There's a new, unexpected twist in events. For those of you who have been riding this roller coaster with me no synopsis is needed. Those of you who aren't familiar with my sorry saga need only know that I am a typical BS. Your comments would be most welcome and you can sure help a feller out.

Here's the scoop. Yesterday my wife provided her lover's home phone number to me. True, it is disconnected but it was a number I was unaware of and it allowed me to add a WHOLE LOT of calls I didn't know about. She has agreed to let me contact him regarding visitation with the baby and to stay out of the loop. Today she let me listen to her cell messages because she had gotten a message from her lover's brother and later listen in on her conversation when she returned the call. She told me she called her lover yesterday and told him she was breaking off contact. I think that she really made that call because she told me that she hopes he doesn't kill himself. (I know, I know)

My friends know how close I am to plan B. Now here's my question. Suppose this were not now but a few months into plan B? How does one know if full transparency is sincere? I hadn't considered this turn of events and I don't want to blow it if things are genuinely improving. My concern is about the message I would be sending if my wife is FINALLY ending her affair and I move out anyway. So what else should I be looking for to reassure myself that this seemingly promising change of heart is genuine? There's still a little time left before I go. If I am NOT reassured I will most assuredly be gone. I'd be a fool to rely solely on her word at this point.

For those of you who don't know me please believe that I am not a fool and that I have done all my homework, read all the books. For my friends..... WTF? NOW what?

Campdog,

You are still in plan A so why worry about this. Further, if you were in plan B and she decided to go NC she would per your letter come to you, write a letter of NC with you to send to OM, establish ways to be open to you so that you could check that NC was indeed going, and then go to counseling with you. That is what you would specify in your plan B letter with perhaps some little modification.

You see plan B is not about leaving, so much as stepping back while giving your W a PATH back to you if she so chooses. I think that before you get too far into this, you both need to sit down and make a plan to help her and assure you that NC is being maintained. This is a joint thing, that you both need to discuss.

You have needs and one of them is protection from this affair, and she should be willing to help you KNOW that the A is over. As for visitation, he is NOT legally the father, he is NOT paying support, and legally the child is NOT his. If he wants to establish legal claims he must do that. Until then I would strongly urge you to keep him out of your life, your W's life, and the child's life.

These laws are in place for a reason and interestingly they protect the parties involved. See a lawyer about this WITH your W, and talk this over very carefully. You are taking a huge financial risk IF you decide to by the dad to this child and she later decides to bail on you. Talk, discuss, don't educate, don't discuss the relationship. Just discuss what you need and what she needs to make this work.

Plan B is still a possibility, but please fully understand the purpose of the plan B letter. It is crucial to the process although you will see people that "I told him/her in person, or I just decided no contact with the WS." These approaches don't work, because things are not in writing so that they can be referred to IF there are discussions about what is going on. Further, the WS MUST have a way back into the relationship and it needs to be spelled out, or you just might as well divorce.

I hope this makes sense.

God Bless,

JL

I would think that it's the same thing as if you had already been in plan B for a while...you should have the same requirements from her.

PROOF of ended contact...she needs to PROVE to you that she's ended it. Giving up all rights to secrecy. Full accountability, full access to all of her phone/email, etc...

An NC letter to OM that is approved by you, and you are copied on it so that you KNOW that OM has it in hand.

Whatever other requirements you feel are needed to restore your marriage.

If I were you, I'd make it all VERY clear to her now...and let her know that if she really does want to reconcile with you, that she has to meet these criteria or you will be working to end the marriage.

Just, I'm out the door in a very short time. I told my wife that I've known from the beginning that she hadn't ended her affair despite her own apparently sincere belief that she had. I told her that I wouldn't live under that condition. You said "that before you get too far into this, you both need to sit down and make a plan to help her and assure you that NC is being maintained". EXACTLY. Now I'm asking those that have been there what exactly did you work out with your spouses that satisfied you that NC was actually in place and not a continued deception? Remember, this is an affair that is YEARS long, with a child, and she has been lying to me about contact since d-day. Can anyone provide specifics beyond what is in the books?

Owl, I don't like the NC letter. It's too easy to overturn with a surreptitious phone call. These two have been playing me for a chump for years. Realize that now that she knows I know about her calls she need never use that cell phone again to call him. Doesn't mean they won't keep right on with contact, just means they gotta be more careful. If I am not 100% certain that this is a true change of heart on my wife's part I'm at the point where I HAVE to leave.

