It seems to be the general consensus and popular belief here and in other forums I've visited that men & women can't be "just friends" or "best friends". Do you believe this? If so, why?

I believe there is a lot of gray in that phrase. The movie "When Harry Met Sally" gave that point in the beginning by Harry saying that men are only your friend because they want to sleep with you. I think that at some point there are men who would qualify for that saying.

At the same time, as I've grown older, I've discovered that I can be friends with women and not want to manipulate them for sex (just like Harry).

As for WS... don't think it's a good idea. Most people would have to say that's a no-no because the marriage is too rocky to have that kind of pressure on the BS and the WS has already proven that they can stray. Better to let things settle down first then play with that fire.

Well, I PERSONALLY do NOT suscribe to this belief....but I am sure I am in the very lone minority here. I think the issue obviously comes into play when that person or persons of the opposite sex start meeting needs that your WIFE/HUSBAND should be meeting....I have had great friends who have been women (all along college, medical school, residency, fellowship, and now practice)and NOT a single time did ANY of those relationships become "inappropiate", or were they "questionable" or did they kick off "feelings". You know why.............BECAUSE I DID NOT ALLOW THEM TO !!!Despite what people may say...........I still think IN THE END..."fog or no fog", "addiction or no addiction", "alien or no alien" "emotional needs or no emotional needs"....PEOPLE HAVE CHOICE and FREE WILL. It is that simple for me.

The Harley's say that NOONE is immune to an affair, and that it can happen to "anyone"....well I simply do NOT AGREE (Fully MY RIGHT),,,,,,because you know what..............I WOULD NEVER EVER CHEAT ON SOMEONE...That is still my choice in the end...Nothing (not even a GD alien...LOL) could make me do that. I can say categorically that developing female friendships will NEVER be a factor FOR ME in an intimate relationship breaking up.

Personally I think the MB program is a smashing success in a global sense, almost like a experimental cancer drug that comes on to the scene as the "real deal" in fighting previously untreatable cancer...but PERSONALLY I think too much of the philosophy predicates situations on "feelings" or "addictions" and not enough on FREE F-ING WILL...or 100% accountability. The disabling of the PM is just an example.....in the end, people who are gonna cheat...WILL CHEAT. As unpopular of a person that I am to some here with my opinions (lol, thank you for the kind emails), I can't help but be who I am. Sadly, I still believe that a cheater is ONLY as faithful as his/her options.....Sad, but true (at least IMO).

This is just my opinion. You said ANYBODY..so I am giving you my opinion. Agree, disagree, it is all ok with me.

Lem

I guess I should have clarified I'm not necessarily talking about infidelity. I agree that a wandering spouse should steer clear of such friendships out of respect for their spouse and because the risk is too high, but I'm one of those girls who's always had more male friends than female friends. Now, I've had friendships with men where inappropriate/disrespectful-to-my-significant-other flirting has taken place, and also ones with men who truly are sincere, valued friends. A couple times I've found myself caught up in situations while I was married, in which a "friend" was getting a bit too close for comfort so I backed off, having no interest in betraying my husband, but I still feel I can have friendships with men who really are after my friendship.

So, I just wanted to get everyone else's take on it.

Dear Julie, My husband is a great example of why opposite sex should not be good friends. My husband believed that men and woman shouldn't be good friends because the chance of affairs. Its playing with fire. He told this to the young activities director who told him that she had many men that were good friends. I was there when they had this conversation. Well over a years time, he went from being just friends to falling in love with this activities director. This has ruined my life, my mother-in-law's life, and destroyed me emotionally. They had an emotional affair that left me, the betrayed spouse, with a broken heart, broken marriage and a husband who says he doesn't love me and hasn't for years.

