnight, and then when I cry and cry he stops . He will banter. I call it emotional bantering. So last night I take this approach, just to avoid the ongoing ABUSE. I tell him I am so sorry the I should be more patient and that I had no right to ask him about the filter, I should have known to let him rest, I am sorry and will try harder next time. He saw through it at first and said he knows what games I'M playing, but finally I actually got him to calm down and it worked. I need to know from someone, do you stay for the kids or is that more harmful??? I can't go through this anymore.

First off ((((Jenny))), I'm glad you come here there are some wonderful people here who will come along with some good advice. After I reply to you I'm going to send an e-mail to one of my best buds, CJ. Now she's short but don't let that fool you. She has a ton of experience in a relationship that sounds a lot like this one.....

I skimmed your other posts and either I missed it or this is the 1st time you mentioned the alcohol thing with much emphasis. From your brief description it sounds as if your husband is an alcoholic. This would also easily explain the Dr. Jeckle and Mr. Hyde thing, very common amoung alcoholics. Another thing to take into consideration is that alcoholism is an emotional disease where by it's victims can't process emotions properly. Therefore, if forced to feel, they lash out and seek to control the emotion. While blowing up to the point of having you in tears doesn't make sense to you, to him it keeps him from having to deal with his own emotions. Look online and in your area for an AlAnon support group fast...

In the mean time, please tell us a bit about his drinking history and current drinking habits?


That is quite insane. There is a great saying in AlAnon, the only person sicker than an alcoholic is the people living with them. Think about it. You statement is you accepting the unacceptable and trying to control it in a way that it won't have as much of an impact on the kids. That's insane. Insanity breeds more insanity.


Again, look at his focus, it's on you. Why? Because you've issued a challenge to him to feel. Rather than accept that challenge he'll deflect it onto you or the kids or anyone else. That and to be honest, whenever he looks at himself he is probably sickened by what he sees, all the more reason for his focus to be elsewhere.


Not only no but he!! no. That is not to say that there isn't any hope. But with the situation as it is now, it appears the kids are being harmed and I would recommend some therapy for you and them. I would also recommend looking into a couple of things.

First off, determine if your husband is indeed an alcoholic. This is important because 99.7% of these principles do not work on alcoholic and in fact will only enable them further in their disease.

Secondly, if he is an alcoholic what are the options? Look at the options without talking to your hubby. Are their treatment centers near by?

Thirdly, speak with people experienced with addiction and let's explore courses of action. Whether it be leaving, a confrontation, or an intervention.

Lastly, but should be done first, have your emergency plan ready in case you are ever in any danger. Know where you can go, whether it be a woman's shelter or a relatives house. Have a bag packed in the closet ready to grab the kids and run. And if there is any physical abuse what-so-ever, call the cops and get out of there... period...

Underneath all of this crap your husband may be a great guy in the grips of an illness. You have to stay safe and keep the kids safe. If it's determined that he is an alcoholic and he's willing to seek help, would you be willing to stay with him?

