The thing is a close significant other, or a spouse, can tell if you've had a sexual relationship with someone. My STBX was amazed I knew he had had sex with two of the women he was friends with. That kind of intimacy cannot be easily destroyed. So you really need to be picky about it.

As to is there anything more than like wham bam, there'd better be. After all FWB implies both parties get benefits, not just the men. Personally, I enjoy the seduction.

As to your question, AGG, it's one I asked myself each time. My first case, I was still in love with the man. It took me years of heart ache to get over him simply because we remained friends with occassional benefits. So, that doesn't count.

In the second place, I'm sure we had a relationship even though we never fell in love or were even infatuated. Funny thing is, he knew me better and liked the real me better than others I had dated and been infatuated with.

Check,

I hope I am wrong, but I get the impression that you perceive my questions as criticism or an attack. If so, I want to assure you that they are not - I am just truly curious about the distinction between FWB and a BF/GF. I had the same questions as Drita - who pays for "dates", do you have keys to each other's places, etc?

What you are describing in your FWB relationship really sounds to me like a normal BF/GF relationship.

What is different?

AGG

Again, I will say that you and your FWB seem to have a good arrangement that works well for you. I only throw my thoughts in because, like I said, if you and I hooked up and I saw FWB at a BBQ and you had never told me and I figured it out, I would feel...not so much jealousy, but I guess the word would be betrayal. This is just me. And I guess, with that *I* would need the psychological counseling, right? No, I don't think so, but I am a very strong, self assured woman, and I would still be hurt by my H for not being upfront about the relationship.
I don't want the laundry list, or the list of names, but if there is a possibility that I'm going to run into someone he's um, uh, "done", I'd like to know. (Again, just me!)

Dumping Dating vs FWB-BIG difference to me! Are you saying that cutting off the FWB with your dear friend would be the same as someone you dated 3 or 4 times?

And I'm with ya on the same-sex friend thing! That ain't no lesson! Teach me something else!

Now, without being too informative, can you answer my questions about din-din, sleep overs, a key to your place, etc.?
Inquiring minds want to know!

Radical Honesty, as defined by the creators of this site, does include details of all past relationships and a complete sexual history. It's done for a reason, so that one partner can intimately know their partner. One person in life who knows everything about you, armed with that knowledge of each other, you become interwoven each with a great understanding of each other.....

Secrets are nothing more than premeditated stumbling blocks to a marriage....

Good heavens, I'm in trouble then! My younger years were very busy!
Thanks Lost! I'm with ya!

LostHusband wrote:
"I'm glad that didn't work out, it truly would have been like feeding a cracker to a starving man. Now I sit at the table and feast with a beautiful wife".

Outstanding!!! What a wonderful statement!

Karona

Oh, AGG, I didn't think you were criticizing. About the who pays thing. We both do. I make like three times the money she does and this isn't a cheap city to live in and she has to budget her money carefully. So usually, I pick up the tab, especially at an expensive restaurant.

I know what the creators of this site say, LH. While I think the Harley's have some excellent stuff here, they are not 100% correct in some of their ideas. This is one where every martial an psychotherapist I've ever met or read is in complete disagreement with them. Not talking about past sexual experiences is not a betrayal, it is not keeping secrets, and it will not have an adverse affect on a marriage. On the other hand, going into too much detail about your past sexual experiences most assuredly can. Were my wife to ask me if I'd had sex with a given woman I would answer honestly. I have nothing to hide, but the details my past sexual experiences are none of her business, just as hers are none of mine. To demand these details is disrespectful. If I had sex with Sarah last week and didn't tell my wife, I'm keeping a secret. If I had sex with ASarah four years before my marriage and I don't mention it to my wife, I am not keeping a secret. ItSomeone will have to come up with something a lot more substantive than "Harley says so" to convince me that full disclosures of past sexual relationsips will increase intimacy. Long experience shows it has just the opposite effect.

This isn't about having a good relationship, where the partners are open and honest. This is about insecurity. I, and everyone else here, knows that any SO we connect with is not going to be a virgin. They have had sex, probably with several people thoughout their lives. We know this, so we don't need the details, nor should be want them. If you cannot handle finding out that a same-sex friend of your SO was at one time a lover, if this makes you feel jealous, insecure or betrayed, so have no business getting into a relationship until such time as you can get an handle on why you respond this way and learn to put it into perspective. I do not want the details of my SO's past sexual experiences. It's none of my concern and it has nothing to do with my relationship with her. The only sex life I need concern myself with is ours.

