Hi to you all

Haven't posted much recently. If there's anyone out there who remembers my situation (although anyone welcome to comment) ...

Access to H instant messenger (I have password) shows that OW is still on his contacts list <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />. She is online a lot. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I asked H (very calmly) why this was the case if he is maintaining NC. He said he didn't know - a bit defensive. I asked him why he would need to know when she was online, and why he would want her to know that he is online, if he doesn't plan to have (or allow) any contact. Again he didn't know, but response that she can't see when he comes online because he only ever goes on 'appearing offline'. He can still see her come online though.

He has said in MC that his way of coping/moving on is to 'close the box' on the past - NC, him getting over it, concentrating on fixing 'us'. This behaviour doesn't seem to support that perspective.

I asked him again what message he thinks her presence as an IM contact shows me. Not helping me to rebuild trust in him. Not reassuring me of NC (I have no real evidence that there has been any contact, and I have a lot of sleuthing options in place - not prepared to discuss, just in case he is reading - would be good if he was, but don't want to push this too hard).

Am I being unreasonable? Can/should I demand that he remove her from his contacts? Do you think that maintaining this option is an indication of possible desire to break NC?

How do I stay calm and discuss with him why he still maintains this 'possible' line of communication?

Any opinions, ASAP from both BS/WS perspective gratefully received. Thanks

unhappy_badger
(still in the thick of it, but not as unhappy as I was)

H is a teacher, A with co-worker. D-day in April, H left school, and states NC as of end July. Both of us nice holiday together, starting to feel a bit better. In recovery?

Unhappy,

I'm sorry, but there is something "fishy" there. And it smells!

When I went NC, not only did OM come off my IM contact list, but every IM program came off my computer.

I don't trust AT ALL OW being on his list.....

Sorry <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Thanks LIT

I feel the same (hence the message), but what do I do? How should I approach it? Can I make him remove her? Is it worth making him delete her if there is a reason that he wants her there - is it an indication that he doesn't really want to work on our M?

For me I think the key issue is what her being there means for him (which he won't/can't tell me) rather than her actual presence. I want him to be able to tell me why he can't break this link. How do I help him do that? (just communicate WHY. I'm not sure him just removing her is enough - I need to understand why he doesn't want to, or why he thinks it isn't important that he removes her.

Why does he feel the need to keep this option, and how do I square this with his statement that he wants to work on 'us'. How do I make him understand that this is really damaging my progress in trying to trust him again?

u_badger

Unhappy_badger,

I was thinking of you and I was wondering when you would send an update again. (I’ve sent you a message on your last thread, but I’m not sure if you have ever read it).

I think you have much reason to feel concerned about the fact that the OW is still on your H’s contact list and that her name appears on the screen when she is online. Even if he don’t have any direct contact with her, her name appearing on the screen and on his list is still a form of contact because every time he sees her name, she is in the front burner of his mind. Not good. This can hamper recovery for both you and your H and if he is still in withdrawl from her, it will hamper this withdrawl process too and prevent him from fully recover personally. I think your H gets some kind of “fix” every time see her name on the list or on the screen and this tells me that he still clings to the past and to the OW in some ways. Eventually it can tempt him to contact her again.

Unhappy_badger, I think you must talk with your H about this honestly and openly and explain to him in calm and loving way (but firmly and directly) how hurtful this behavior is to you and that you need him to do something about it. Of course you can’t demand him to do anything, but you can request him and stipulate your boundaries (and having the OW on his list etc. IS crossing YOUR personal boundaries - make this clear to him). I understand this is a very sensitive issue for you and if you think it will be difficult for you to stay calm, maybe you can write him a letter in stead.

Hope this has helped,

Blessings,
Suzet

Thanks Suzet

Your posts have always been really useful to me (sorry I failed to acknowledge one of your others). Things have been a bit better, and we did have a nice holiday together, but now we are back home some of the same issues we were dealing with are here again. Still in MC, but H told counsellor on Monday that he 'doesn't really think talking about it makes any difference'!

At least he has started his new job, in a new school away from OW, and seems to be enjoying it - even if it is quite a long commute until we are able to sell our house and move.

I will try to raise the issue of the IM contact for discussion - H hates it when I write notes to him! I will try to stay calm, but it's difficult for me to stay calm and reinforce my boundaries. I look at it now and realise that when I reinforced NC being an important boundary, I didn't specify that my version of NC meant removing her from IM, email contacts etc (ie removing the 'option' of contact as well as just stopping any actual contact). He hasn't contacted her by IM as far as I am aware (and I am very vigilant), so I guess he stillthinks he has maintained NC and not broken a boundary - and he has in one way.

