I'm asking for the board to give me my case one more try. Perhaps advice you have given in the past will look more palatable given my new perspective. I will start with a brief recap of the last 4 years.

W had ONS with member of a pool league and continues with regular phone calls to OM. She has left that team but continues in the same league. We have counselled with Steve Harley, I have gone to IC and I have gone to MC by myself. All of these professional efforts ceased well over a year ago. Now I have reached a level of apathy and indifference that rivals wife's. I have fought and fought about the continued contact but never gone to Plan B and continue to be reluctant. But it is becoming clear to both of us that our marriage is in real trouble. I think until I got to this point recently I was the only one who knew we were in trouble. Now I think she realizes it. So that fact may open her up to some new or old suggestions. Consider I have gotten her to post here recently though I don't think she'll come back.

I am happy to provide additional information but don't want to bore those have followed my lack of movement for all these years. I am attending a wedding this weekend that OM may attend as well as a fundraising event that might include him. My intention is to excuse myself from either or both events should he turn up. But this weekend isn't my problem but rather the bigger picture. I really appreciate any help.

WOE (formerly Walking On Eggs)

WOE,

I am wondering if the reason for the continued C is that he is meeting an EN for her. Maybe a particular one?

Is the C out in the open, meaning is she upfront with you about it?

I have been following your other thread.

Do you want routine MB advice like Plan B ???? Or, are you open to more radical ideas?

I sense you are nearing the end of your rope. You are becoming vulnerable yourself.

She's probably reading here ... so any chance of a sneak attack on the EA is likely void.

nay-nay, she is very discreet about the contact because I force her to be. In other words when she mentions that she spoke to him, in my calmest voice I tell her how hurtful this is. But again and again she will try to justify it and say its just "chit chat". And again my reply will send her back underground. So round and round we go. The EN being met would seemingly be Admiration. OM is a loser on all levels. The other thing that TooMuchCoffeeMan had told me was that woman will try to maintain a connection to a former lover. I believe that was a factor for a long time but not the motivator anymore.

Pep, I'm ready for some radical advice. I appreciate you following my other thread. You then have a good idea of where I'm at. Sometimes when your living it, it doesn't seem as crazy as it really is.

Also, I am positive she doesn't read here. Would be very interested to hear your idea of a sneak attack. I think I am getting ready to take more risks. To quote the Cheese book, "I'm not afraid anymore". Thanks WOE

.... at the same time .... walk toward her

gently take her hand and place it over your heart and say...

"I hurt right here every time to bring another man between us"

then look her right in the eyes

wait
wait
wait

.... say nothing more

if she tries to give you the "It's only chit chat, it should not hurt you" blah blah blah

you again hold her hand over your heart and repeat exactly word for word what you already said

"I hurt right here every time you bring another man between us."

look her in the eyes .... and don't say anything else

and repeat it again if necessary

If she asks "WHY does this innocent call hurt you?"
or
"You are too posessive."

or anything else that deflects away from YOUR HURTING HEART

you repeat the phrase with her hand over your heart like a broken record

Let us know what happends.

Pep, that's great stuff. It doesn't seem the least bit disrespectful and it gets the point across in a loving matter. Very cool. Tonight she invited me to join her for a parents back to school night so it's not all bad. Of course I'll go.

I'll let you know what happens next.

WOE:

Maybe sometime before you lose interest, maybe sometime after you lose interest, your W will realize that she starts all over with "recovery", such as this is not, whenever she has any contact, or even any warm THOUGHT of the OM.

My W realized this the other day. When she did, I was able 2 talk frankly and objectively about how her affection has been divided and diluted for the past 15 years. Never mind how it affects me (other than she needs 2 consider the possibility that I might remove myself from the equation at any time), I told her she needs 2 think about how that has affected her.

She at least says she realizes these things, and that she sees that we can only go "up" from here.

