I am new to this site, but I have gleaned many bits of useful information from this site I thought I might try the forums to help me with my thoughts. Please bear with me.

I had my first affair in my marriage earlier this year that lasted about 3 months. We were recovering from this when I discovered my wife is now having an affair. I was utterly devastated and she said she felt bad that I was going through this, but she showed no sympathy. She could not stop contact with this person (definitely by text or phone) She and I suffered for a week at home unable to resolve our issues with me trying and crying and her drinking herself into to sleep. She said she needed space and so I booked a flight home to America. Her sister advised me that she thinks it is a bad idea for me to go as my wife will probably resume here relationship. Now she has gone home to her sister and father's to get the distance needed to get her affair our of her mind and figure out if she still wants me.

I love her dearly and I have hurt her with the things I have said and done in the past. This experience has so changed my life that I want to correct my mistakes and make a fresh start. We have a great life (not at the moment), beautiful home, two wonderful kids and most people think we are the perfect couple. Obviously not, but I believe we have had it before and we can have it again and be even stronger.

Problem is, my wife has no remorse or guilt for the affair. She tells me that this other person does not figure into the equation and that she is just thinking about how we can make it work. However, I don't think she has come to terms with her affair and whether she wants it to be truly finished. Should I be looking for that to happen first, as I am doing, before she can seriously contemplate our relationship?

It has been 11 days since I discovered this affair and she has been with her family, who are urging her to do the right thing, and there is still no apparent remorse or guilt. We speak only to let the kids say hello everyday (they think she is visiting a sick friend). I want to give her space to work through her thoughts, but I don't believe she can deal with them until she feels guilt and remorse for her indiscretions. Everything I say gets thrown back in my face that "you did this, and worse" and "You had all the time you needed". Most of her friends and all of her family are urging her to sort our marriage out, but she can't find the love.

She only points out the flaws and is now at least saying that we did have some good times. However, she says that she felt she loved me always (until now), but that she never felt the love returned. I have written her a letter professing my love and apologizing for my shortcomings, but I get no reasonable response (other than a quip that "Oh you think I'm beautiful, smart, sexy and fun" which I do). I feel so helpless and she returns in 9 days. Should I avoid talking to her at all at this point?

I gave her some of the info from this site before she left and she has been reading it and says it is quite good and true. I feel so helpless. I don't want to lose my wife and I sure don't want the kids to go through this. My wife and I met nearly 10 years ago and I thought it was love. She says it was for her, but she never felt the love coming back. We have been married nearly seven years and we have a 4 and 6 year old. I want to make things right, but I can't seem to do right from wrong.

Anyway, thanks for listening to me and if you have any opinions or advice I would love to hear it. Thank you.

Just realized I should add a few other details. I am 37 and my wife is 44. I am here looking after the kids while she sorts her self out. She resents that she has gone to her family and that I am here, but I think she knows it is the right thing to do as she could not stop her contact even after the discovery. The affair, I beleve has only been going on for 3 or 4 weeks and she says they have slept together 3 times.

I do feel guilty for my past mistakes and I feel she would not have done this if I did not have an affair. I have come to terms with the end of my affair and I know there can be no contact. I feel this is all my doing and she blames me for her having the affair, whcih I partly agree with. I do feel the bad guy here in that I have treated her well in the past. By this I mean I did not show my appreciation and affection to her for all that she does for me and the kids. Conversation is a huge part of this and I have not been speaking to her with the respect and care that I should have. I want to make it up to her and do the right thing by her and the kids. I know we can have a happy life, but she is not able to see this at the moment. The waiting for an answer is killing me and I feel that I do nothing other than annoy or anger her.

I know it is early days, but I really could use some advice. I wish I had found this site 7 years ago. I am so much clearer in my mind what it takes to make a marriage successful. I love her and I want this to work. What should I be doing?

HI lost,

It's very complicated and tough when there are two affairs. My H and I were 6 months into recovery from my A when he started an EA and then left us to persue a life with his OW (Other Woman)

It took him being away for a month to realize us at home was what he really wanted.

I am going to tell you this from what my H told me as maybe it will give you insight to your wife?

My H in the beginning, coming home, blamed me for his A. The same way I blamed him for his A - but while I blamed him for his flaws, he justified his A by saying he would never have had one if it wasn't for mine.

He wanted the easy way out. Recovery hurt him more than he ever thought it would and getting the A out of his head wasn't happening. He met someone who made him feel good and he left in the hopes that she would replace me, and he would get over my A and life would be good again. He was willing to loose the children over this.

It took him a bit to realize that what he had WAS an affair, no different than mine and that his justifications were just that - justifications, and they didn't make his okay or right or that they hurt me any less.