kdsheartbreak, I've been following your story and I know of your pain. If you've seen any of my thread(s), you then know that my husband also became emotionally attached to a co-worker recently who I am hoping/praying/dreaming he will be able to stay away from. I wanted to present this question to you all earlier today but worried for a while that I'd be shunned. I had a lunch date with a friend today. A man. A former colleague. He's actually gotten me an interview at his current place of employment, so if all goes well we'll soon be colleagues again. And there is NO CHANCE he & I will become emotionally (aside from true friendship) or physically involved with one another. When we worked in the same office, we went to lunch together several times a week. We went out drinking a few times. He's driven me home when I was too intoxicated to get myself there. He used to call me "Beautiful" and "Sunshine" and I told him to quit it because it made me uncomfortable, and he did. He's a great friend, I know this and my husband knows this, but I know there are many people who will disagree. I've had other friends who I've "let" make me feel a little more special. I think I'm with Lem on this one, to at least some degree.

Julie:

Actually I don't think we are together on this one at all. There is WAY TOO much in the post quoted above that you should be wary of. Intoxicated with another man BESIDES your husband is a f-ing recipe for disaster...and essentially removes free will....Alcohol definetely clouds judgement and I would strongly caution you that the type of situatin you discuss above is a screamign RED FLAG. Once another person starts calling you "beautiful" and "sunshine" the relationship is no LONGER on a "friend" level and should be grossly changed by you. Quite frankly, your situation above is EXACTLY the type of situation that many people including the Harley's caution people against.

Lem

I understand that, but I know the difference...and it's just not ever going to happen. He's one of my closest friends. Whenever there's been a red flag, I've gone away so as not to have a story. The man that I'm speaking of though, who I had lunch with today, is no threat.

Julie, you don't understand, the whole relationship should be avoided because it contains serious red flags. We are not just talking about avoiding specific incidents, it is these incidents that make the relationship inappropriate. Any man that tells you that you are "beautiful" and makes other intimate remarks has much more in mind than mere friendship. That is a line that a married person should not cross.

I don't believe this, but since my affair - i don't think I will ever be close with someone from the opposite sex.

H and I shared a best friend. Lets call him Fred. Fred and H were best friends, but Fred and I were also pretty much best friends. This friendship lasted over 7 years. i went to Fred when I was frustrated with H. H knew this - and it bugged him. I would get advice from Fred, and I would ask Fred to help me with H which he would. it all seemed to work okay...Fred and I were very close and worked together. Office rumors were Fred and I were having an A...H and I and Fred would laugh and make the rumors worse as H would joke that he watched...there were never any feelings between Fred and I ever - never once - just a friendship - like a brother, or a girlfriend, nothing inappropriate went on as far as I was concerned.

The spring before my A, Fred and H had a business together that was failing. Fred and H fought alot. I saw Fred being manipulative, and I saw H being a bully. Both would complain to me, I would try to be mediator - H got frustrated with me - he wanted my support. Fred contracted me for some work...Fred mismanaged it - it blew up - he blew up at me. Because Fred and H were best friends and partners, while H agreed Fred was wrong, he wouldn't support me due to the friendship and business.

3 months before I met OM, and after I had my major surgery that led to depression...H and Fred had one final blow up over moral ethics of the company (fred wasn't being to ethical) and H lost his best friend and business partner and the business sunk. Fred continued to contact me and complain about H as he had used to. I got sick of it, and told Fred off as well. After that - months of trying to ruin H's name here continued...then Fred let off - he still lives here and does his business, and H and I hope all is well.

I had my A, and in recovery, I started to analize this friendship and realized while it wasn't an EA, it was still an inappropriate friendship - why? I went to Fred for advice for my marriage instead of my H, I didn't give my husband my 100% support, instead I gave some support to Fred and some to my husband. I never had "love" feelings for Fred, nor ever thought about him romantically - but I gave another man what I was supposed to be giving my husband - support, advice and conversation.

I believe that Fred had alot to do with the deteriorating of our marriage - as when the time came for me to need my H after my surgery - he was not there for me because I had not been there for him.

I now look at the fact that a frienship like that with the opposite sex is VERY inappropriate. It takes away what I am to be giving my husband. If it was a friendship with a woman, it's different, as I don't take away the support and friendship that only my husband should have with me as the main male in my life.