Now, AGG, let me see if I can tackle your "difference" question. There are similarities. Perhaps the biggest distinction is one of perception. To me, a BF/GF relationship is a kid's game. After all I'm not a boy and she's not a girl. We're not knocking on 50's door yet, but we are walkin up the path to it. Besides, my opinion of BF/GF relationships is that they are somewhat silly in that people tend to treat them like "marriage lite." We are grown, middle-aged people. So alot of the touch-feely, romantic behaviors, much of which is little more than stylized, of younger couples have no appeal to us. We don't spend most of our time naked and in bed. We aren't constantly making gestures of love and affection, though there are expressions of affection and tenderness - especially in the bedroom. We don't walk round holding hands and hugging and kissing. We greet one another with a kiss, but when we watch a movie, we don't snuggle up on the sofa together. etc., etc., etc.

So you're scratching your head and thinking "what's the point?" Well, the answer to that is that if you are asking this question, a FWB relationship is not for you. If what you want is a romantic, traditional BF/GF relationship, that's what you should go for. An FWB relationship is an alternative for those who want companionship and SF, but without the deeper emotional entanglements. It should be noted that many FWB relationships eventually become romantic or even progress to marriage.

I understand people's confusion about this. It seems new and odd. But acutally it isn't new at all. Couples have been having similar relationships for thousands of years. Remember, until very recently, marriange had nothing whatsoever to do with love. The romantic marriage concept is only about 200 years old. Even today in Hindu society, many marriages are arranged by a couple's parents when the couple are still children. These couples must approach the development of their relationship in a manner almost exactly like I describe for my own experience. They move from friendship to marriage to sex and love is something that grows over time. And think about this: divorce is almost unheard of in Hindu society. They don't see the point.

Check! I wondered where you were, you must have been writing this book!
And what about keys, do you have keys? What other similarities are there? Maaayyybe I need to make some new friends!
You are obviously very learned and book smart, I've noticed that in posts past, and that's great. Hindus rock!
Maybe, just maybe, if you find someone you are interested in for LTR, you could see what SHE thinks, because you ARE right about one thing-it's about perception. Just because you perceive it not to be an issue doesn't mean that others don't. I, for one, DO want to know if I'm going to be exposed to a past partner. I'd rather hear it from him than guess it, see it, or hear it from someone else. My guessing/finding out=feeling of betrayal. His telling me=respectful honesty.
Yeah, I'm all grown up and have been with several partners. However, when I think of someone I love being with someone before me, for some reason I want to be the only one they have ever loved. I know I'm not, I'm not fooling myself, but hey, I live in my own world and the sky is purple!
I'm just scared for you and others that have the FWB and it backfiring and someone getting needlessly hurt and well, maybe damaging something good. Take it for what it's worth! It's a tough one, and probably why I couldn't do it!

Whew <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Good <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.


Actually, I am not scratching my head at all <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. What you described is exactly what I look for in my relationships these days anyway, so I don't have a problem with that approach - I think it is mature and rewarding.

It's just that aside from the label, I perceive what you describe to be a normal healthy BF/GF relationship. You and your friend have common ground and interests, you are attracted to each other, you respect each other, you spend time together, you meet each other's EN's, you are emotionally connected, and you sleep together.

I think this is a great relationship, but it is not what I personally would consider FWB. I think when most here talk about FWB, they are referring to someone also known as a f***buddy, someone who is a friend who is available for the occasional romp <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />. In contrast, you are clearly (to me, at least) describing a normal, healthy, stable, and good romantic relationship. Especially since you say that you can see the possibility of a deeper and more loving relationship developing down the line.

I think of a true FWB relationship as a placeholder relationship, giving you someone to "take care of you" while you do not have a real partner. Which is far from what you are describing in your situation. What do you think?

AGG

Drita, no we don't have keys to one another's places. Neither of us have any expectation that they other will be available for them and only them at any given time. All our time together is scheduled, just as it is with any other friend. I stick by my ideas about past relationships. You need to work on this, because from this point on, you can only be the lastest (an maybe the last), not the first (nor would you really want to be if you are older than about 22). So if these things bug you badly, you will unconciously poison any relationship you get into. I gaurantee that.

There's big difference between a f**k buddy and a FWB, AGG. The term f**k buddy originated in the gay/bisexual community. Forgays it's something very much like a FWB, but gays are rarely sexually monogamous. In the bisexual community, the term most often refers to a man with whom a married man hooks up with on the side for gay sex. (I have several gay friends and, oh! the things they have taught me! Most of it quite sad....) The term has been adopted by heterosexuals. But what a f**k buddy is to them is someone the have nothing to do with but sex. The way it usually works is a guy goes out with his buds and the pickings are slim at the singles bars. But he's horny, so he make a booty call to his f**k buddy. This really is a wham bam, thank you ma'am deal and friendship never enters the picture.

I will accept your charaterization of a FWB relationship, but only warn you that romance is not a part of it. When romance becomes a part of it, then it ceases to be an FWB and the relationship's boundries have to be revisited. It certainly is a different approach. I mentioned that our romantic marriage model is only about 200 years old. Doesn't seem to work very well anymore does it? I believe that this is because it is a failed social experiment, just like so many others we've tried in modern society. It may be time for us to try something different. As they say, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome.