I guess what I want is for him to realise and acknowledge my hurt, and do everything he can to help me with it, and reassure me he really wants to be with me. I know this is a lot to ask. I would just love it (and I have said this to him) if he actually WANTED to remove all trace of her from our lives - IM contacts, old emails, old computer files, photographs (he even keeps the ones of her that he took with MY camera!). At this point though he obviously doesn't want to get rid of all these things - and this just keeps the wound open for me, and batters my self esteem (rambling thoughts in my head - he really doesn't want me, if I leave him then he will go to her, he would really rather be with her ... etc).

Thanks again for all your support - I hope that I will be able to repay some of it to the group in the future.

unhappy_badger
(but not quite as unhappy as I was)

This was a long time coming for me and H. There were some things he recognized and changed, but other things he hasn't...

The IM was the first thing he completely took off the computers. But recently he joined an online community known for it's personals, and sought out girls. He has since deleted his account.

I can never ask him or demand him to do these things. It also is more helpful to me for him to do these things on his own.

I asked H, "What can you do to protect me from hurt?" And I asked over and over. My H at first grew very defensive, as if I was blaming him for feeling hurt. Or asking me what I wanted him to do. Let him answer without prompting.

I agree, I think there is something fishy.

My wife was involved in an online EA. They IM'ed back and forth pretty much all day via MSN messenger. For the first few weeks after d-day, but AFTER he told her not to come to live with him, their contact dwindled a lot...and I made it very clear how much it hurt that she was in contact with him at all.

But, once she made the choice to reconcile with me one of the very first steps was removing MSN messenger from all of our computers. (Which is no easy task, I can tell you) And she was fine with it...she hated the loss of her "friendship" with him, but she agreed that we needed to remove the temptation to contact or be contacted by him.

We still had issues with email contact for a few more weeks after that, but that too finally ended when I raised it as a major concern.

Personally, I think you should mark a clear boundary here. He's agreed to reconcile with you...so he needs to take ALL of the steps needed to make that happen and to rebuild your marriage...and that includes removing the POSSIBILITY of contact.

unhappybadger, I agree with the excellent advice you have recieved and would add that you might want to watch your back. I would suggest putting a keylogger on your computer to see what he is doing. If he is doing nothing, it will go a long way in restoring trust in your marriage if you can see for yourself, independently, that he is being faithful.

Melody

Thanks for this - consider back being well and truly watched (probably too much for my own sanity, but that's another issue ... no doubt we'll come on to that!)

I'd make a great spy. Maybe a new career move! It's amazing what you can find out if you want to (but scary too what others might be able to find out).

u_badger

good girl! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

unhappy: You asked "why" he kept the contact in his IM list. To a WS, the OP is like a life line. A WS doesn't know if you will be able to survive without OP.

Basically, a WS wants to reach out to OP every time they are stressed. A BS is in a catch-22. The more he/she complains about OP, the more likely WS is try to reach out to her.

I think the best approach is simply to get WS to agree to get rid of everything assoicated with OP, and then not make a big deal out of it when you find something that does, but simply go back to the "you agreed to get rid of everything that reminds you/us of OP, so let's get rid of it."

I'm with Suzet. I actually found it empowering to remove FOM from my IM contact list, along with deleting any files that might reference him. Took him out of my address book, too, and blocked/filtered his e-mail addys. He creeps into my mind enough; last thing I needed were additional reminders of his existance.

I still have the IM on my laptop, though, because I use it to correspond with other people, mainly my sister.

Thank you - all of you

You have really all confirmed what I think I already believed - she should go from the list (and I'd like her to go in terms of emails, files and photographs etc) too.

But I think it would be much more valuable to our recovery if H was responsible for doing this, and wanted to do this himself. So how do I broach this with him? How do I encourage him to want to do this for him/me/us? I don't want to break what has felt like a challenging Plan A with an unreasonable demand.

Any practical tips from those more experienced?

u_badger

Still here! But I could do with some more advice, or thoughts ...

A bit of a rant coming I fear ...

I spoke very calmly to H and asked again why he feels the need to keep OW as a contact in IM, and why he isn't able to just get rid of all the things in our house that are connected with her (gifts, photographs of her he took with my camera). I stayed calm. I explained how disrespectful and hurtful I found these things (and his attitude towards holding onto them), and how inconsistent, given that his approach to him getting over the A is to 'put the lid on the box' and try to forget that it ever happened.