Campdog,

If you HAVE to leave then do so. It is truely your call not hers, not OM's, it is YOUR call on this.

God Bless,

JL

campdog...

You gotta get to the point where you accept what comes at ya. You live your life 'right'. She will have to do the same. Certain things at this point will scream out at you, and you will simply know. If things should go sour, you can walk with confidence that you tried to do everything you could.

I know it feels like you have no power here...but, the point is, she is 'pretending' to be your wife. Something about that exposes that she still loves you, imo. Otherwise, pack up and go. Some shred of her desires the marriage to make it...(or I'm way off base and I'm sure I'll get called to the carpet on it) ...so, I think you have a chance. You have the power to walk away, you have the power to say, I need you to do these things to make me believe your intentions are good...

hang in there

And if you need to leave, do so with a clear conscience.... OK?

I guess I'm not making myself clear. I know the drill, have read all the literature I could get my hands on, have learned to trust some very awesomely smart people here. I'm asking for specifics . Access to her cell phone is cool if she grants it but I could hide an infinite number of phone calls if I so desired. Email? How hard is it to get an internet email account and hide it? Same goes for honest and open conversation. My wife is capable of, and has demonstrated a willingness to, look me dead in the eye and flat out lie.

So how did you vets KNOW your spouses affair was over? What specifically did you agree to that at least let you believe you were headed in the right direction? Despite the encouraging signs I mentioned above my trust in my spouse is at zero and without something to give me faith in her words and actions I simply cannot sustain plan A anymore. These are questions I will have even if I leave the relationship and at a later point consider reconcilliation.

Hi, campdog.

Please acknowledge that you read and understood what JL said about the child. It is of crucial importance to you.

If you haven't sought legal counsel, please do so NOW.

Gimble

As I said, you hav to get to a point where you accept what comes at you, and regardless, you live your life 'right'. I'm sure any of the BS's here will gladly take your formula for guaranteed proof of 100% committment, no looking back, no worries about sincerity. Heck, just feel free to write that formula down for me, I will gladly package that up and sell that bad boy...I will be wealthy OVERNITE!

You got no guarantees. You gotta just decide what you want, and then strive for that.

Oh, I see what you are asking now.

I did not trust my H AT ALL for about 2 years. I trusted myself during that time frame. NOT HIM!

You cannot plug every possible route of communication between them. You will only feel and look nutz doing that. Who wants to be married to a spouse with the equivilent of a GPR device strapped around their ankle? Not me.

Forget trusting her. Trust yourself. Call her whenever you are feeling "iffy" and listen to her level of concern for your insecurity.

I would NOT trust a FWS who was whining about their lack of freedom or privacy ... EVER!

Listen to what she says ... but her words have ZERO cash value.

Only count her actions and her sincere concern for your wellbeing as points for her side.

She should not be trusted for quite some time.

BUT .... guess what? It doesn't matter ! Really. If you have full trust in yourself and your instincts you don't need to trust her. You trust yourself to know when something smells like week-old-scrod <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> That's when you pull a 'pop quiz' .... tell your W "I'm going to Home Depot, Ill be back in about an hour and a half."

Drive around the block, park the car, walk back into your house unannounced after 15 minutes.

CD-

All of us have had to face those same doubts. My wife's contact was all via internet, with the last few weeks via phone contact as well. While I put as many things in place as I could to verify NC, I knew that there were many ways around them. OM was a computer guru, and at least as good on them as I am...if not better. He'd had her looking for spyware and such before d-day...I just caught them because they'd gotten sloppy. Any measure I could take, I could think of several ways that I could get around it...and so could OM.

So, I put in the best measures I could, and simply kept the best eye I could on the situation. Was it perfect? No. I found out about six months after d-day that my wife had made phone calls that I didn't know about post d-day...but they were before we'd begun to reconcile.

All you can do is set the boundaries, and put in place as many measures as you can. And make HER come up with ways that you can hold her accountable too. And then pray and keep an eye out to see/feel if anything is wrong.

In my case, it's been over a year since NC. I still have a keylogger on all the computers, and I still keep an eye on the cell phone bills. But I don't feel like there is anything wrong, and I do trust my wife a lot more than I did a year ago.