I am sure he is an alcoholic. Drinks when he's happey, stressed, sad, everyday. Many times it can be o.k, but more than not, I can tell by the look on his face when he walks in the door what the night has will be like. We live in a small community. My H has an incredible job, works maybe 2-3 days a week, makes 80,000 a year. We bring in so much money, me as a nurse, and this ALL goes for golf and beer and cigarettes and on a whim, he buys a Jeep, already has an old redone truck....money pissed away....lots of it. I hold down the fort, provide a very happy homelife for the kids and I, and literally when he gets home, happiness is gone. The night can be ****** and I am left over with fatigue the next day. So tired. And do you know what....it's always the next morning, "sorry about last night". He does not even remember I'm sure. I havev to admit, our lives would not change that much because I do everything around here anyway, he plays no part in our weekends, he is gone golfing every weekend, and if my parents , who live in town, have any type of get together, my husband is never in attendence because "he just does not have that much in common with them". I come from a good stable family. He is just so ungodly selfish. During the week, he may be home at supper time maybe 2 nights a week. And then he shovels food in his mouth while the whole time staring at my 8 yr old daughter to make sure she is eating the right way, and always eager to jump her [censored] is she chews a bite with her mouth open. What I have done for 6 years is pretend that all is well. I sometimes talk highly of him thinking that majically, he will become "nice" He makes everyone nervous. I said 15 fights ago that that was the last fight. Last week when I first posted I said "this is the last time". So, here I am, 4 days later. Last night made me realize how unbelievably sick he is. He is damaged and ill. I have begged for marriage counseling, together, him counseling by himself....nothing. His father still treats his mother this way, but I think my husband is worse, and that is scary. It would not be a shock to anyone if (I threw in the towel. Last night when I was using the reverse psychology thing and taking all the blame for upsetting him, telling him I shouldn't have asked him about the filter(isn't that crazy), at first he didn't buy it and said I was playing games and what was I up to??? I was trying so hard to defuse him, and while it was going on, I was shaking like I have never shaken before. My back was to him but I could see him in the reflection, and I was so afraid he was going to knock me in the head. I have never had fear like that before. Someone in one of my replies said that we on this board obviously don't know what clear marriage expectations are, or I guess we wouldn't be here. My expectations were clear and simple.....just be nice to each other, faithful, all the good things that we say in our vows. My biggest problem, he came along and SWEPT ME OFF MY FEET. Like the classis abuser. And, I fell for it and put my daughter and myself in this mess. Then go on to have another child. We have absolutely wonderful kids. Smart, loving, and you know what......I will take the credit for that because I work VERY hard at keeping a happy home. So hard in fact that I ask my husband to go into his rages AFTER the kids are in bed so I can protect them. MESSED UP!. I married for the wrong reasons and I saw some signs before. What a fool and how irresponsilbe on my part. Anyway, I thank you so much for responding to my post. At this point I am just hanging on and in need of support from anywhere. I am thinking I may talk to his brother who he is close with and let him know that my H is going to need support and probably a place to live, as he lives on his own now after HIS divorce. I feel like I need to let someone in his family know what has went on, I cannot talk to his mother about it because, well, they have told us to get counseling, don't share our problems with them as they have their own. Fine. What do you think about that......talking to his brother. Then I am going to request a trial separation, he can see the kids whenever for now......I just cannot go on this way. Thank you so much again for responding. Jenny

Jenny,

I have another site I would like you to take a look at, if you haven't seen it before. I tend to prefer not to put it on here, in case spouses of those I've referred are also on this board (and I know a few are.) So, e-mail me at my "throw-away" e-mail address: kaycee1616@hotmail.com
and I will send you the URL.

Try to e-mail me there soon - I don't check that e-mail very often, but I will be checking it now for your e-mail!

Jenny, Your husband is exhibiting one of the cardinal signs of alcoholism: personality changes and abusive behavior after drinking. He needs serious psychiatric help and he needs it fast. Stay or not stay depends on how much you want your marriage. His behavior is very damaging to your children and MUST NOT be tolerated any longer. You are going to have to have a serious "come to Jesus" talk with your husband, but you must only do this when he is sober. Let him know in no uncertain terms that his days of drunken abusive behavior are over and that you are not going to tolerate it ever again. If he comes home drunk and abusive, you may have to call the police. If they determine that he is too drunk or unstable to be around you or the children, they will remove him from the home.

Never again argue with your husband while he is drunk. It's pointless and will only lead to a blow-up. When he come home drunk, do not engage with him about anything. His drunkeness will instantly trigger no contact. If he wants to rant, he will be ranting to himself, since you will have no response whatsoever.

If he has family in the area, perhaps you can arrange for a family confrontation and intervention. I recommend that this be done only after consulting with a family therapist, since it has to be done right.

You have to make a decision and you must stick to it. Time to harden your spine, dear. You have to get tough about this right now. Let him know that you are finished with this toxic behavior. Tell him he must get help and give up drinking, and that this is non-negotiable. If he refuses or agrees, but doesn't actually do it, you will divorce him. So make up your ming right now. This cannot be an empty threat. If he believe you are not serious and your threat is empty, if won't work. If if understands that you are resolute and will follow through, it may serve as a wake up call to him.

””I am sure he is an alcoholic.”””

OK, well that answers that.

“””My H has an incredible job, works maybe 2-3 days a week, makes 80,000 a year.”””

That’s not necessarily a good thing.

“””it's always the next morning, "sorry about last night". He does not even remember I'm sure.”””

Just as a side note, he truly may not remember. A lot of alcoholics reach a place of “black out” and this is when they are at their worse. They can literally have no recollection of large amounts of time.

“””He is just so ungodly selfish.”””

Quite normal.

“””He is damaged and ill.”””

Yes he is, it sounds as if he has the disease of alcoholism.

“””I have begged for marriage counseling, together, him counseling by himself....nothing.”””

Again, he is not capable of working on the marriage, the relationship with you or the kids while he is in addiction.

