Hi Everyone,

I was here five years ago, same screen name. My first husband of 22 years had cheated on me and we wound up divorcing. I guess his was definitely an exit affair.

Fast forward to present, I remarried two years ago to a man that I had dated for a year and a half. He has bi-polar disorder, which I knew and researched and decided that it was something we could both deal with together--but he was taking his medication then.

About six months ago he quit taking the lithium, refuses to even consider it. He's self-medicating by drinking from the time he gets home until he passes out. Weekends are even better since he starts drinking shortly after breakfast. And I know that this will sound petty, but his personal hygiene is not a priority at all for him. We've actually had fights because he won't brush his teeth before he comes to bed--since he says that it hurts his teeth. If you don't drink or smoke, the breath of a smoker/drinker is unbearable on the other side of the bed.

I've reached the breaking point and I guess I'm getting ready to be a two-time loser. Honestly, the only thing that's kept me from leaving is the huge investment that I made in his house, to remodel it to suit "my high-class needs". I'll lose all that but at least I'll be able to leave with my life.

Does anyone have advice for dealing with an alcoholic husband? I've tried to tell him over and over how unhappy I am with his drinking (everyday!!!!). He doesn't care or won't listen. I just can't live like this anymore.

THANKS!!

This is from a Harley radio show. My husband was abusive and had an affair. He has taken responsibility for that. I typed up this because I thought it was SO true. There is nothing you can do. You can take it or you can leave him. He is showing no consideration for you

RADIO TRANSCRIPT

Bill: Why do people do things that hurt other people? And the answer is that part of it is we don’t care about other people. We only care about ourselves, and when we are only caring about ourselves and we’re not caring about other people, people should run for cover. And the question is: What is it we can do to make ourselves safe in relationships with other people and that is to create environmental factors – environmental rules, regulations – to live by that consciously and purposely protect other people from our own selfish instincts.

Joyce: What is the percentage – How successful can couples be after infidelity and having a good marriage? … An affair happens in your marriage. What is the likelihood of success that your marriage will become happy again and maybe even better than before the infidelity?

Bill: It’s very low, very low. Most couples that have affairs end their marriage in
divorce. Most of those that remain remain unhappy…

Joyce: I seem to get the impression that her husband is blaming her for not being happy with the infidelity…

Bill: Not being happy with her so he ends up -- he says he’s not happy with her so has an affair

Joyce: Oh, so it’s her fault he’s having an affair…

Bill: And if she’d be a little more cooperative I wouldn’t be having so many affairs… And it’s the same argument people use that are physically abusive. Basically, if my wife would stop irritating me, I wouldn’t be beating her as much. The question is: What can she do to get him to quit having affairs? The answer is: Nothing. There’s nothing she can do. It’s really all in his court. If he has one affair, my argument has always been that that is sufficient to divorce. Now, the question is: Does he want to straighten things out with her? If he does, then the question is: What does he have to do? Well, he has to never see or talk to the lover again. He has to create extraordinary precautions, make sure he doesn’t have that affair rekindled or any other affair and he has to make sure their marriage is restored. When somebody has an affair, it isn’t so much what should the person who is betrayed, what should they do, to get him to stop having an affair.. Yes, indeed, you need to have emotional needs met, but it’s still no excuse for having an affair.

Joyce: And it sounds to me like he is just using his wife as an excuse to justify what he really wants to be doing – and he doesn’t want to be faithful.

Bill: Yeah. And anybody that says, well, the reason that I hit you is because of what you did or what you said, it’s the same kind of a thing. The first step toward overcoming domestic violence is to recognize that there are no excuses for domestic violence…What’s the first step in anger management counseling? And that is to convince the violent spouse that they have no right ever hurting their spouse regardless of what their spouse may have said or done.

Joyce: But how do you convince them of that if they can always justify their outburst of anger?

Bill: This is where counseling is important. Counseling from my perspective is an opportunity to change somebody’s mind, to change somebody’s thoughts, to change somebody’s attitudes, to change them. And a lot of times you got to begin with their attitudes. But that’s not where you end. You can’t end with attitudes, because you have to end with behavior. I’ve known a lot of people that fully believe that they should not be beating their wife, and yet they can’t stop because they haven’t learned to stop doing that…So the first step is to recognize that there is no excuse for an affair. If her husband were to tell me, every time I have an affair, I feel guilty, I feel like I’ve sinned against God, I’ve sinned against my wife, I’ve sinned against my children, I’m a horrible person to be doing this. Then I would say, “Now, what we have to do is create an environment where you’re not going to have another affair. And it’s going to be very restrictive, at least at first. You’re basically going to be watched 24 hours a day. You’re not going to be able to do and say what you want to say. It’s just like with helping a person overcome addiction to alcohol. You can’t be working in a bar when you are trying to recover from being an alcoholic. This woman’s husband says, “It’s your fault that I’m having an affair.” And I’d say, “What can she do to get him to stop?” And the answer is “Absolutely nothing. There’s nothing she can do. She has to walk away. She has to turn her back and walk away from him. Otherwise, she’s going to continue to be hurt by him the rest of their lives. The same thing is true of men that beat their wives. The same thing is true with men or woman who are verbally abusive. The question is: “How do I get my spouse to stop being abusive? How do I get my spouse to stop hurting me?” The answer is, “There’s nothing you can do. It’s all on the part of the person who is doing the damage.”

