You said you went to Plan B despite feeling your H had no attachment to you at that point. That must have been terrifying!

My H and are plodding along through R, but he states he does "not love [me], but [does] not hate [me]." He says he is indifferent to me (however, things he says and does I feel suggest he is not entirely indifferent). And, he has said he is afraid to give me his heart again.

There are all sorts of issues:

-my A and the pain it has caused him (He has had to become an individual. He has discovered he was co-dependent before). He is still trying to figure out who he "is".

-he detached from me somewhat prior to A (though the IDLY speech came after OW was in the pic)

-he re-wrote some marital history, but states he tells his IC we were happy

-he is a CA and he has years worth of resentment built up and this has affected his feelings about me and M

-he thought he "loved" OW (3-mos A)

-he has worries about us having the same problems as before (me too as I see certain patterns re-emerging)

-states he is not sure he can forgive my A though he had one too (Not sure I'd want to be with him anyway if that was the case)

-no MBers principles applied to As until the very end, so no "map" created for recovery of M (plus, he does not follow one of the things he agreed to when he stayed -which was he wear his wedding ring)

-I have been a pain to live with the last 6 mos. as I was hurting so badly and I pushed the MBers principles too strongly in the beginning (I have since learned that I manage my anxiety by controlling things--definitely working on this. Now, he knows that me being controlling is one of his concerns).

-His A has hurt me so much less than how he has acted since the A. I need his support/consideration and I rarely get that.

-I have serious concerns about the CA as this is part of what led to his A and his resentment. I still see this pattern happening regularly and I am starting to get upset about this as he regularly ends conversations without restarting them (though this is our agreement).



H has been working more on personal recovery than marital R. We do not really have any rules/boundaries in place except NC and we are going to MC.

But, H states he does not "see me the same way" and thinks he does not love me anymore. I am not sure that this is the case as he told me in February that he knew "deep down" that he still loved me and this was well into his A and after I got the IDLY speech. Plus, I have seen other signs.

My concern is that because our situation is so different with two As, (now that I am stronger than I was) I try to be extra considerate and cautious of him these days and realize we are in different places in R. He is not putting as much into the M as I would like, though we have made steady and gradual progress.

I want to give him the time he needs without pushing, but do I have the right to expect anything as I am a WS/BS too? I think the "rules" are somewhat different for my sitch and I want to be considerate of that. But, in order for us to recover our M, we both have to do the work . Do I just wait out his personal R? At what point can I expect some of my ENs to be met too? I do not want to be demanding as my H sees me as the WS more than the BS, but I also would like some ENs met too. He says he is so resentful that he "put up" with not having certain top needs met. We both were not meeting some ENs for years. I need to see that that will change now. I am scared because so few of my ENs are being met, but then I feel like it will take time as he sees me as the WS and does not much feel like meeting my ENs at this point. <<<SIGH>>>


Basically, trying to balance being understanding of where he is at (he has asked for patience) and what I can/should ask for in regards to our M recovery.

Improving:

I don't have much time tonight....

I still say TIME AND PATIENCE, though. It took a full 6 months for my FWH to even BEGIN to really act like himself again.

The value of PLAN B is that I was the stronger, more emotionally healthy one of us and I was a mess... In your case, both of you are coming out of As..

TIME is necessary for your healing...

RECOVERY is tough. I think it has been almost the toughest part...

I would think in terms of his ENs...What are his primary ENs? I find with my H that the more I give, the more I get... I focus on meeting his primary ENs and then he reciprocates...

Make sense?

Are you sure there is NC with the OW?

Had you considered counseling with Steve Harley since your H seems receptive to counseling... The only counselor my FWH would speak with was Steve...

I had no other choice, either go into PLAN B or completely lose it. I had to work and take care of our son. The craziness had gone on too long.



When do these discussions occur? Do you ask him how he feels about you? Sounds like a lot of R talk. I'm sharing my experience with you, Improving, not saying it's the right approach. I focused on my H's actions and not what he said to me. He chose to be with me. Early on, he mostly demonstrated his "love" for me through his actions. He spontaneously began to tell me how he feels without me asking. I, too, have issues with being demanding and being perceived as "controlling". I have learned to pull back and let him make the first move. It's a "MAN THING" that he likes...