But once again, Actions Speak, Words Don't... ...and even actions take time 2 come in2 focus.

-ol' 2long

2, you have verbalized what I intuitively knew. I have been missing affection so badly for the last 5 years. It doesn't seem macho enough to even say that to W. But if you don't have it you miss it. Like you I am starting to realize that she is probably in one pain than I. I am often tempted to say to her "back here on earth etc." but I don't want to love bust. But I feel like she has simply built herself another planet to rationalize all that she has to rationalize.

Fast forward to tomorrow. My thinking is to ask her this evening if OM will be at the wedding because I don't want to have a lot of drama tomorrow if it can be avoided. If I don't add the drama part she will simply say "I don't know if he'll be there" which gets her off the hook and leaves me in an uneviable position. I have to believe she knows if he'll be there. However if she maintains ignorance I am prepared to walk out of the wedding and hail a cab. I would be receptive to anyone's suggestions on how best to handle this one.

If it comes to this .... *sigh* what a choice ....

Afterwards.... whenever anyone asks you why you left you answer 100% honestly and completely

"My wife and (name) had an affair, and may still be having an affair. I will not be in the same room with OM."

BTW....

I'd take the car and let HER pay for the cab ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Pep, I actually created this mess by allowing contact to continue in the beginning. That's when I had some power but like most BS's was powerless. So now that I'm back on my feet I guess I will be able to deal with this without the drama. And it does give me an opportunity. And sometimes I need remind myself of that. Just like 2long's post demonstrates. The WS is also struggling and maybe ripe for these type of conversations. I have a friend/customer who is in a 5 year A. He tells me he envies me, because I KNOW what I want. I think this must be the dilema of the WS.

I'll follow your suggestions on all fronts depending on what opportunities present themselves. And I will report back Monday on how I handled. Thanks for following.

WOE

Have you ever made a list to yourself of things of which you are certain?

I did this after D-day. At first, my list said stuff like

"I don't want to be married to a cheater."

after I read it aloud to myself I reworded it to say

"I am certain I will not remain married to a cheater."

Things you are certain you can promise to yourself.

I think it's pretty important to dive deep into yourself and pull out the issues you have no intention of negotiating ... AKA your bottom line .... know yourself and your bottom line

otherwise

you stand for nothing and you tolerate mistreatment

ugh

I mean LOOK AT THIS

[color:"red"]d-day 2-28-02[/color]

But you tolerate crumbs for a very long time !!!!

I don't envy you .... I am trying to understand you.

WOE, I'm glad you did the general post and are getting advice from others here. I can't speak for Pep but I think she and I are saying similar things to you. Pep wrote: "I think it's pretty important to dive deep into yourself and pull out the issues you have no intention of negotiating ... AKA your bottom line .... know yourself and your bottom line"

I have told you many times to get clear about what it is you want. Maybe I should have said know what you absolutely don't want. My gut feeling is this, and I definitely could be way wrong. If you were to take a real stand regarding your W's A I don't think it would take her long to come around. However, if she decided she just won't give up the OM and work on your M, then what? On 2/28/06 it will be 4 yrs. of these "crumbs" you've been getting from your W. You do have some choices. You can decide it's OK with you to accept this life of crumbs. You could immediately Plan B and see what happens. You could even Plan D. So far in the last 3 yrs., 6 months you have only gone with the "crumb choice".

Pep's right! Find out what your bottom line is so you can work from a place of real strength. CV

otherwise

Pep, I don't envy me either but it's certainly preferable to what I see as the other side. Here's some things you may or may not know that I see as relevant.

W is stay at home with no income. She is an excellent mother and has a fragile ego. Conversely I'm fairly self assured. I have hurt her with the gambling through the years. I sympathize too much with her plight rather than simply put more energy into trying to pull her out of it.

I have tolerated too much for too long all in the name of love. After d-day I would occassionally have OM in my home while I pretended I didn't know about ONS. That went on for about 18 mos. after d-day when I finally realized she wasn't getting over him. This was in a misguided attempt to protect her reputation. That concern is gone.