“””We have absolutely wonderful kids. Smart, loving, and you know what......I will take the credit for that”””

This is where things get a little sticky. I do hope that no matter what you decide that you get them into some type of therapy soon. While I don’t doubt you’ve done a great job, I also don’t doubt that they have been exposed to a lot of unhealthy behaviors and are conflicted as to what a “normal” relationship looks like. Thus, they continue they cycle.

“””I am thinking I may talk to his brother who he is close with and let him know that my H is going to need support and probably a place to live, as he lives on his own now after HIS divorce.”””

First off, can you trust his brother? Second do not talk to him until you have a safe plan in place. By this I mean the bags packed, the pepper spray in your pocket, and ready. If he leaks what you say to your hubby, then it could lead to a bad situation.

“””What do you think about that......talking to his brother.”””

Again, I think that his brother could be a great aid, but I’d work things through first. Heck, if his brother is on your side there are definitely options. Have his brother there and an appointment made at a treatment center when your hubby comes home. Give him the option of going to treatment or getting out. Again it requires some planning. I would also recommend seeking some legal advice.

“””Then I am going to request a trial separation, he can see the kids whenever for now.”””

Again, I would recommend seeking legal advise and have your plan well in place. If you husband is an alcoholic he needs to not be enabled in any way. A separation where he can come and go as he pleases with not consequences does not accomplish that or really help you.

I ask again, if he sought help and got a grip on his alcoholism, would you want to remain married to him?

I mean if you’re bound and determined to leave him, then let’s plan for that, again taking your safety into account. If you would like him to get help then let’s plan for that with a strict plan in place if he chooses not too…

(((Jenny)))

One more thing, let me tell you why I said his job wasn’t necessarily a good thing. Addicts have to hit bottoms before they get help on their own, which truly is one of the only ways they can have recovery. For a lot of them, this bottom stems from no money and the results of that life style that can lead to jail.

That you husband has a good job that is not in danger and has money for his drug of choice takes away that option as a bottom for now. I say for now, because eventually he will either hit that bottom through another means or he will jeopardize his work or he’ll start getting in trouble with the law or quite frankly he’ll kill himself whether it be because of the booze or the side effects.

So then you have to look rationally at what another bottom could be. Family leaving, yeah that could be a bottom that would let him feel the full affect of his choices if done proper and legally. Your earlier suggestion of having a separation with him having unlimited access to the kids truly won’t help you that much and definitely won’t help him at all. A legal separation where he has to write a check every month and doesn’t get to abuse you and doesn’t get to see the children except under circumstances set out by the courts, that could constitute a bottom. And in all seriousness, you don’t want the kids alone with him because of his drinking. Not only could he take out on them what he could no longer take out on you, but he could also get behind the wheel with them and kill them.

I have seen cases where family interventions have worked, so that is definitely an option. Again, I think before anything you need to decide first what you want and second get legal advice. An attorney may advise you to tape things in the house so that a court can see what he’s like and therefore won’t let the kids be alone with him.

I do not want him in the home anymore. I am so angry, I am afraid, I have to admit that emotional abuse and the bantering is far more painful than being hit in the face. Let me tell you, my H is 6'4 and 230 lbs. My nose didn't break but it still hurts to this day, and it's been 5 years since that. The physical abuse happened bad 2 times, like I said 5 years ago. Again, emotional abuse is more painful. It's more confusing. Do I want to stay and work it out? Answer is no. I can't stand him, to look at him, the "other" him I love. But "this" him is so ugly and mean. It goes against everything I work for in life. I am such a positive person, happy free spirited, teach my children right from wrong, just the whole deal. And it's like there is this evil that comes in my home at night and annilates(sp) the safe mood I have created. Even the house seems different, not as welcoming or pretty or comforting. My bed even feels different. Anyway, I cannot thank you all enough for responding to my posts. I have to say you are a life line for me today. This is a very difficult day for me and my life is going to drastically change over the next few days. Please don't stop being here if I need advice. Thank you.

What to do - first, breathe. You are seeking help here on MB. It's a start.
I agree with LH that MB principles don't work in addiction cases.
Now, what to do next. You can only help yourself, and change yourself. You can't change him.
Alanon is a good start for you. And go to the group for the children, because they are affected by this - even as you think you are shielding them.
I enabled for a very long time and didn't realize it. You are enabling his behavior.
Do you feel like a single parent with a grown up son who only comes home when he wants? I know I did.
Have you read any of the codependency books out there? Melodie Beattie wrote "Codependency" and "Codependency no more". These are great references.
I also suggest you read "The Verbally Abusive relationship" by Patricia Evans. You will find your life described in these books.

