OK, first I know most of us here LOVE SF! Me 2!!

And, I know that there are widely varying viewpoints on when/where is appropriate, before marriage, during dating, during engagement, etc.

But let's just focus on what happens in a typical dating relationship when sex enters in, OK? We're not talking about a couple 2 nights before their wedding...We're not talking about a 1 night stand first date...We're talking about a typical couple that is dating for a month or two or more.

Then the issue of sex comes up. What happens when it is introduced into a typical dating relationship?

Here are some starter thought-provokers:

What happens to honesty?
What happens to emotional intimacy?
What happens to self-esteem?
What happens to the felt need for commitment?
What happens to one's conscience?
What happens to the level of conversation in a relationship?
What happens to the issue of self-determination & control?
What happens to your willingness to say "no"?
What happens to your personal boundaries?
What happens to your divorce recovery?
What happens to your personal emotional growth?

I'm sure there is much more, but these ought to start us up. I'm also confident this is going to be one interesting post to see unfold. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks in advance,
High Flight

I've only got a minute here, but wanted to address a couple of issues.

I, too, think sex is a wonderful thing, which I personally would only reserve for an exclusive, heading to the altar, type of relationship.

That being said, I do believe that it has an affect on many areas of the relationship. For lack of a better example, I would say that introducing sex too early into a realtionship stunts the growth of many key areas that could include honesty and communication. And once the relationship has made the leap to sex, it's very hard to go back and try to pick up those things.

To me the biggie here is "divorce" recovery. Not that simply the act of sex itself hurts. But if I person is grieving a divorce and get into a relationship that includes sex, IMHO, this masks a persons healing and quite frankly emotional health putting their "true" recovery on the back burner. I further believe that evidence of that "lack of recovery" or "healing" will prevail in the relationship and rather than natural grieving to get over something, you have to make a decision to go through recovery.

There is no rreal answer to your question, since there are as many answers as there are people. The answer will be different for each of us. A agree that sexualizing a relationship too soon endangers it. Other people wait too long. Some people are always going to have problems as soon as sex enters the picture because they lack the emotional intelligence and/or maturity to deal with the issues it raises.

This issue is also age-dependant. Sex just isn't so big a deal for older people. Sex is sex and one comes to a point in life when it simply isn't the emotional need that it once was. This allows you to prevent it from clouding more important issues.

I have a feeling you're about to see some real answers... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And you need to speak with some of the "Older People" I know before you conclude it's not so big a deal for them!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I will humbly disagree. And fundamentally disagree. Sex is NOT just sex.

Regards,
High Flight

I like what you're saying here. Rings true in my heart as well. Tell me what you mean with your last statement: rather than natural healing...you make a decision to go through recovery???

Thanks,
High Flight

Sex can help and hurt any relationship....it's a matter of gut feeling and instinct. I don't believe the theory of heading to the alter is a fine time to start having sexual relations...I think when the two of you mutually agree to go there then go for it!! What works for one isn't necessarily going to work for another. Who's to say right from wrong in this circumstance? I personally go with the gut...when I feel it's right and he agrees...then it happens..and vice versa..when I'm not feeling it..it ain't gonna happen no way no how.

I am one of those older people, HF. All my friends are older people. Every single one of us feels the same way. We enjoy sex as much as the next person, but it is not the burning passion that it was when we were younger. It isn't supposed to be. Maybe you cannot understand this now, but you will one day.

There are as many answers to the question as there are people on the planet. Every person and every relationship is unique. One of the main reasons that our relationships get into trouble is because we try to apply other's general ideas to a our unique situation. What works for you and you SO, probably won't work for me and mine. We have to find answers that work for us and sex is only one question. Haven't you noticed that one of the primary reasons so many of us are here is because of an exagerrated emphaisis on sex?

High Flight,

I think I understand what Check is saying and I think that the answer does depend on one’s age, but also the circumstances of their marital breakup and their self esteem.

I would like to think that, in general, one’s self esteem increases as a person gets older and has had the time for and experience of personal growth. The circumstances of a divorce, especially if their ex cheated and left them for another, will impact this sense of self esteem, but this was not my experience, so I go on what I’ve read here and could imagine myself. But, in general, with greater emotional growth, a person should have a better sense of what bringing sex into a relationship will entail for them emotionally, both as an individual and as a couple.

What happens to honesty?
What happens to emotional intimacy?

These should increase, if both people have similar views that bringing sex into a relationship takes it to a higher level of commitment. But with the increase in emotional commitment comes the responsibility of care.

What happens to self-esteem?

Should go up, right? Sure, you’ve increased the risk of having your mate hurt you because you are more vulnerable, but with risk comes reward.

What happens to one's conscience?

Presumably, we are talking about adults who’ve been married and know about the role of sex in a healthy relationship. By this time, if you know yourself well enough and feel your conscience will bother you, don’t do it.