The part about being "afraid to give you his heart again" sticks out to me. We're just beginning to really establish CLOSENESS and INTIMACY....That's the last step...it's hard but WONDERFUL. I think you have overly high expectations for yourselves to think you would be there so early on...

Regarding THE ISSUES..as I said previously, can you restate these in regards to ENs. I think the MB PRINCIPLES and APPROACH have been most helpful to us...

Therefore, why is this, as you say:



This point of view should be discouraged, I think. Being in a loving committed marital R makes you better individuals.



Improving, I don't buy what he says. However, ask yourself why he is saying this? What ENs of his do you need to address? Even today, I continue to try to sense what my H's needs are. I LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN to the MESSAGE BEHIND THE MESSAGE and OBSERVE HIS ACTIONS. This takes WORK, WORK, WORK. As I stated before, he does the same in kind. I don't feel uncomfortable in taking the lead in this because he eagerly follows. What did you use to do when you were "courting" him? What does he like that you were willing to do when you first started dating but got lazy about doing now? For example, I am not a morning person but my H is. The other morning he got up very early as usual and I surprised him by getting up with him. I could tell that he was delighted...He was especially sweet to me the rest of the day...



You see, Improving? It seems that you focus a lot on him. I have learned since the beginning of this to FOCUS ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY ONLY ON MYSELF..... I CAN ONLY CHANGE MYSELF!!!!

What have you done to make amends to him given that you were also the WS? Again, here, focusing on yourself. It meant alot to me for my H to express his regret to me. He did this profusely and excessively. He has made it EXTREMELY CLEAR to me how sorry he is about how much he has hurt me. He has done this mainly through his actions...Pulling me to him, squeezing me tightly, buying me many gifts (yes, that is one of my love languages... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

Your FWH has asked for PATIENCE? Ok,GREAT!! However, this does not stop you from doing your own work...

Hope this helps....

This was not happening. This was one of the hardest parts.

H stated at MC today that he thinks he wants a D. And, he sounded like he has made a choice to not forgive my A. He made it sound like this was something he decided. Not sure what hope we have in that case as I certainly have no desire to married to a man who can have an A, but will not forgive one.

I have to admit feeling somewhat relieved in hearing that he might want D. This "new" man my H has become is not the one I want to be married to. He seems to want to make me the scapegoat for all his problems and it gets real tiresome. The qualities that made him better and more special than other men seem to have disappeared and I told him recently that he is just mean. No matter what I have done, I do not deserve that. And, I am not sure I want a man who is not willing to give our M the chance it deserves. He has never really had his whole heart and soul in R and I am getting tired of going it alone. The things I need to see improve with regards to CA/passsive-aggressiveness and meeting ENs are not improving much.

I do not know what to do from here. I have always felt if we joined together to recover our M, we would most likely be successful, yet he has just never done this. I can believe in us all I want, but at some point, he has to try too.

Improving:

The question is: Is there continued contact with the OW? My H wanted a D, too, when he was involved in the A? That is a major question that I think you need to have answered. Not by him, BTW. This calls for research on your part. I'm talking- ANY TYPE OF CONTACT WHATSOEVER...

So when he said, I THINK I want a D, what did you say? What did the counselor say?

The more I read your post, the more I think that he is still in contact.


You are right about this...

Let me hear from you regarding the contact issue with the OW....

He has said the IDLY thing a few times recently. But, I also got it soon after OW was in the picture and then he later said he knew he still loved me "deep down". I would like to believe a love like ours would not dissapate so quickly.

The being afraid to give me his heart has usually been written down by him. Being scared to be hurt again by me has been a common theme. I understand completely because I feel like I am hanging out on a limb in a thunder storm most of the time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />



My main expectation is that he keep his word and give our M a chance. The rest I feel would follow. And, if it didn't, we could both walk away with a clear conscience. He has never really given us a chance. It has always been the two of us separately doing things, rather than us joined as a team trying to do the work to save it.



I think peace would rate high up there, SF, and feeling I love him, care about him, and respect him.