A bit OT....

I want to mention something about love itself. Our basic concepts of love were devised by the acient Greeks. Oversimplifying here, but they believed in different kinds of love. There was self love, familial love (this is the kind you would have for your wife and children), fraternal love (much touted by Plato, and hence platonic love), ergos (sexual love) and agapE, or spiritual love. To the Greeks, fraternal love was the highest form, since it insured peace and social cohesion. Early Christianity, drawing on the teachings of Christ, adopted agapE (now known as agape) as the highest and purest form. There was no notion of romantic love as we kjnow it today. To the Greeks, for a man to be crazy in love with his wife, as we are expected to be today, was considered evidence of imbalance and immaturity. Romantic love is a product of the Middle Ages and conceptually is only about 800 years old. This isn't to say that no one felt this kind of love before then, but it didn't become revered until then.

Oh, Drita, given that you appreciate Hindus, you really like this. I have a Hindu who works for me. Another employee, who knows nothing about religion beside Catholicism ask him the other day about practice and worship. I could tell the Hindu was struggling to adapt Eastern spiritual ideas into somethig a Westerner could comprehentd. The Catholic asked the Hindu "where to you go to church?" The Hindu looked at him as if he'd just dropped out of the sky and replied "Church? Go? I carry my church within my heart. Your "church" is my eternal soul and it is always with me. I cannot go there, but must always be there.I can read books or consult a guru for enlightenment, but I must go inside myself to find truth" I've often said that the best Christians I know are Hindus.

Check,

I enjoy reading your responses, thanks.


So what do you mean by romance? Do mean feelings (love, desire, whatever else), or do you mean romantic gestures like flowers? Put another way, what do you not have in your current "FWB" relationship that you would expect to have in a romantic relationship?

AGG

Fishracer, it really depends, read again my last sentence. For one person with whom I had a FWB relationship, it really was very casual sex. But my more memorable one which I described first...the sex was not casual. We were very good friends, did things together, talked on the phone, supported each other, etc etc. I was attracted to him but did not love him and I believe vice versa. There were too many red flags for me to consider a long-term relationship with him. We did not have the same life goals. It's not that I really did secretly love him but decided against trying to make it work...if you go by a love bank balance...I just saw enough to know that he was great as a friend but would not be great as a true partner. He kept my love bank in balance, you might say--never going in the red, but never really earning a high interest rate, ya know? We are not in touch anymore but I look back at that experience with fondness and smiles.

The situation I am currently in, yes, I could see it going far beyond friendship...all the way, in fact. But because of present circumstances, I am purposefully keeping somewhat of a wall up and not allowing my whole heart to be involved.

Couple of things I'd like to say...yes, the FWB can involve all kinds of things that are common to a regular dating relationship. Sometimes there is just something missing so you both know it won't become more emotionally intimate...sometimes you purposefully keep a wall up...you do it consciously. Casual sex does not interest me any more because it's just like masturbating, except there's a warm body there with you. I can get myself off, thank you very much, without having to worry about getting hurt. Casual sex is just too *EMPTY* at this point in my life. But if you have a TRUE FWB relationship...someone you indeed are very good friends with--it is not empty because you are still sharing YOURSELF with each other. Sure, you may be holding back--but there is some intimacy there that casual sex isn't likely to offer.

If I had a FWB relationship and became deeply involved with someone on a more intimate level, I would likely end my FWB relatioship altogether--as in not even friends anymore. I don't feel it would be fair to a partner to keep a friend around with whom I had a physically intimate relationship, even if I always felt that person was a friend. Because let's face it, that person was NOT "just a friend" on some level.

Hope that answered your questions, Fishracer. If not, let me know!

While I have no intentions of posting my feelings or opinions about the main topic of this thread, I have found it interesting to read.

However, I must be really confused about how "older" people go about relationships or be doing something wrong (because I'm very, very close to the big 40 now, which makes me "older")...

Check, you said:


Uh, oh. Yes they do, to me. I still want that. I still want the hugs, the kisses, and all that touchy-feely stuff.


The guy I'm currently seeing does exactly this with me. He has commented many times about how he hopes I don't get tired of being close and cuddly, because it's something very much enjoys. My ex wasn't a touchy-feely type outside the bedroom (and for that matter, he didn't spend much time with me in the bedroom either), whereas this guy and I both have a very high need for affection. So when we walk somewhere, it is often with one of us having an arm around the other. If we sit on the couch, be it watching movies or football or whatever, there is cuddling and generally some kissing involved. It's great! I don't consider it a teenage thing at all. I just consider it a great way to show the other person you care, and I'm loving every minute of it!