As to the other questions, perhaps its just me and my background, but I think this may be a bit too much navel gazing about sex, which increases the likelihood of ruining it by burdening it with all this baggage. These are questions I asked myself when I considered dating again and contemplating falling in love again, not necessarily the sex part. If I haven’t solved these issues by the time sex comes up, it’s a bit late, IMHO.

Interesting to see others responses. By the way, High Flight, you posed the questions and critiqued Check’s answer but didn’t provide your own thoughts. What do you think?

See, it really depends. If the sex is that kind that gives you an orgasm when you think of it the next day, well, that can really jump start a relationship. If the sex was a complete flop where you are just praying to get it over with, then, the relationship is going to end sooner than later.

[color:"blue"] GG [/color]
I had just gulped my drink when I read your response...now there is water all over my keyboard! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

This is a good thought-provoking thread. I want to contemplate my response more before I post.

I’d love to expand on what I mean. I believe that it is widely accepted that one will go through and must go through a natural healing process after the loss of a spouse whether it be due to death or divorce. Add to that the outside circumstances surrounding the loss, whether it be infidelity or abuse or whatever, and there truly can be a lot of external issues to deal with before dealing with all the internal issues surrounding the loss.

Below, I believe you’ll find the standard accepted model of the grieving process:

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

Steps 4 and 5 are where I’m going to place my emphasis. I believe that completing steps 4 and 5 are instrumental in having a successful relationship. Let’s look at them individually for just a moment:

4. Depression. This is the hopeless phase where anger, betrayal, resentments, and grief dwell. People my focus their grief inward and begin hating themselves, they may drink or do drugs as a means to cope. Or what I find more likely is that they date and engage in casual sex in an attempt to feel “normal” again.

5. Acceptance. This is when healing is completing, you notice that I didn’t say it was complete. In very humble opinion Step 5 is an action step. This is where one let’s go of the anger and bitterness towards others, as well as any towards themselves. This is where we have forgiveness.

My belief is that, at some point, you will have to go through all these steps. Now when you introduce a relationship in during Step 4, which a lot of people do, that displaces some of that anger and resentment. I’ve also believe that left undealt with that it then seeps out slowly and has an impact on how we deal with our partner. And who gets the brunt of our acting out, yes the one we love whether they deserve it or not.

So back to my statement, this is the point at which either a second relationship will fail, be miserable, or a person will make the decision to work through their grieving process towards recovery. It’s why most mental health people, after getting someone out of immediate danger if present, then go back and start looking for “unfinished” business in their lives. What they’ve masked or replaced.

That being said, do I believe that dating early dooms someone for failure, absolutely not. Especially if done with a keen awareness of self, where you are at in the process, a willing partner, and an effort to seek the end on Step 5. But along with that ray of hope there is also a cloud of negativity and that is how capable of choosing a good partner is someone going through depression? It’s an interesting thought and I have seen basic scenario’s:

1. They aren’t capable and latch on to whatever they can get and ride it for whatever it’s worth. Typically coming out at the end worse for the wear and now working through grieving the loss of relationship A and beginning the grieving of relationship B. And heck, they may even end up getting healthy through this relationship then look at who they are dating and say WTF am I doing with this loser.

2. They do have an awareness of self and see qualities in a partner that will not only help them through their process but also be a stellar mate when said process is complete. They are transparently open and honest with their partner and themselves through the early stage of the relationship which in of itself breeds an understanding of each other that is crucial in maintaining a healthy relationship. They come out in the end as a strong healthy person to find that they have a strong healthy relationship based on openness, willingness, and honesty.

I will say that option 2, as presented above, is what I believe to be not the norm but the exception. I, myself, got stuck on #4 of the grieving process for over 2 years. Once I plowed through it, step #5 came quickly and was welcomed. Had I chose to get involved in a relationship during that 2 year period, I firmly believe that I would either be grieving the loss of another relationship or in an extremely unhealthy relationship.

In an ideal world, we wouldn’t have to deal with this, but other than that people would wait till they were done grieving before venturing back out. But that’s not reality and is not often practiced. Not to speak for my lovely wife, who also posts on these boards, but I think she could expand on the need to finish grieving as well as how clouded ones vision can become in a ‘rebound’ style relationship.

I too laughed when I read GG's response, and it is a very appropriate one. I've been in both.

And with LH's 1 & 2 I thought, what about 1.5 as defined below:
1.5 They do have an awareness of self but are afraid they will make poor choices again. They see qualities in a partner that will fill some ENs but don't view this person as a stellar mate but more as a transitional person (to help in their healing).

Now, I know this sounds like a user, but if you are clear and communicate, it's possible to have fun with someone who will not be your life partner, particularly if you can learn from the experience.

Avondale, I just couldn't resist. Luckily you were only drinking water! I wouldn't want to be responsible for a sticky keyboard.