Pep's suggestion is something I did a lot too. I knew that she used to call OM when I was out of the room or doing something...or she'd IM him at those times too. So, whenever I'd walk the dog, I'd peek back in the window. I'd leave for work and occasionally 'forget something'. Not often enough she'd catch on, but it was enough that I came to the conclusion that she was being honest with me.

CD..

I hear your angst with this and the answers given are pretty much what I would say. You should look at all things with an objective eye. You can not give her the benefit of the doubt as she is a proven liar. In my own case when my XW laments any trust issues I always tell her that I do not have any trust issues, you do. What I have learned is if it looks like $HI%, smells like $HI%, acts like $HI%...IT IS!!! All of your senses are on full alert..keep them there and you'll do fine. However, keep your boundries intact. Don't budge on them. Good luck...

“I'm asking those that have been there what exactly did you work out with your spouses that satisfied you that NC was actually in place and not a continued deception? Remember, this is an affair that is YEARS long, with a child, and she has been lying to me about contact since d-day. Can anyone provide specifics beyond what is in the books?”

CD,

I have read your threads here and there and on and off for a while now. Although I have likely missed much, I see some similarities in our situations. So, before I write further, let me present some context:

My W had a years long LTA (more than a decade).
DS is probably an OC, but I don’t care and I am not checking into it further.
The A continued underground for years after I first found out about it (even through a year of MC and IC).
False recovery for five years, then I discovered the A yet again. I am the poster boy for chumpness.
Her attachment to him is so strong, and the years of lies are so wide and deep, I will never completely trust her again. Not ever.
I’m still learning new A details, and they are all just as hurtful as each D-Day was.
Intermittent contact continues through work channels even now. (I hear from her about some of it, but probably not all.)


With that out of the way, feel free to ask me specific questions. In the meantime, I wonder why you the one planning to leave. Is your leaving a D or plan B? When her clock runs out, she should be the one to go elsewhere.

In my case, the interval from 1998 to 2004 was basically a really long Plan A. Too long, I know, it just taught her how better to eat cake. But I thought we were in recovery and my Plan A changes were indeed permanent!

So, this time I went right into plan B. She moved out to be with OM. The only ENs he met were conversation (and then only about work) and SF. It didn’t last two months. This is the power of Plan A, then Plan B, IMO. Force the adulterers together - after proving you can consistently meet her ENs.

W moved back home after meeting all the requirements in my Plan B letter, with proof. This included an apology letter to OM W on top of the NC letter, Retrouvaille, MC, IC (a different one this time), returning to an active church involvement, total access to phone and computer accounts, me confronting OM, total nuclear exposure, and a half dozen additional things unique to us. And I waited to see her proofs endure for several months before I agreed to anything.

Bottom line - you cannot ever be sure of NC. I certainly am not. You have to analyze the situation and decide what you can live with. Can you live with suspected but un-provable contact? Will you be better off without her in your life if you cannot trust her any more?

There are several more questions like that you need to answer. Write them down.

D is not a current option for me for many reasons (unless she initiates it or runs off with OM, but now that his W knows everything I believe this will not happen). Legal separation, maybe.

For me, loving detachment is the key. I provide a loving home for DS. He is paramount. I have tamed my taker and live as best I can. We do not fight at all. I continue to honor my vows and promises. That seems to be enough for me, at least for now. Who knows what I will want (on MB read: needs) after DS leaves for college.

Your WW’s recent actions are positive on the surface, at least. So what is the hurry in your leaving? Why the time limit, anyway? It will be better to ask yourself, can you endure or can you not? Do you even want to have to endure?

What do you get in return if you continue trying? What ENs of yours are being met? You don’t want to be put into a position where you fall into your own A.

And neither do you want to become her warden.

Oh, and I totally agree with the advice to keep OM out of your life. If he wants contact with OC, fight him - make him do all the work. Get A Lawyer! You owe him nothing, nothing at all. You don’t owe him the time of day. You certainly do not owe him any contact whatsoever with OC. At this point the law is well over on your side in this.

Sorry, getting long. I don’t post much any more but yours caught my eye. I’ll stop now.

With prayers,

PS: You are not a “typical BS,” campdog. Typical BS immediately D. typical BS forever use the A against the WS. Typical BS have a revenge A. Typical BS don’t stay on MB.

PPS: "My wife is capable of, and has demonstrated willingness to, look me dead in the eye and flat out lie." Mine usually had tears in hers at the same time.

Aphelion, you are too good a man to call yourself a chump.

