Recently I have been trying to explain to W the difference between empathy and sympathy. I read on another thread that an older woman gave the following advice to one of our members abouts her H's A; "every day will shed a new light". Today was a solar eclipse. Tomorrow is my 20th anniversary and I have not even planned to give W a card. I have wrestled with this for a long time and just can't fake it enough to even get a card.

Today we had lunch and as we were leaving the restaurant she started talking about the members of her old pool team (read OM). She said that an older woman on the team was asking her to come out tonight and watch them. She asked me if I would mind. On the eve of our 20th would I mind if she went out to a bar with her former lover? Finally I stood up for myself and said I would mind. That is the difference between empathy and sympathy. My W pities me and my inability to sweep her A under the rug. But if she empathized SHE would be hiding under the rug and not asking me if I mind.

Happy 20th WOE.

I am so sorry WOE. Must have been crushing to hear her ask for that. I am glad you said what you did and stood up for yourself. I am afraid I would have said go. Then gone home and packed my H's stuff and changed the locks on the doors.

Realtor, thanks. She simply doesn't get it. We are going to a wedding on Saturday for pool team member who left years back. If OM is there I will tell him to explain to my W that I have left the building. I can't control her but I'll be damned if I'm going to participate anymore.

It has really worn me down and perhaps beyond repaid. We'll see what tomorrow brings.

Take care.

WOE,

Sorry to see this. I both empathize and sympathize with you. My W met with OM on the very day of our anniversary. Well, OK, it was such a long LTA they met on many days of note; even my birthday.

I think this has less to do with pathos as it does with simply caring about you and not caring about you.

For the record:

sympathy -

1 a: an affinity, association, or relationship between persons or things wherein whatever affects one similarly affects the other
1 b: mutual or parallel susceptibility or a condition brought about by it
1 c: unity or harmony in action or effect
2 a: inclination to think or feel alike such as emotional or intellectual accord
2 b: feeling of loyalty
3 a: the act or capacity of entering into or sharing the feelings or interests of another
3 b: the feeling or mental state brought about by such sensitivity
4: the correlation existing between bodies capable of communicating their vibrational energy to one another through some medium


empathy -

1: the imaginative projection of a subjective state into an object so that the object appears to be infused with it
2: the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner


Man, sympathy has way too many uses, IMO. However, number 4 seems to apply to A partners in a particularly sordid way, huh. Maybe the fog is the eather.

WOE, on your anniversary I want you to know that if nothing else, you have loved your W and have wanted to recover your M with her. Hopefully today is better than yesterday.

3/23/04, 3 months after d-month, was our 19th anniversary. One or 2 days before I told H let's not even acknowledge it this year because there's nothing to celebrate this year. So we didn't. We didn't say one word to each other on the day. As it turns out he folded with the NC and was calling OW at the time, which I found out later.

My meditation for today from the book "The Language of Letting Go" basically said that in our soul searching, in all the decisions we make large and small, we need to ask ourselves "Is this good for me?" I realize that in terms of my own recovery I'm still not sure if choosing to stay with H was good for me. I'm just being honest. I thought of you when I read this also. I guess we all have to face the truth in ourselves at some point if working on recovery was worth it, and maybe we won't know that until the day we can call ourselves recovered. Sending hugs Bro! CV

WOE:

2day, if you don't feel celebrative with your W, try 2 celebrate the things you've learned and the principles you've s2d for through all this.

Make 2day something meaningful 2 you.

-ol' 2long

Aphelion, sorry to hear about your sitch. Hope you are now in recovery as I'm not familiar with your case. Your definitions remind me of one of my old sig lines. A Mexican saying; "to talk of bulls is not the same thing as being in the bull ring". I suppose that is the difference.

CV and 2, thanks for your support. I'm actually feeling much better today and taking the high road. I rented a car, made dinner reservations and picked up the beautiful "past,present,future" pendant I had been thinking about. All that and the 1985 bottle of Cabernet from our honeymoon ought to make it a night to remember; if only for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I really think we'll put our weapons down for this historic event. Hopefully I'll have a good report tomorrow. Again thanks for your support. Not to be negative but yesterday I literally cried at my desk after she left our lunch. I then went home to lay in bed so she knew how bad she hurt me and so my staff didn't see me a mess. The gift that keeps on giving.