Newly, are you around this evening? I need to talk off-board! Unfortunately, STBX checks my posts so I can't ask for insight and advice about the child support.

I dated quite a bit after divorcing my husband. He was my first boyfriend. In three instances, sex entered my relationships and I am regretful. I was marriage-minded and the timing of sex in the relationship -- too soon -- interfered with the question "is he husband material?" In two relationships, the sex was very, very good. In my head I knew that the relationship wouldn't work for other reasons, but the physical intimacy kept me coming back and the breakups were that much more painful for me because of it. In the third case he was a really neat guy and probably a good fit for me and my life, but the passion bombed, thanks to too much alcohol, and we could never get the dating friendship back on track after that. We ruined a good opportunity to really get to know each other. In the case of Hubby, he was a friend for over a year before we ever dated. I really knew him before sex got in the way. So, in my experience, sex can get in the way of getting to know a new friend. It can also keep a doomed relationship going longer than it should. I guess it all depends on your goal, but since this is MB, I assume you are all marriage-minded.

Mrs. W8ing

(((Newly)))

I think that's wonderful if someone is able to apply it and follow it while working through the process towards healing. My biggest problem with all the scenario's is first the ability of someone to be honest with themselves while in a relationship getting their needs met; second, the focus to heal while dancing horizontally between the sheets; and third "LIFE". Life happens especially if you have kids and before you know it you turn around and it's been 4 years and you are still stuck on stupid.

IMVHO healing or shall we say recovery is a choice. Yes, I believe that nature is going to guide us through it but we can either choose to actively heal by dealing with all the issues at hand, passively heal by allowing nature to run it course interupting it at various times with our whims, or quite frankly we can choose not to heal (I think my X MIL chose not to heal).

But here's the thing, did you take a class in "healing" in High School? or College? More than likely not. Something so common and useful to the masses and yet many of us don't know how to approach it. There's no great mystery in how to accomplish it, yet, I for one had no idea how to do it.

I, personally, view the old saying of "time heals all wounds" as total BS. I think people can actively choose to go through the process, get the work done and receive the rewards. There are 10 and 12 step programs out there widely available for this or that addiction and/or death but I haven't seen one for divorce, especially for the BS. In the end, adapting a 12 step program similar to the one used by addicts, is what helped me heal and get past the "unhealthy" behaviours I was carrying as a result of the loss of my marriage.

You got it wiseguy. When men reach middle age, a change comes over us. In some ways the very idea of "self esteem" seems a bit silly. You become comfortable with yourself and develop an inner peace. Much of what you once thought was important, you now know doesn't matter at all. You look back over your life at the things you've done and think "wow, was that stupid or what?" Sex really is one of these things. You look back at all the dumb things you did and all the mistakes you made for the sake of sex and laugh at yourself. And you know what? Sex is actually better at 45 than it is at 25. This is due in part because you are more experienced and approach sex differently, but also because you don't jones for it as much anymore. So you tend to keep it in perspective and savor it when you have it. When you don't have it? Well, that's okay, too. So it is much easier to develop a relationship with a woman without the sex part getting in the way too soon.

LostHusband, your statement about time heals all wounds is sooooo true! It takes more than time. It takes choice and action.

LH, I thought this was our healing class and you were the leader.
Along with the healing class, make sure that "forgiveness" makes the curriculum too. But really, we all should have learned this in our FOO's if they had been healthy.
I know my current R is not right for me, and I'm not for him either. For now, it's easy and we both treat each other better than we've been treated before. For now, that's my lesson.

I have a friend and her BF who can't imagine being in a R which will lead nowhere. Each of them has taken quite a bit of time and energy to heal. We all come from different paths and need different ways to heal. I know that this R is teaching me that there are some things I will not live without in a life partner (and my current BF is not capable of providing these). But I don't feel like I am wasting my time, I am exploring myself and my needs in other ways, in a safe manner.

GG, school open house tonight so call after 9 pm. I'm still laughing about your comments.

Actually if you were paying attention you'd have seen it was part of the 5th step.....lol.... Geez, can you tell that I have a little passion in the arena of personal healing?

Great discussion here.

Overall, there is definitely a variety of answers, and a variety of circumstances. A lot depends on the emotional health of the parties involved, AND on the communication and expectations. If the emotional health is there, and lots of communication takes place, and if the expectations are equal, then there should be no harm done, and it can be a positive aspect of the relationship.

If it's introduced too early, or if it's favored more (or only) by one person, or if the wrong reasons (excuses) are used to AVOID it for too long, it can definitely cause problems.

OOOH, Faith, what a good point. Someone who avoids sex for the wrong reasons would be a red flag for me. Since sex is so high up on my list, I wouldn't dare marry again without knowing if we were sexually compatible. Think of all the spouses who married people who don't enjoy sex!