Unless you do something, your children will grow up thinking this is normal behavior and their life choices will be formed by what they saw in their family of origin (FOO). Do you want to raise enabling children? Or do you want to raise emotionally healthy, happy children?

There are many great resources. You may need to find a counselor for yourself to help you work through the issues.

It's good someone mentioned safety here. Do you have an escape plan? Money saved, a place to go and a bag packed just in case? Some books recommend this. And the police can be a great resource if you need to call them.

Many towns also have Women's Crisis centers which offer free counseling for addiction as well as emotional or physical abuse.
Good luck.

Jenny, whatever you do, do so with a plan. A plan that has safety nets firmly in place. Plan Plan Plan and then execute.... Plan with the worst case scenario in mind and that is that he's going to go ballistic....

Listen to this one. My daughter came home from school and we were in the kitchen making a snack and I ask her if H makes her nervous. She said, "well, sometimes. Mom, I just act like a perfect angel all the time and then he won't be mad". She shouldn't have to act perfect. She is doing what I do and walking on eggshells when he's around. Oh God. She is enabling too and making sure she is perfect then he won't get mad. Is this all part of the insanity? Also she is only 8.

Ah yes, you are now in that realization stage. Where every time you turn around, you see the abuse even clearer. Every time you think that's it, now I see it all, something else hits you.

Stop, take a breath, and try to calm down a little. I think you're probably at the beginning of a pretty long road here, but you can get help.

Have you contacted a local domestic abuse shelter? Even if there hasn't been recent physical abuse (or physical abuse at all, for that matter) they should be able to help. The one area where you may have problems is if you need to leave the house. The shelters often don't have room. Do you have family where you can go if your husband won't leave?

You need to calm down and make a plan. And be careful - he may become physical if he finds out you are planning something.

The walking on eggshells doesn't stop unless the person changes their behavior. My X left almost 4 years ago and my DD8 still walks on eggshells and puts on the act at his house. If I'm the perfect child, then daddy will love me.
Many "recovered" alcoholics become "dry drunks" they have the same angry behaviors but don't drink.

An earlier comment mentioned lack of emotions. A counselor said that an addict is stuck at the emotional age at which the addiction began. For example, drinking at age 17, the person would have the emotional capacity of a teenager. This may explain some behavior. And while the people around matured and grew, they remain stuck.

Get help for you and your kids. Read the books recommended, and be ready to shed some tears.

jenny73,

I am the short-one that LostHusband warned you about--only don't let my short stature fool you because I've withstood abuse just like you and I'm stronger than you might think! The reason I'm writing to you is to try to reach out to you in a couple of ways and see if I can help you make sense of all this.

The first thing I would say to you is that what you are thinking (and for that matter feeling) is not crazy--it is in fact quite normal and reasonable. At times it seems as if you're CRAZY because how can you possibly "love" someone who treats you so harmfully, right? And things that you KNOW happened...he says they didn't happen, right? Or that you are making it up to start a fight...or that he didn't mean it THAT way, you're just too sensitive. On and on, it seems as if you can't tell if you're thinking clearly or if you're so nuts that all of your perceptions are just WRONG!

Let me assure you, you are NOT crazy. Let me say that again--what you are thinking and feeling is NOT crazy. In fact, it may be the most sane thing you've done and thought and felt in a while. Soooo...when you feel like you must be the only person who feels this way, or when you think that you just must be NUTZ, or when it seems like what you remember and what is told to you don't match, I want to encourage you to trust yourself. TRUST your inner instinct, because it's telling you that something is wrong, and jenny73, something IS wrong.

The very next thing I would like to encourage you to do is to think about a Safety Plan. Now here's what that is. You are in a situation where you and/or your kids could be hurt at any minute. You could be physically hurt, and you've said he did that before but hasn't been doing that lately...so that's one small positive. BUT, when a person is drunk and their inhibitions are down, the chance that they might physically harm you can come up AT ANY TIME. And that's just the "physical" stuff, sweetie. You have mentioned and said with your own words that he is verbally, emotionally and mentally abusing you. Verbal abuse is when a person uses words to cut down, demean, and hurt another person (like calling names or saying mean, vicious things) on a regular basis or like a pattern. Emotional abuse is when one person hurts the emotions of another person intentionally and on a regular basis (like telling you that you're stupid, ugly, useless, worthless, etc.). Mental abuse is when one person messes with another person's mind, or does cruel things that trigger fears--that kind of thing--intentionally and on a regular basis. If you notice, I put in there that it's intentional because as imperfect human beings, we can all occasionally say something insensitive but we have no intention of being harmful--we're just dense; and I put in there that it's on a regular basis because sometimes a person will not be the best that they can be or make a bad choice that one day, but it's not their true personality...they're just having a bad day. So Abuse is INTENTIONAL and A PATTERN.