WOE, I'm saving any of my comments for tomorrow. Enjoy your night tonight. You are the eternal optimist and just maybe it's gonna work for you. I wish you a good evening with your W. CV

Just a note to let you know I'm thinking of you WOE. If I had anything I thought would be helpful at this time, I'd write it, but it isn't coming to me now. When I have something "brilliant" to post, I will.... LOL!

Here's hoping tonight was lovely for you.
SD

Thinking about you, (((WOE))))
Frags

CV, I do understand what you mean about not being sure if staying was right for you. And at some point we need to do some things for ourselves. I can say that staying until now was right for me. I don't regret the effort. At some point I may come to the conclusion that leaving will be right for me.

As 2long said I did do something for me yesterday. I told W this morning that I went overboard so we could look back at our 20th and remember that we did something nice as opposed to remembering why we didn't do anything for our 20th. She sort of agreed with that rationale. I didn't try to romance it up but made it more practical. This is simply reality and her and I both know it.

SD, I have no doubt something brilliant will come. But one difference that is now undeniable is that I'm not the only one unhappy. With me no longer prentending I'm OK it is hard for W to have the time of her life. I have definitely brought her down to my level of unhappiness. When I opened the 20 yr old bottle of wine she said I thought we would save that for our 25th but I realize we may not have a 25th. She no longer says this for shock value to hurt me but I think she is starting to realize it's very true. I consider this positive; that she knows we need some help or we're going to die a slow death.

I have dared her to file for divorce whenever she threatens that, so she no longer threatens. This is sad and love busting but I'm not near the push over I was before. Saturday is another hurdle with the wedding. It's an opportunity for me to really drop a bomb; and I will if that's how it unfolds.

I am still on her pool team and if the contact continues I will eventually quit. This will leave her further exposed and embarrassed. So I guess you can all guess that last night was not a smashing success. But I'm glad I did it and took the high road.

I think anybody following my story can sense the tremendous change in me lately and W also sees it.

WOE, there is something that I truly don't understand and I'm sure I've mentioned this to you before. Why is it that you think your situation will ever improve while your W still indulges herself with contact with the OM? And more importantly, why do you put up with it?

I know you are changing and have become stronger. This indirect approach that you use would be like Chinese water torture for me. Everything is about waiting to see what your W will or won't do. Will she go to the wedding if OM is there or not? If he's there will she respect you enough to leave or will she stay? If she stays then you will leave the pool team. If you leave the pool team will she be embarrassed or not? Will she care about you enough to quit also, or will she stay? You are hurt to your core, leave work, go home and lie in bed hoping she notices how down you are. WOE, my head is spinning here.

What would a post from me to you be without my fantasy conversation that you would have with your W? Here goes! "W, this isn't the M I want. I am miserable and want things to change. I love you and want to recover our M. First thing I need is for you to have NC with OM, FOREVER! Second thing is we need to counsel with Steve harley or go to MC. Are you in or are you out?"

My fear is that if you keep waiting for your W to do the right thing you will eventually lose all your love for her and at what price? Of course this is JMHO here and I'm probably full of sh**! I'm better today. Yesterday I hit a very low point on this recovery road. We went to MC and I let out what hasn't been working for me and H and I had a very honest heart to heart, which led to greater connection. That's hard to do, but the effort to be honest is worth it.

SD, how are you? I think of you often and hope things are going well for you! CV

CV, I saw SD posting consistently to someone called "weneedhelp". So aside from his popping in here he still seems to be active. Blessings to you SD for your continued altruism and tireless help.

CV, I have those conversations with my W almost every day. I have made her as miserable as me. And I have become as indifferent as her. I no longer say we should go to MC or Steve Harley etc. We have been down that path, and while I agree we need to revisit it I'm not pushing it. But the other morning she caught me checking her phone and I blew up screaming that I got her bill and she called him 15 times since I talked to him. I am frankly surprised that she still shamelessy pursues him. She told me he no longer returns her calls as a result of my call.

As for the wedding, I don't hope she leaves. I will be gone in a cab while she wonders if I'm still in the restroom. I won't give her the chance to be the martyr here or even the chance to do the right thing whatever that is. It's about me and protecting me. She seems to have no shame so I don't
know or care if she is embarrassed.

CV, I fight with her on an almost regular basis about this. She says something and if I even detect a hint of reference to OM, I go nuts. I don't know how else to respond these days because I have failed in all my efforts. This weekend will be interesting because I expect him to be at one of two events. On Sunday we are scheduled to go to a fundraising event for someone in the "league". Again I will excuse myself and not look back. I have had the conversations you are talking about. As you know I even got her to post so very briefly. I think you can see from what she said that she is not ready or willing to look in the mirror. So do I go to Plan B? I don't know. I just know that I don't hesitate to voice my opinion anymore. No more China Doll. If I have to leave the wedding and she questions it, I'll tell her that while she may not understand, I'm sure our children will. Recently I told her she didn't have the balls to divorce me when she threatened that for the 100th time. Sorry to be foul and angry.

To answer your question I KNOW my situation won't change while she is in contact. I'm just finally starting to adjust to this way of life. I am plan A'ing me these days and starting to let go.

I'm glad you are in MC and able to voice your problems and concerns. I also KNOW this is what I need to have happen. On a positive note W was watching Oprah and a story about a woman who blindsided her husband with thousands of dollars of debt got her to discuss gambling with me. She said the look on the mans face when his wife revealed the size of his debt reminded her of her surprise and pain when she was blindsided with gambling. You suggested that there might be some unfinished business there. And I'm willing to have those discussions with her but she just wants to accuse and not delve into. She goes through life blaming everyone else. But CV, I still love her very much. I still cling to the idea that we'll be OK.

{{{{{WOE}}}}} Please don't think that I believe I know what's best for you. I just know that I don't think I could live with what you have had to live with. I would actually like to see you seek out some strategic advice from some wiser ones than me here on MB.

This is what I see WOE. I think for yrs. you chose to wait for your W to become defogged because you have believed the EA is onesided. Whatever the truth is concerning that your W never did defog. You Plan Aed until it just got to be too much for you. You finally took action and called OM. That was a great step but obviously has made no difference. Now, forgive me for saying this, you appear to be sinking into the dysfunction yourself. I'm glad you are talking to your W, but I'm not sure it is talking. Sounds more like fighting about the hurt she continues to cause and your anger over it. Sounds like she continues to avoid facing herself.

Friend, all I can say is what I "think" I would do. I think I would once and for all draw the line in the sand. I would tell her that your M is in an extremely dysfunctional place. You both need help to get out of this hole. What you both have been doing just isn't working. You want to save your M and keep your family together, but you need help. I do believe you need professional help. I would ask your W what does she want. And this is the hard part, and I might be wrong here. That's why I'd like you to get more input from others here. If she won't take the steps to end her contact with OM and get professional help I think maybe Plan B might be a direction you should take. I hate writing that. I really do. Having a son like you beginning college I think of how devestating H and I seperating would be. I just hate seeing you continue to be disrespected and not taking a stand.

WOE, your W is not operating from a healthy place. Call it fog, call it emotionally disturbed, call it whatever. Could you have gotten over your gambling addiction without some form of intervention? I'm asking you to put your situation out there and get some serious feedback from people here. Remember the goal is to get your W out of the A and out of the fog, and to restore your M. Is what's going on here restoring your M? I want to see you both working on recovery, or at least you recovering yourself. Wishing you the best! CV

CV, I will take your advice and go to the board as a whole. I think I am recovering myself. I quit smoking on September 1st, cold turkey. I never really smoked prior to the A. I am also trying to exercise a little more. CV, something has definitely changed and I think my two girls are seeing and hearing more than they ever did before and that is not good.

You are right that I am becoming dysfunctional. You may not realize this but me on that one pool team is very important to her. If I just quit it will have a ripple effect as everyone knows everyone in this league. So that is a hand I can play to my advantage. In other words I could threaten to leave the team if the calls don't stop. That may stop the calls but then I still need to get us in counseling. Look for my big post to the general public in GQ. Thanks for your input.