CD, just wanted to tell you that I will keep you in my prayers. Men like you and Aphelion are very rare and worthwhile.

First of all thank you all for reaching out to me. I am always humbled by the quality of the people who post to this site. I am agonising over this new development and I am grateful for your input.

Gimble, I saw what Just wrote, thanks for your heads up. I will certainly consult an attorney before leaving my family. For the record the baby is MY son, in my heart if not in fact. My feelings for him are no different than my feelings for my nine year old.

I know that there are no guarantees for what I'm asking about guys. I wasn't asking for any. As I said I hadn't really considered a turn-around in my wife pre plan B so I'm foggy on just what to ask for . That's why I asked about specifics.

Aphelion, pleased to meet you. I don't think we've spoken before. I got a lot out of your words and I'll be digesting them for a while. I DO have specific questions for you and if you don't mind I'll write to you directly as soon as I mull over your post. But to answer your questions, in order, for one there is NO hurry to leave. In fact the thought takes my breath away. I've known about the calls and the lies for months and persevered regardless. But I know my own limits. To reiterate, I'm at the end of plan A. If I'm not comfortable that there is NC between them then I cannot, and will not, stay in the relationship. If I continue trying under those circumstances I get to see myself as a pathetic cuckold.
As far as keeping the OM away from my son I have a few thoughts on that. For one I never intended to keep my son's paternity a secret from him, even if my wife's lover blew away like dandelion puffs. Since d-day I have insisted that he go the court route in establishing his 'rights' (it boils my blood to think he even has any). But apparently this stance has caused my wife a lot of pain and contributed to their continued contact, at least in her own mind. It might sound strange but my wife is at heart a moral, caring woman. We had a respectful conversation about visitation and negotiated a plan following POJA principles. I would have no problem with court ordered visitation and so have no problem with a private arrangement. It would have the added benefit of keeping my wife's lover with no legal standing as my son's father and of removing a source of pain to my wife. I have no desire to 'punish' anyone. Am I missing something?
Finally bro, if you think you're long winded then you certainly haven't seen most of my posts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Gotta run now and play some cards with my wife and kid. Thank you all again for your care and concern.

CD, sorry this slipped off the radar. How are things going?

CD

It is the responsibility of yoru W to convince you of her good intentions here.

As you say a person can maintain contact in many ways if they want to badly enough. Squid bought a mobile phone just to use with OM for example. I discovered it by accident.

After I discovered that I made a calm assertion of boundaries to her.

" Baby I want to work on rebuilding our marriage but I will not be humilated while I do so.

If you want to rebuild ou rmarrige an ddo not want to hurt me you will cease all contact for ever with OM. If continuing you rrelationship, even 'platonically' is more important to you than my hurt or safety, then I will not shackle you to recovery with me. I understand it is hard to let go of an affair partner, but I will not be indefinitely patient.

I will not snoop. I will assume you are continuing contact unless you can convince me that you are not.

I love you but contact with OM is hurtful, dangerous and I will not leave myself in hurt's way. "

Squid hurled barbs at me about " Privacy" and I pointed out that she had abused my respect of her 'privacy' even that day by calling OM. She was an angry as a rat-trapped viper.

Over the next week she came to me and threw the phone statements at me.

Later she hurled the 'secret'pphoen at me.

Then she gave me the codes to her phone.

Improved steadily until now she is virtually transparent in activity, as am I.

It won;t be quick CD, but transparency is YOUR boundary not your WWs.

i know you are brave enough to remove yourself from a situation where you are persistently disrespected. i KNOW you are.

So thats how I did it.

That was actually a serious question. It wouldn't be the first time in my life that I pissed people off without knowing how or even that I did so. I guess it's more just a question of this whole tale getting old. It certainly is for me.

Anyway, plan B letter is written, plans are in place. Moving to another state on the first. I'm scared to death and hurting so bad I can hardly breathe. Found out in the last few days that phone contact has been multiple calls every day and that they were together physically. No point in continuing plan A at this point. Even when confronted with the phone records she asserted that she WASN'T involved in a relationship with him. Basically she took the position that I was doing things to her . So I'm taking my show on the road. Oh well, I tried. Pray for me.

PureBob, you definately have a talent for being able to communicate with honesty and love.
I don't want to hijack this link, but was wondering if I had insulted you? I have noticed you have not responded to any of my recent postings. If I have, I am truly sorry.