LL

LL, I can only say to you that over the next 10 years, you are going to change a lot. Much of what you think you cannot live without now, will be unimportant when you are 50. Conversely, things you don't give a second thought to now, will become very important. We change in somewhat predictable ways as we go through life, men in their ways, and women in their own. Consider Shakespeare's "All the world's a stage" speach from As You Like It:

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
And then the whining school-boy, with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honour, sudden and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lined,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slipper'd pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side,
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank; and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.

Shakespeare didn't make this up himself, he just adapted an idea from the Talmud (Old Testiment, Eccleseastes, if my memory serves me). the stages of life are also discussed in the Hindu Bhagavad Gita. There is much wisom in these ancient spiritual texts and psychologists know that they are pretty much dead-on right about how we change as we age.

Perhaps I should have been more careful in my selection of words. I did not mean to imply that the romantic trappings are not important to anyone my age or even that they aren't ever important to me. They simply aren't so much a part of our relationship.

My ex became completely unaffectionate about a year after we were married. She never hugged me, only kissed me goodbye as I was leaving, never snuggled with me, etc. This used to bother me a lot. But over the last four years or so, I've come not to care so much about such things. It isn't a case that I would never desire to give and receive affection, but it just isn't as important as it once was. When I speak of touchy-feely, I mean fake affection. Many younger people, especially men, enact these behaviors only because it is expected of them. It's only a part of the game. Before my ex turned into the Ice Queen, I would often take her in my arms just to hold her and smell her hair. At night as we were going to sleep, I would cuddle up to her just so I could feel her heartbeat. It comforted me. But do you see the difference? Mine were not stylized behaviors. I wasn't doing these things becaue they were expected and I'd better do them if I wanted to get some sex. Rather I did them as a reflexive outward expression of my emotion. Do you know where this desire to touch comes from and it's importance?

AGG, the answer to your question "what do you not have in your current "FWB" relationship that you would expect to have in a romantic relationship?" is simple. Love. I do not love this woman as I loved my wife. Nor does she love me. This may change one day, but neither of us want it now.

I specifically want to address your statement about the giving of flowers as a romantic gesture. We do this all the time, don't we? We give her flowers for having sex with us, on special occasions, St. Valentine's day, etc. And what do we do? Order roses or something without giving it much more thought than what her favorite flower is? But where does this custom come from? If tou read Medieval romantic literature, you will find that the gallant knight would often present his lady with a flower as a token of his undying love. But what is important isn;t the presentation of the flower, but the flower itself. Different flowers carry different meanings. I'll invoke Shakespeare again. In his plays and sonnets there are many references to flowers. In each case, the flower carries a specific meaning, and Shakespere would often use this to describe an inner emotion, as foreshadowing, or to reveal a character's true motivation. The symbology of flowers is part of what we now know as semiotics. Some believe it's roots are in Jewish cabalism. So the next time you want to give your lady a flower, study up on the symbology of flowers and choose one that conveys the meaning or emotion you want.

Nah, I still couldn't do it. [in any interuptation of the words]

I have to have emotional attachment, which would involve my heart.

I want that someone to hold me like you mention Check, or kiss my forehead, the "special" moments that to me go with the whole act of intimacy.

I understand that this could work for you or others, but it just wouldn't for me.

Good thread here FR! very interesting topic.

K!

"I have to have emotional attachment, which would involve my heart."

Exactly, Karona. This is why I warn people off from sexualizing a relationship too quickly. Men really do have the capacity to divorce sex from love, but women usually don't. There are biological and emotional reasons for this difference and men you don't understand this are playing a dangerous (not to mention selfish) game. Guys who are playing the love game just to get some sex, will end in hurting a woman more often than not.

Consider this, though. A real FWB relationship as I have described it does have emotional attachment. There is also committment. I understand how you feel about this, as I did myself at one time. There is every possibility that I will again. For now, this is a better approach for me.

Check,

"Men really do have the capacity to divorce sex from love"

I will keep that in mind!!

Karona

Have you ever read Dr. Alex Comfort's The Joy of Sex? There's a cartoon in it that points up a fundamental difference between men and women that too often becomes contentious. In it there is a gisgruntled man and woman. Each is holding a sign. Hers says "No love, no sex!" His says " No sex, no love!"

And That, brings us to, His Needs, Her Needs.

And, no, I have not read the book, but maybe I should.

Thanks for sharing!

K

Nice to see someone familiar with Talmud <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.


At the risk of sounding stupid, what is love? I am assuming you don't mean the giddy "in love" crap that you so consistently speak out against (I agree with you, BTW). So then is "love" not what you feel when your partner meets all your EN's, if we believe Harley? And if so, then it sounds to me like your FWB meets all your ENs, doesn't she?

Hmmm, maybe that's what it comes down - there are some key ENs that she doesn't meet for you, and so you don't feel the love for her?

Let me know if you feel that I am prying too much, I don't mean to.

AGG