I do have many male friends still, but none that I confide in - they are mutual friends that H and I have - and I joke with them, enjoy their company, but dont consider them close friends.

The only other close male friend I had was OM, and well - look where that ended.

i do have a highschool friend who has been my friend for 13 years now. But even with him, I do not confide or complain about my husband. Nor do I give him support my husband needs. he is a good friend, but not a close, or best friend.

I think if an opposite sex friendship starts to take away what you should be giving your spouse - then it is inappropriate - this doesn't mean it's an EA - but that it is still wrong.

I hear you all, but there's no attraction - NONE - which was made clear YEARS ago and we've since become friends. I see no reason to end it.

I didn't consider that I may offend some people with this, but now realize it couldn't be avoided. I guess that means I'll be on my own from here on out, with H's current EA situation, heh...

And I have to say I agree 100% with lemonman. An affair is not just something that "happens to you," it is a chosen behavior. And it is something I would never choose. I know myself well enough to know that I would also never murder, molest or rob. I may not choose my feelings, but I sure as ****** do choose my actions.

I have lots of male friends, acquaintences, and customers and I know how to behave around them. I don't discuss intimate personal things and if they do, I politely change the subject. I never flirt or hang out with guys that flirt with me. I have worked in mostly an all-male culture for years and know how to behave around men.

LOL LOL LOL......Julie, Julie, Julie..........come on girl. You have a right to your opinions, so go with what you BELIEVE is right for you. We may not agree, but so f-ing what....IT IS YOUR LIFE.....do you think people are going to not want to help you because they disagree with you.....Come on girl, you are not alone at all....this was a great thread to learn from.

Something just ocurred to me that might change my answer a bit. I am not "friends" with any male other than my H, my dad, my brother. I am an acquaintence of many men at work and will have lunch sometimes, etc. However, I do not consider them my "friend" in the same sense as my girlfriends are "friends." I tell intimate personal things about my life to my girlfriends. I would NEVER do that with a male coworker. It is like night and day because I would NEVER allow my relationship with a male work acquaintence to come to that level. So, I guess the true answer is that I do not really have any male "friends" in the same sense as I have female "friends."

I agree, and Fred (my friend's name is Fred too!) and I have never discussed my M, even though he's been my friend thru a couple of our separations over the years. He knows no intimate details of my marriage or really my life, but he's still my friend and a true friend at that because he truly cares about me, my kids, H, and all of our well-being.



This is where I was "with Lem" earlier...we all choose our actions and reactions thus either allowing the opportunity for further "feelings" or cutting off any chance of them developing. In a couple cases, I've had to cut communication with men who wanted to be my "friend" then quickly started asking about my husband & if I was happy, etc. but in this case, H & I both feel safe w/him (Fred) as my friend.

Nope, I was mostly joking there! I DO know that Fred & I are JUST FRIENDS, though I totally understand and respect how this could make some of your blood boil and possibly hurt some of your feelings. Heck, my H is "just friends - good friends" with a co-worker and I've never been more terrified for my marriage! That aside, I gotta tell you though, I'm proof that it CAN be done, NSA. I'm also proof that even when temptation comes along, and it's all over the place, you CAN resist! My H/OW & 2 other co-workers of mine's "relationship" had 2 things in common - it was where details and complaints/concerns about the M were discussed, which is absolutely inappropriate and poisonous to our marriage.

Melody, I agree and I don't share the same things w/my male friends as I do with my girl friends. But like I said, I've always had more male friends than girl friends, so maybe I'm just a poor example...!? Though I know a lot of women are in the same boat about what kind of friends they have.

Julie,

Here is my belief and standard on opposite sex friendships:

I believe married man and women can be “just friends” ONLY if they:

1) Stay aware of their weaknesses/vulnerabilities; have PROPER boundaries in place and don’t allow the friendship to cross certain boundaries. NO FLIRTING - no matter how innocent or subtle the flirting may appear!