Cherished
Did I interpret the transcript correctly?

Please tell me there is a context here that gives me some hope.

It has more been than 14 months since dday of my H's LTA. And we are talking long. He is here, says he is happier than he can remember. Doesn't think about her except when I bring it up. I haven't been able to let go of the betrayal and we continue to have conflict about it. It's probably the only source of conflict for us.

That's why I decided to check out this board. I told him yesterday I feel like we are stuck. We have expectations the other cannot meet at this point and neither of us feel able to move our perspective.

Your insight would be appreciated.

thanks.
hns

Heartnsoul, This is a bit of a threadjack. My recommendation is that you start your own thread on GQ II.

My H also had an A, but in addition he broke my arm when I threatened to call her -- and this was the week before Christmas and 12 days after surgery for childbirth related pelvic prolapse. I had just had a hysterectomy.

Believe me, no one in my family thought our marriage would survive. And no one could understand why I was so much more upset about the A than the broken arm, which by the way was one of the bones broken in seven pieces. I had to have three surgeries for it.

Please give yourself credit for being willing to try. An affair is just a terrible blow. I don't think those who betray quite get it. If your H is trying to meet your needs and has expressed sincere regret, your bringing it up will bring up positive memories that he was with her and create negative memories that he'll have of you.

It's very, very simple. People think they are unique and special, and they aren't. You could meet your H's needs, and so could OW and so could thousands of other women. He married you, which means he made a commitment that intimate emotional needs would be met by you and you alone. He broke that commitment.

If you is willing to 1) prevent others from meeting those needs, 2) allow you to meet them, and 3) meet them for you,
then you may be able to create a great marriage. But it comes down to recognizing that you aren't special, your husband isn't special, and neither is OW. What creates love are actions -- the meeting of ENs.

As for the woman to whom I posted, her H hasn't gotten past the step of taking responsibility for his own actions. All she can do at this point is tell him to leave.

Cherished

Thanks Cherished (and heartnsoul is welcome to ask questions here)

I guess I hadn't really looked at this in the context of my ex-husband's affair and my inability to have changed any of that. It makes me wonder if I setting myself in some kind of pattern. My husband (now) has never been and I don't think would ever be abusive. He's more passive/aggressive which is the way I see his refusal to take his BPD medication and/or to stop self-medicating with alcohol.

I so don't want another divorce... it just seems like such failure to me. But, I also know that I can't continue living with a drunk. I talked to him this afternoon about seeing a counselor and, it looks like he won't even consider that. If I could hog tie him and drag him I swear I would.

Thank you, Cherished. I apologize for the inappropriate threadjack.

Afraid2Love

Thank you for your kindness and extending me a welcome to ask questions. I apologize for the insensitivity I demonstrated by posting my own problems on your thread.

I cannot even come close to offering wisdom or advice. I can tell you that my brother has struggled with alcohol his whole adult life (turns 50 this year). It is very, very hard on the people who love him .... wives (2nd divorce), parents, sisters, and children. He is a good man with a health problem that affects everyone around him. And like others with health problems, his choices have not always been in step with the health problem he has. My Mom is a diabetic and she eats too much chocolate. I have hypertension but would rather read the boards at MB than take a walk. With my brother though, his choices affected his behavior as well as his health. He has been free of alcohol for two years now. I pray that he can continue to be strong.

I wish there was something I could say or do to be helpful. I will pray. I can do that without inflicting too much damage. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

hns

Have you tried Al-Anon? They have meetings everywhere, and I am told are very helpful in dealing with an alcoholic spouse. However, the problem is that you can learn a lot, but he is still the one who has to decide he is ready to make changes.


I think you are quite justified in deciding that you cannot live like this anymore, BTW...what you describe is not something I'd live with either.

Kathi

Hi Everyone,

Well, I tried for several more months after I posted last year. In June, after he had been off meds for over a year, he took vacation time for 10 days. During those 10 days, he drank, non-stop.

The night before he was to go back to work, he totally flipped out. Shoved me around, called me terrible names, made me leave the house in my t-shirt and undies, kicked my dog around. He looked like Satan. I have never been so frightened in my life. I left the house and called the cops, he spent two nights in jail. He was under a restraining order to not return to the house. I packed up everything, found a house several counties away, and moved within two weeks.

That was nearly two months ago. I'm still very scared at night and just wishing that it could all be over. My state requires a mandatory one year separation before divorce.

I feel like the biggest loser on earth. I've resigned myself to being alone for the rest of my life, which is probably best. But sometimes the loneliness is overwhelming.

I just don't think that I can ever practice Joint Agreement. I tried so hard to talk with my husband about his drinking and his refusal to take his medicine but I couldn't reach him. I tried to get him to go to counseling and went to Al-Anon but I think that deep inside I started to despise him for his alcoholism and his BPD. I'm certain that I was not practicing the Harley principles the way that I should have, but looking back I can't figure out how I could have done it.