His response was that he hated being backed into a corner. I couldn't make him do anything - and I shouldn't try, because that just made him more resistant. He said getting rid of these things was something that he needed to do himself, in his own time to get over the A (but how long?). I shouldn't keep going on about it (have mentioned it twice). He says he's sorry it hurts me (but no mention of doing anything about it because of this - this is entirely his call, and in his own time, irrespective of my feelings).

I just don't buy it. He's away at the moment, and I know I could just get rid of all these things, but I know that isn't the answer.

Anyone have any other ideas about how I should approach this - any other logical argument I have overlooked? I'm just so tired of being surrounded by things that constantly remind me of her (not helped by the fact that I work at home, so I'm surrounded by these reminders most of the time).

This whole situation just makes me seriously doubt whether he is really committed to recovery at all. I've been reading a lot of the threads about forgiveness lately, and really want to forgive, but I think that him keeping hold of these things is a big hurdle for me - it just goes against the idea of his having any remorse for what he has done - even though he SAYS he is sorry. His actions just don't seem to match up.

I love the man dearly, and want to have a happy marriage again, but I just don't know how long I can deal with evidence of her still being there between us.

Any practical ideas anyone? I just don't know what to do or say anymore, and I'm so tired of hurting.


unhappy_badger

Hi unhappy badger,
I would probably be the wrong one to talk to, because I tore pictures up of mil and o/w. Also pictures of w/h and mil that were taken by mil.
Didn't want the memories, or the reminder and didn't care what w/h said or wanted.
One of my weaker moments of anger.

Hi Badger,

This must be a difficult situation for you, and you sound like you are really trying hard. I agree with what you said about doubting his commitment to recovery if he doesn't make an effort to understand this. I would doubt his commitment too.

I think from what you described there is no need to tell him about how you feel about him keeping those things again. I think he knows. Maybe just wait for a while and observe what he does.

If he still does nothing, then I would say to him what you just said, that you are having grave doubts about the M because of his insensitivity to your feelings over the A and his avoidance of discussing it (if this is what you think/feel). Then maybe wait and see again. The ball is really in his court now, as I see it.

kd

This is exactly what I want to do, but part of me holds back because I want to see H WANT to do this for himself. If I go round trying to do all the fixing of our M then I might not leave anything left for H to show me that he wants to fix it ...

What was the reaction by the way - did it do the trick?

u_badger

UB,

U need to stop loving him as he is. Let him know that if he can't help you heal then you will find a better way to help you heal. Remove him from the decision making factor. The WS will try to control. That is what WS' do.

If he feels he is in a corner, let him know he is in a corner but he needs to get our of your corner because he is backing up on top of your healing. He is not helping you heal but backing up into you. Let him know his actions are smothering you. Then ask, is that his intent?

See you need to learn to phrase your questions in a way that he can answer then without thinking about himself. Don't focus on love. You can't possibly love a WS. NO one really does. The one we love is the lost soul of our spouse. The aliens need to have a bitter taste put into their mouths so they will spit back our spouses. In other words, our spouses have to fight their way back to the family.

JMHO,
L.

Hi Orchid

I've read lots of your posts on other threads, and am very grateful for your advice - I've seen it help lots of other people, but I'm not sure I get exactly what you mean here? What course of action are you suggesting I should take exactly?

I have been thinking about removing myself to my parents' house for a while - until he has sorted this. Kind of like a plan B I guess.

I want to be supportive, and if he says he will do it but he needs time I want to trust him and give him some time(but not an infinite amount) , but at the same time, I want to be able to signal to him that the current situation is not ok for me, and that I don't want to just sit around waiting for him to get rid of all the evidence of her - I respect myself and my feelings more than that. Is this what you were getting at?

can you clarify things in more practical steps?

thanks

u_badger

Orchid

I think I took your advice.

On Monday I had to work away from home, until today. Before I set off I sent H an email which explained my two main issues - kind of like my plan B requirements - his lack of communication with me, and his keeping of OW as an IM contact, and photographs of her/gifts etc. I said that I wanted him to have time to think about these things, and that I would like to discuss them when i returned.

In the meantime, last night, I'm hit by a bombshell - an email from her to him (that I intercepted) saying "thanks for the letter, you sounded down, if you ever want to talk ... Love you, OW".

Now what? There has been no evidence of any contact since end of July - when we agreed on NC, and he told her very bluntly that this was the situation on the phone, while I was there.

He has obviously written to her (aware that i watch his email). She has emailed back, and he has responded to her email.

How do I start this conversation? Opinions re going to plan B? We felt like we were doing reasonably well, if a bit stalled ...

HELP - don't know what to do. H home soon.

unhappy_badger