So I drew the line in the sand about contact for me 2 years ago. She only left that team about 10 months ago. So that was major that she quit the team that included OM. She did this on her own. But the phone calls never stopped AND more telling is the marriage never improved. In fact the opposite; it continues to disintegrate as my patience has elapsed. It sounds like I may dodge the bullet tomorrow as I get the idea we won't know anyone but the groom. So that's fine but it doesn't advance my cause.

She considers me a good father, good friend and fun person to be with. What other info would you like? I know I have been manipulated too long and I know consider her motives more closely. And I do still respect her and view my situation very similar to 2long's. My W's empithany may not be far behind.

Pep:

"I mean LOOK AT THIS

d-day 2-28-02 "

It could be worse, you know?

d-day 1-18-2002


I no longer think that time means much of anything. Rewording Eckhart Tolle's "The Power of Now", 'the past and fu2re don't exist except in our memories and imaginations. There is only now.'

I needed 2 focus on me, now, in order 2 get 2 a level of detachment - with love (though sometimes I don't feel all that loving) - that my W would even notice my depar2re might be imminent. Yep. I think that her epiphanies of late have all been direct responses 2 signs that I was ready 2 throw in the towel (only I wasn't ready for that kind of metaphor, more like I was ready 2 put a stop 2 this particular drama play).

She had her epiphany about not wanting 2 live spitefully after I burned my CACA membership card and called her "bluff" regarding the mediator appointment and had us meet with him. She had her epiphany about the insanity of dividing her affections the way she has for 15 years because I told her I didn't think RM's decision 2 marry his GF meant anything, because he doesn't respect marriage.

Both times, I said nothing particularly profound (in my view) that I hadn't said many times in one form or another. What was different is that I was entirely detached from the drama play. And because I was detached, but I still love her, I didn't LB at all (I don't think, at least).

I think it was the change in my tone and my resolve evident in my new behavior that served as the catalyst for her epiphanies (though I will cheerfully give her credit for having them - their "hers" for her).

-ol' 2long

CV, just saw your post. Thanks for pointing me in this direction. I agree with the idea that I do hold all the keys. If I Plan B'd it would only be necessary for 10 minutes. D is not really a consideration for either of us anymore. At one time she would have left. But not near that foggy anymore. Anyway gotta go. Have a great weekend.

WOE

WOE..

Wow...the only difference between your case and mine is you know...I did not know about wife having a PA. I DID KNOW she had an "inappropiate relationship" (an EA- I did not know what taht was until MB) AFTER the PA. I basically told her "not at my house"...and there would be issues if I ever saw him again...and for 5 years my marriage imploded....just when I did not think it could get worse...it did. I was soooo lonely...I confessed to my W that I longed for an affair! I really did! I had no one in mind I just longed for someone to care about me! I did not stray. I did not know my wife had both physically and emotionally.

When she finally confessed to her PA I assumed it was her EA...or at the same time I had finally accpeted how vulnerable I had become...and I was WAY WRONG...my W had her affair BEFORE she asked for the divorce, my nightmare of a marriage was getting worse after the affair ended!!

Look I went as far as a divorce...it was brutal..I lost 70 pounds, no sleep...it was awful...she decided to try out her old EA for an PA...and although it crushed me...I knew it was doomed and just went dark...and after time she came around...

WOE..at this point you need to decide what is good for WOE.......I feel for you...I have been there....Did I love my XW..absolutely...but I accpepted it for what it was..her divorce and I was moving on..moved on to the point that I was dating exclusively one person...but the one person KNEW how I felt about XW....so I ended it

look at PA date and D-day date on my sig line...it was awful...and I know I'd never ever do it again!!! Best of luck...

edited for spelling and to clarify....my situation is confusing....even to me sometimes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />