i seriously think this is as good as it will get. and i just don't know what to do about it. why can't it be enough for me? it is enough for him. it gives our kids an intact family. but it is just not enough for me. i wish with all my heart it could be enough for me too. i wish i could be a different person. but i cannot. why do i need more?

my emotions are all over the place, from sad, to mad, to frustrated, to just not wanting to care.

not wanting to care is winning out. but not really cuz i really do care. i don't want to quit, as in leave. i want what we have never really had, how stupid is that. we've been married 19 years. why do i keep beating my head on this wall.

all he wants from me is a peaceful existence. one where we are superfically close. i can't do that guys. i just cannot. i never could. i certainly realize i've historically done a terrible job trying to build the type of marriage i want.

i'm going to go work out.

.....all he wants from me is a peaceful existence. one where we are superfically close. i can't do that guys. i just cannot. i never could. i certainly realize i've historically done a terrible job trying to build the type of marriage i want.

How do you know that is all he wants? Given that you have done a terrible job - your words, not mine - how do you know what his needs are and what you can do to mesh what you want with his CAPABILITIES! How do you know what he would find wonderful if you have never led the way through your own wants and needs?????????????

My FWW and I had an OK mariage. It wasn't totally what she wanted. She love busted (see web site) instead of building.

Under extreme pressure from all sorts of sources, she had an affair, an infatuation.

I wanted more from the marriage and didn't know how to tell her and she didn't know how to tell me what she wanted except in a half-assed way that promoted more confrontation than solutions.

To save my marriage, I found this site and individual counseling and discovered myself. She found this site about 8 months before she had the affair and read it almost to the letter - I didn't know it at the time or ignored it as the case may be.

If you can get your husband here, we can help him.

TRUST ME ON THIS. If you can get your husband here, we can collectively help him. I too wanted a peaceful marriage.
But what I have found is so rewarding that I look back and have many regrets that I didn't work hard enough to find the possible instead of the comfortable.

You want intimacy. You want conversation. You want a lot of things that are part of your emotional needs. He can deliver them or you will find them somewhere else - hopefully next time through divorce NOT through betrayal.

He must be doing some things right or you WOULD have sought the honorable way of going about things instead of sneaking around and having an affair while hanging on to your husband.

You have dishonored yourself and your husband. Now do the right thing.

Read His Needs - Her needs and get him to read it as well.

FL, I honestly don't know what to say. I do understand where you are coming from though. Is this something you can live with until your kids are up and out? That would be the best gift you could ever give them, KWIM? {{FL}}

CV55 talked to her MC the other day and mentioned something I said about deliberately employing independence in my marriage, and that it made me sad that I was reduced to this by infidelity. Her MC said a wise thing :

"That may be where they need to be NOW, but not necessarily where they will end up".

I'm not satsified where I am right now either, but I have faith that it can and will change.

You both have a lot to process at every step FL, not at the same pace.

Stick with it.

{{{{FL}}}}

larry, i cannot make him do anything. he does not want to read here, he does not want MC, he does not want to read any books. he would never work with me before either. the ONLY thing that finally got him working is when i wanted a divorce and not when i just said i wanted a divorce, when i really so totally meant it and he could tell. then he knew he had to do something, and he did. and he did so good i not only stayed around, i gave myself 100% to him by giving him the truth. and now here we are.

is that the answer FF, tough it out until they are grown?

what is grown anyway? HS grad? college grad?

i hear having parents split right when you are starting to decide who you want to spend you life with can be devestating too. so do i wait until they are both married? see what i mean?

bob, i couldn't even reply to your post. i am so very happy for you both. don't get me wrong. i really sincerly am.

FF, besides, i don't want to divorce him!!! i really dont.

i have always loved him. i really truely have.

FL, first let me say I have not given up the hope that your H is just healing and will still awaken. I do believe in miracles and I know your H loves you. Have you read the Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands? I really recommend it as an eye opener for us women.

As for the grown children...once they are out of the house in college is what I meant. Believe me it is never easy even as adults to deal with our parents D but you do IMHO have an obligation to do what is best for them (as long as your H is not cheating or abusive)to provide them a safe, secure, intact home until they are on their own.

Praying for you my friend.

Dang it. He only responded when you used a 2X4. . .

*sigh*

Male emotions revolve around mad, glad and sad. More's the pity, because they do revolve around more, they just don't have the words to articulate how they feel, so they boil them down to those. I know, I am male.

I suspect that his background drives him to be the way he is. I suspect that a 2X4 is not inappropriate - but called for. He needs help. If he chooses to ignore the help available, then the consequences are what he buys with that indifference.

In other words, he is buying the consequences through his own inaction and lack of knowledge. I relate to him more than I can say.

You have to do this together or it doesn't work. In my view, he has to WANT to restore the marriage - more than that, he has to WANT to make it bigger and badder than ever. And to do that he has to be as concerned with your needs as he is with his own.

And the only way that happens is by learning, working at it and practicing what has been learned.

Sometimes you have to LEAD a horse to water before he will drink - sometimes not.

And you have to keep it simple, so he can understand it. Don't go into any discussion with him and complicate it with your 20 year issues built upon the complexity of feminine logic and needs.

Each person and situation is different. Based on what you have told me, I would do the following. You might even want to put it in writing - a powerful way of communicating.

1. I love you.
2. I had an affair - I am deeply sorry and I am going to make it up to you any way that I can.
3. I had the affair because of personal weakness - not your fault. (he took a hit to his ego)
4. My emotional needs were not met and you know it.
5. I do not want myself vulnerable to another affair. It disgraces me and it devastates you.
6. Before that happens, I will get a divorce and live with the consequences.
7. There is a way we can have the kind of marriage I want and need - with you. That is my hope and my dream.
8. But it takes two to tango.
9. You can either go buy the knowledge you do not have by reading and learning and counseling and by what you then do or you can buy the consequences by what you do not do whatever that might be.

I learned that a marriage is not a guarantee of happiness, it is a life journey where you either cultivate it and grow roses, or ignore it and grow weeds. I didn't like the thought of me growing weeds - that offended my maleness.

So I got help. I learned. And I have found happiness beyond my dreams - had no idea how much fun this can be.

My FWW had her own faults - she grew a lot of weeds. She too found that roses are more fun.

The other day my FWW told me, "I feel like I have a whole new man and I didn't have to cheat or ruin my kid's lives to get where we are."

She also told me, "What we have is 200% you getting us there." When pressed for an explanation, the only thing she would say is, "You pee standing up."

I got it. My manhood was challenged and I did what I had to do - the right thing. You husband may or may not, but whatever he does, he OWNS THE CONSEQUENCES. It is up to him to be the leader after you show him the water if you get my drift.

Who was doing all the heavy lifting in your marriage during the years you were involved with other men?

A sincere question, no trick involved.

FL.

I hope I am not speaking out of turn as this is highly speculative.

Its a year of NC today for us. I have been quite pensive and reviewing our situation.I have changed in many ways, some I like and some I have not liked.

In response to Squid's affair I have had to learn how not to depend on her, or in fact on anyone. To want but not need. To not expect so highly of her and people that it is a burden upon them and so that I do not get bad surprises when I am let down, but NICE surprises when people and Squid exceed my expectations.

I hate that I have been reduced to this, but it is how I am now. It is a way I protect my heart and my hopes against being devastated again. It may not be how I will be all my life.

Projecting how I feel onto your H, IF he adopted a similar 'heart protection' method ( i.e. not comitting to avoid further extreme hurt) well he has been well served by this over the years hasn't he ?

If so ( and I admit I am projecting a LOT upon your H here) its going to take as big a POSITIVE compeller as your affairs were NEGATIVE impellers to make him drop his defence from DEFCON 5.

If it were ME, a lot of surprise and delight would do over time. So that my peripheral vision would start to see consistent investment of joy and trustability from my spouse.

Make it a project to surprise an delight yur H with your investment in him and do not feel rejected when he does not respond with happy tears right away.

Perhaps ?