I have sincerely expressed regret on many occasions. I have worked at meeting his ENs and apologized for not doing so sooner. I have given him many heart-felt apologies. I never plan anything without making sure he is comfortable with it. I try to anticipate things that might bother him and am transparent. I try to be extra cautious and considerate with my actions, so I do not give him any reason to question me or have fear again because of my actions. I do almost everything with him in mind.

I am working on me and will continue to do so. I would love to have a healthy, loving M with my H, but I will continue to work on myself and work towards R, regardless of what does/does not happen in my M.

They still work together, about 5 feet away from each other. So, there is continued visual contact. Do I think there is still talk? I would not be surprised. If I had to decide, I would lean towards NC (this is a feeling I have gotten from multiple things).

However, given the addictive nature of As and the fact that H said he "loved" her, I would not be shocked to find out if they were back together. One main reason that I have not checked myself is that I think I would be done at that point. I do not know, after everything, that I would care anymore to stay. R would have to look a HElI of a lot better than it does now.

There are certain times where I wonder. The scapegoating makes me think that he might be in the A (he did this a lot in the A, but it is hard to know how much of it is the pain/anger at what I did). My H was always an honorable man who took responsibility for his own actions, that is rarely the case now. Now, seems I am to blame for everything he does and everything I do too. He has a different set of rules for me than for himself. He will tell me something I did wrong, and in the next breath, justify him doing the exact same things. It's behavior like this that makes me doubt NC and not want to save the M.

What is weird is that he was much nicer to me after he said he wanted the D.

Visual contact is all that is needed, Improving.

I didn't know this about your situation.

That's why RECOVERY has not worked.

Forget about his request for Divorce right now..

My FWH wanted a D too when he was still in contact with the OW...

I know I'm answering you bluntly because I'm hurrying.. I'm sorry..

But if he does not agree to No Contact with her then PLAN B seems the best solution for you right now...

LATER...

Don't focus on the codependent crap and all that.. He's still addicted to her and getting a daily fix...just think of the games that are being played there...

He has to have absolutely NO CONTACT WITH HER WHATSOEVE before he can go through withdrawal.

Until this happened my FWH was not in love with me either.

Simple yet complicated....

I don't have much time right now..

But your problem is very clear.....

What a coincidence, he just e-mailed me and told me she is taking a job elsewhere.

What's going on?

What do you mean? She is leaving, he is just not sure when.
I have to admit, I feel more comfortable knowing she will not be there.

I have done a lot of soul-searching because I really do not want to lose my H or our relationship. I have believed in us from the start and just was scared to get hurt again, to trust again, etc. I thought about what you said and realized that maybe I have not shown enough remorse, maybe I have not done enough to make up for my A. I have been hurting so badly, I have been more focused on me than the incredible pain I caused my H. I know that what I did has torn his heart out and I am so angry at myself and at the same time feel so horrible for destroying him the way I did-- that my lack of coping mechanisms has hurt the man I love so terribly. If I had understood myself better and known my weaknesses, I probably would not have been so susceptible to my A (because my ENs had not been met priort to that for a while, but it took a bunch of stuff all at once for my coping mechanisms to just disintegrate). And, even now, my own coping mechanisms (and his) are continuing to hurt us and I truly do not want that.

And, I realize that I have never promised my H that it would never happen again. I assumed from my behavior that it was obvious. I will never do this again and have worked very hard to understand who I am and what got me here, so I never make such a grave mistake again.

I now know that I have pushed to have my ENs met because I was hurting so much from his A and was scared of a false R and having a M (again) where my most important needs are not met. But, I tried to see it today from my H's POV and realize how I might sound. I have felt such a sense of entitlement because I was the BS too. Now, I realize I have not atoned nearly enough for what I have done.

My H is angry at himself for what he did (he said this). I wonder if on some level he blames me for his A too. Like,"If she had not done what she had done, I would not have done this, and then I would not have to be so angry with myself."

I am so incredibly sorry for what I have done and I felt I was showing it, but along the way, I got so caught up in being the BS, that I forgot to show him the FWS too. I want my H and my M back. That is all I have ever wanted. I don't know that I have done enough to atone for my A. Will I ever be able to? I don't know, but I want to try.

I never have much time in the evening.

That's a good thing. Going jogging with FWH...

Just want to point out that ---Now is the start of your Recovery...

Most if not all that he has been saying has been FOG TALK...

Later....