2) Take their spous(es) into consideration AT ALL TIMES, always put the spous(es) FIRST and make the spous(es) PART of the friendship. (This include not sharing intimate or personal details if the spous(es) are not present).

3) Don’t do or say ANYTHING they wouldn’t do IN FRONT of the spous(es) (this automatically form part of nr 1 & 2)

The above will keep the M safe and not allow the friendship to become a thread to the M. However, I don’t believe in married men and women being “best friends” simply because the SPOUSE is suppose to be the “best friend”. As I’ve said above, the spouse must always COME FIRST and the communication channels must always be kept open between spouses. Problems usually develop if spouses don’t honestly communicate about events, feelings etc.

Yes, certainly it’s possible to resist temptation. I have also done that (resist temptation e.g. resist acting on my feelings for FOM). But why put yourself in a position where you can get tempted or develop tempting/inappropriate feelings for someone of the opposite sex in the first place??? Not a good idea and playing with fire IMO. I have done that mistake once and I will NEVER put myself in such a position again. This is also why I have such a strong stanch on opposite sex friendships now.

Julie

Squid and I have been discussing this. Well, more POJAing really. Squid has many male 'friends' through her sport which is a male dominated one, and Squid is a nurse, one of teh most senior instructors and a great listener.

One 'friend' has been confiding some very intimate things with her. To her great credit Squid told me about this and held the phone call with him in the room with me.

Once teh call was over I expressed my concern with this:

" Dave's just a mate, and he's in a stew over this injury and his row with the senior instructor. he needs somebody to talk to "

Why you ? Why not his wife or a male friend ?

"erm..Daves not a risk he's not clever, and not handsome and just a friend"

OM was 15 years older than you, very short, fat and didn't graduate high school....

" so what CAN I say to Dave and the other men in the club?"

Anything you wish, but if you want to avoid danger and hurting me dont discuss ANYTHING that you would not discuss with THEIR W and me there.

"I see. OK. I don't like it but I see".

Squid just didn't associate other-sex relationships gone too far with her affair.

She does now.

I lso think that the thing that turns a good acquiantance into a great friend is shared intimacy and unique experiences. No married person should have any of thos ewith anyone but their spouse an dsame sex friends IMO & IME.

I wouldn't be here if WW hadn't started a "friendship" with a neighbor. Oh yes at first it was hows the weather etc.,but soon there after he's bo hooing bout his marriage etc. 18mths later shes now living with him 10 wks after d day.
Julie only you know you, but I would be cautiuous and look for the red flags

I clearly don't fit into any of the above scenarios. My best friend is a guy.

We've been best friends for the better of 15 years. At one point, over a span of I'd say 4 years, we did take it to a different level, and we were in an intimate relationship, but neither of us were married at the time.

At another point we were even roommates. We weren't involved while we were roommates either.

We've probably witnessed more relationships together than most people, I've known every girl he's ever dated, married, or divorced, and he pretty much knows the same about me.

As the years past, I'm currently married and have been with my H for almost 8 years. He knows my H, I've met his W, and both spouses know we're best friends, and aren't threatened in the least by the other.

As a matter of fact, we both experienced the pain of infidelity. My recovery went one way, his another.

Our spouses don't even have the feeling of being left out of anything. He recently got married for the second time, but I can honestly say crossing those boundaries has not been an issue for quite some time, and won't ever be again.

Maybe it's because we were able to explore it, and so there's not all that sexual tension that sometimes builds up.

I trust him, he trusts me, probably more than we trust anyone or ourselves.

We don't include our spouses, I don't share every conversation or email I receive, and I'm quite sure he doesn't either. it's just different I guess.

I can talk to him about something that happened and it circles something in my life from 10 years ago, and I don't have to explain all the complexities associated with such events, he knows, he lived through it with me.

So like I said, I'm not the norm. I think it's possible.

I do also believe in free will.

Would I trust my FWS with that level of intimacy with anyone?

Probably not, so that makes me a hypocrite I suppose.