If you think this is rubbish I understand FL. I am new to this train of thought myself !

larry, at item #4, he will get defensive, say his needs were not being met either. and i would have to agree.

or he will get mad, say i have no right talking to him like that, he will not stand for it.

either way, end of conversation.

i want to meet his needs, i try to meet his needs. i ask him what they are, he says he does not know.

granted i believe i tried to meet his needs before too. but obviously i was not good at asking or understanding what they were. i want to though. i wanted to then and i still do.

what is he so afraid of? that can be my only conclusion, he is afraid.

he has always been afraid of being hurt. that i do know. whie we dated and then at our wedding, you know what song got the most reaction out of him?? "i'll be watching you" that is the ONLY song i ever remember him choosing to point out. he was always so jealous, always expecting the worse from me. and boy did he get it. and that really s*cks!

and yet he is a very nice man. i truely like his personality. i truely have always wanted to be his wife.

i have just never been able to get closer than arm's length with him.

is it me or is it him?

how did you figure out you had to learn? it sounds like infidelity was not the 2x4 that got your attention. what did it for you?

ok, i really am going to go work out now. right before i left last time, a got a call that a technician was on his way to fix a problem i was having, so i had to wait.

i'm hoping beating my body up a bit will do me some good.

actually Bob-o

this was really quite good!

obviously if you are talking about july 2001 - nov 2003, it was him.

bob, i'm not sure how to respond. there is a bit of a difference between him and you. he has never depended on me for anything.

oh wait, except to be faithful. we all know i blew that one pretty bad.

otherwise, my presence was not actually required. in fact he was very adament, as i tried to engage him in activities or get him to let me be a part of his, "we did not need to enjoy activities together to be happily married." he withdrew from our marriage a long long time ago.

an MC once asked him, why did you marry her?? and the question was not like, try to remember why you married her. it was in response to him talking about things i had done while we were dating, things that occured 3 months into our dating relationship!! this was 15yrs into our marriage and his biggest complaints were things that old.

his response was, i saw potential and thought she would change.

the complaints were about how i interacted with other males.

i don't see how this man will ever find happiness with me. he could find peace, if i could learn to not want more than co-existance. i don't know if i can learn that.

i'm pathetically negative today.

And I'm negatively pathetic today ! LOL !
How bizarre - I wish I had a FWS as hardworking as you in recovery, and you (perhaps) wish you had a BS as hardworking as me in recovery.

"ToMAYto toMARto, lets call the whole thing off !"

I've been herded into attending the Karate Club Karaoke night tonight. I'd rather have pins in my eyes but I try to be supportive.

* sigh *

Ain't it strange where we end up FL ? For a while at least.

no i don't wish i had a BS as hardworking as you.

i want my H. he does not need to be perfect in any way. i just want him to want me, and us. i just want him to let me in.

FL,

Has it occured to you that he has not changed a bit since you married him? Through it all he has been consistent in holding you at arms length, and wanting to live in peace.

It seems to me what is going to have to change is YOUR expectations of the man. He is not who you dream he will become. He may change but it will be on his time line. You meet his needs for the most part.

1. You provide financial security so that he can do the work that pleases him.

2. You have reared the children with him, and are a good mother.

3. You do love him although your behavior would make anyone question that.

So what else does HE need? I am suggesting that he seems to need little else. What else would he have liked? You to not have had affairs. Makes sense doesn't it?

I cannot argue for or against your feelings, but I can argue that he has been remarkably consistent and he obviously values the marriage because he did "fight" for it for two years while you were in an A he did not know about. So while he seems to not be emotionally invested, I don't think that is really an accurate statement either.

Your H has issues and apparently they have existed from before you two married. In someways you are the "perfect" wife for him, because although your A's hurt him deeply, they allow him to remain where he is most comfortable...at arms length.

I think you would be well served to evaluate what you need from him and why you feel you need it, before you worry about him right now. Just my thoughts, I hope they spark some more conversation with you on this subject.

God Bless,

JL

JL, i was hoping you would stop by.

first...
yes this is painfully obvious. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

agreed. but can this change my needs?

i do believe i fill his need for financial and domestic support. i'm not the perfect homemaker, i work a bit too much, but i certainly try to do my fair share. he helps around the house too. he did change on that front because he used to not do too much inside the house and his actions have been very consistent now for a long time. i do believe he intends to continue to help around the house as much as he now does.

yes he has been consistent and yes he definitely values marriage. he has shown me that beyond a shadow of a doubt.
i have been thinking a LOT about this. because on various levels, we are just fine. maybe the problem really does lie in me, in my needs