I think it is important that I learn something from this and make myself better for it. Anyone with criticism and/or insight on what I should have done better?

Thanks,

A2L

You want to learn from this...and your first marriage. That's laudable. Great self-care in that, I think.

What did you learn as the BS the first time around? Did you Plan A?

What did you learn about boundaries and standards?

Welcome back...

LA

Thanks, LA.

I guess from my first marriage (did Plan A and then Plan B) I learned that the marriage has to come first, that you have to make time to be with your spouse no matter how strong you think the bond is. I was wrapped up in a demanding career, my still HS age daughter had just had a beautiful little baby (the absolute delight of my life) and I was so busy working and helping to take care of the new granddaughter that my husband must have felt neglected.

I really tried with Plan A but he was so wrapped up in his mistress that nothing made any difference. After I realized that he was moving on, I went to Plan B. That seemed to have more of an impact on him, once he realized that our life was going to end. He then made many attempts to come back, but it was to be on his terms, and my pride wouldn't have that. I've often wondered if I should have taken him back, no matter what the rules would have been.

On to second husband... I worked very hard to practice POJA, radical honesty, and to build up the Love Bank. Or, at least I thought I did. He was so loving, caring, and tender for the first couple of years of our marriage as well as the 18 months we dated. I pampered him any way that I could. But, after he decided that he would no longer take his medication, I just couldn't reach him. And, with the alcohol on top of that I watched him change. And, I changed too. I got to the point where I could not stand to be around him when he was drinking.

I started thinking more and more about getting out, which pushed us further apart. Looking back I should have pushed harder and harder until he went back on meds and maybe even have forced him into rehab.

I need to think about this more. I still feel like I'm placing blame on my X's and not looking deep enough inside.
I do know that I have a very black or white outlook on life. I really just never see shades of gray which makes me think that I lack an ability for empathy.

More later,

A2L

So you learned first hand the Rule of Time and its importance...you learned making marriage the top priority...you learned you have pride and that you act from your feelings when making decisions...

Doesn't sound like you learned about three stages of marriage...first phase, the best-self time, which goes into real-self time (hardest part) to get to the mature love time.

You own that as your second H went off his meds and began drinking, that you chose to withdraw...and entered withdrawal as Harley describes.

When I asked about standards and boundaries...all these things come into play. You reacted to your two H's...which was your choice...rather than acted. That's a great thing to know.

This isn't condemning--seeing where your power was, half of the marriage--is really important.

And that you can work really hard, give a ton of effort, and not be protected from betrayal (your 2nd H choosing to stop his meds was a betrayal)...and that working smarter may be what makes the difference.

I suggest "Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud and Townsend (they have a series, so if you prefer "Boundaries," they have that, also).

When you went to Al-Anon, did you get a sponsor? Go to just a few meetings? Buy any of the literature and read it?

As for the shoulds and what ifs...I would rather point out that you did not give your first nor your second H's a way back...a map to reconciliation...sounds like you felt the same way, both times, when you went into Plan B, per se.

LA

First, I'd really like to thank LovingAnyway for her great insight. I've mulled over her words and been very self-examining for the last few days.

Today, I took my dog for a refresher session with her trainer who is such an insightful man. We had been having some small issues in her behavior and I wanted his input on what was going on with her. I felt that much of her behavior was stemming from me and my craziness. We discussed (without me giving him all the details, simply saying that my dog and I had gone through a very traumatic event two months ago) how my dog has been acting, my concern for her safety (she is refusing to "come"), and our change in circumstances. He talked about her need to see me as the strong pack leader and she knows that I'm in a very weak, unstable way right now and that she doesn't trust me.

We worked through solutions and he gave me homework to do with her. I always appreciate his quick wit and sensitivity. But, I thought of how I needed to apply much of his philosophy to straightening out myself, also. It only makes sense that if I'm willing to spend a rather significant sum of money on making sure that my dog is well-adjusted, that I should be willing to do the same for myself.

I called to schedule counseling with a woman in my area. I think that I can do all the looking inward, re-evaluating of my life and my actions in the world, but unless I have someone with a no nonsense approach to help me take a good long look at myself I'll just be spinning my wheels.

I just started reading "Boundaries" and I am stunned that I never realized that while I knew that I had boundaries, I never voiced them to either of my husbands. It's like being slapped upside the head by something that should have been so obvious. I am, however, having some conflict in reconciling boundaries with POJA. I don't think I ever realized that I was cheating myself by not making sure that STBX was medicating and not drinking. It seemed to become insurmountable.

I also believed that spouses have a right to privacy. I've always felt that I am an open-book, but now I realize that I really wasn't. I think it is finally dawning on me that privacy is just not something that can ever be practiced in a strong marriage.

Sorry if I'm rambling. Sometimes when I start thinking about how much I've messed up in my life I'm surprised that anyone ever married me in the first place.

Hugs!
A2L