The Safety Plan is basically what LostHusband told you about. It's taking some time when it is relatively calm to think...to make a plan about what you might do and where you might go if you had to leave urgently. For example, in a Safety Plan, you pack one outfit for you and one for each kid and keep them in the trunk of your car for "just in case." You keep a little money somewhere where you can get at it quick--and I don't mean that you stash thousands of dollars somewhere, but maybe a hundred that you may have to grab in the middle of the night for a motel room or groceries. You keep a copy of all your keys somewhere safe--so that if he snatches your keys in anger in an effort to keep you there, you can run to your safe set of keys and still "get to safety." You make photocopies now...when it's kinda calm...of stuff like birth certificates and other "important papers" and keep them in that duffel bag with the clothes. You let one or maybe two good friends you can trust know what's going on and that you might need to run or flee for safety.

Are you following? Start to think of ways you can protect yourself in your own home, like: are there rooms in your house that are safer than others? In my house, I had a living room, and it had a front door, a side door, and two windows, and I knew that in a REAL pinch I had FOUR EXITS if I could get the fight to that room; in my family room it had a side door and a back door, so I had TWO EXITS. I know, it's YUCKY to have to think like that, but some day your life could depend on it!!! Are there rooms in your house that are more dangerous than others? In my house, the kitchen was ENORMOUSLY dangerous because there were knives in there...frying pans...all kinds of stuff he could hit me with or really hurt me with! Sooooo...if a fight ever started in the kitchen, I kept taking a step back...a step back...a step back until we were out of that room--and I'd head toward one of the safer rooms (my living room or family room).

So, think on these things. Here are some links to some sites that actually have a Safety Plan Checklist:

http://www.domesticviolence.org/plan.html
http://www.courts.state.co.us/chs/court/...ticviolence.htm
http://www.peoples-law.org/domviol/safety/e%20DV%20Safety%20Plan.htm

The last one is EXCELLENT and has sort of a "fill in the blank" method that makes it easy to think clearly.

Finally, if you would like, you can always email me at my personal email: [email]faithfulwifecj@yahoo.com.[/email] I will gradually give you some more, but for now, doing a Safety Plan would be an EXCELLENT step toward protecting yourself and your kids.

(((((jenny73)))))



FNCJ

My keys have been snatched a million times. On Thur night, I called his brother and told him the whole scoop. Told thim the abuse and that the marriage is over. I did not confront hy H that night even though I have emotionally divorced him, because I had to work very early on Fri am and taking care of 9-10 patients on a busy med/surg floor with no sleep is very dangerous. Believe me, I've done it many times after being up very late FIGHTING. So, I wrote a letter to my husband and hid it in a drawer and when the kids were gone during the day safe at school and baby sitter, and I was at work, I was going to call him and direct him to the letter where it said we are separating and he needs serious help,my priority right now is to provide these chilren with a happy home blah blah blah.......well. Friday came and went. I couldn't do it. I called his brother back, told him I was going to try to get my H into serious counseling, I think he needs a shrink though instead of a family counselor, and he was relieved to hear it. Whatever. I am SO PISSED at myself for not following though. I am going to call a family friend of mine who is a counselor and see if they could recomennd a psychiatrist. As a nurse, I do believe he is bipolar and an alcoholic and, well, messed up. I have made such a horrible choice marrying him that I am actually ashamed of myself. I love my children and wouldn't trade them but what the ****** was I thinking?? You know what though, in defense of my stupidity he was NOT this way when we were dating. Literally, on the ride home from our honeymoon is when he got quiet, and then the abuse started. Of course he wasn't stupid enought to show his true self. Then he couldn't have me. I did see signs, there are ALWAYS signs and they were there. I am going to take it upon myself to make the appt, and let him know this is the last resort. And, he will laugh in my face because there have been many last resorts. But I do know this, he cannot survive long with a woman who does not reach out to him and looks at him with disgust. Either he will get the help or I leave. If I don't have the guts to leave he would. And maybe I don;t know what I'm talking about. Anyway, it's so hard to try to raise a family and attend all the game functions and school stuff and work part-time and take care of a home and cook and clean and laundry and LIVE all the while this crap is going on. It's just so unfair. Thanks for listening and for your advice. I feel like I should be forking out the dough for all this therapy. Gotta love the internet. Jenny