You need to realize that her affair is NOT your fault. She made the choice - just as YOU made the same choice to have an affair. Your affair contributed to the pain and the conflict in the marriage - but YOUR affair is not to blame for hers - remember that okay?

Let her spend some time with her family AWAY from OM - the longer she is out of contact with the OM the more out of the "fog" she will come.

When you guys hit recovery - this is where it gets VERY tricky - as whenever you talk about one affair, it triggers the other person, and both affairs are brought up and ALOT of hurt gets cycled. It makes talking about the affairs very tricky. H and I , once we had all the details, made a deal to not bring up the affairs, but only mention when we are feeling low or hurt, so we could comfort eachother.

You are on the right path for admitting your share of adding to where the marriage was before your affair, and before hers, but PLEASE don't take responsibility for her affair - just like your affair wasnt her fault, hers is not your fault - TWO wrongs do not make a right.

Hang in there and welcome to MB.

Also wanted to add that ALL people in affairs rewrite martial history.

When H found out mine, I was convinced we had a horrible marriage, that I always loved him but didn't feel loved,that it was a one sided maarriage. Took me a bit out of the affair to realize how wrong I was.

When H was in his - he rewrote history too - pinpointing moments he knew the marriage was done, and how he could see I never did love him, and that was the real reason for my Affair and so on and so on.

Remember that she was hurt badly, and in her hurt, started on the same negative thought cycle most WS's go on, and the more negative the cycle, the more rewritting that takes place. There is always SOME truth to it, but usually it's pretty blown up and out of preportion.

I would start Plan A with her. As a WS though - it's a little harder, as you have to be careful about your actions during Plan A, as you also need to rebuild her trust as much as she needs to rebuild yours.

Be loving, patient, and understanding and work through your feelings - it's quite the load to have the guilt, remorse and shame of your affair and deal with the shock hurt and anger from her affair....work through those feelings and try not to take them out on her.

Make sure if she comes home, she does agree to NO CONTACT - this is essential! I hope you have had no contact either! It works both ways!

Oh and - my H seperated me telling me the OW wasn't talking to him anymore and she had nothing to do with the seperation.

To this day he still tells me that she wasn't the deciding factor, he had been thinking about when and how for awhile...funny though that it was right after OW saw his wedding ring and questioned him about our seperation (we hadnt been yet - but he had told her he was). i still believe that she was the reason that he all of a sudden made that choice. Timing is everything....

Thanks for the replies. I can use any help at the moment. As far as Plan A, should I be encouraging this or have no contact at the moment. I want to speak her again as yesterday we spoke about it (even though I said I don't think we should she said "we were speaking about it" so I voiced my feelings and it did not turn out good). I know she will regret the affair and ask herself "what was I thinking?" But when?!? I am really struggling with this. I want to speak to her, but her defenses are so high I feel I can't do right from wrong. Should I leave it on the sour note or should I speak briefly with her tomorrow and then have no contact until she returns? Or should I have no contact from now forward? Difficult I know. And what if she does come around? I guess I should be starting Plan A then. I can't even get her out of the starting blocks. Thanks.

I don't know if I should advise you as my advice is a little different - hopefully others will chime in here,

But I would say DON'T push any conversations about the relationship. Don't contact her yourself. Let her call you - when she does, be pleasant, talk about normal things, listen to her. Show her how YOU are changing.

The more you push relationship talk and make her feel uncomfortable, the more she may justify not coming back.

I may be wrong, but this is what I had to do with my H.

Meanwhile - you have to start making changes. Even if she isn't around, still let her know how much you appreciate what she does around the house, with the kids, cause if she was feeling lack of love, more than likely she was feeling unappreciated.

Continue to change, learn more about what you do in conversations that make her feel alienated. I know she has some changes to make too - but first thing you have to accept is even if you reconcile, you can't change her. You can't force remorse, you can't force her to become the wife you need. BUT there are ways YOU can change to get what you need out of the marriage.

You also need to rebuild her trust - so make sure you don't do things that she may hear about that make her nervous, focus on the kids, focus on you, focus on her when she allows you to. Going out for a drink with the guys and staying out late while she is not around may not look good to her since you were a WS too, and she may say - see he will just move on anyhow so what does my affair matter.

In fact - my H was convinced that I would restart my affair when he left. I never even came close. Never even got contact from OM, nor looked for someone else. I still went out with friends, and kept bettering myself, but I was careful what I chose to do, and whom I chose to talk to as no matter where my H was or what he was doing, I had to rebuild trust too cause if he ever came back - I had to keep showing how much I personally had changed.

SO hang in there - don't push the Relationship talks, and better yourself.

You keep refering to your wife's affair partner as: "this other person"

is she with a man or a woman?

Sorry, I'm new here. Other Man (OM). No the problem is not that. Her affair is remarkably similar to mine in that she found someone who is so out of character for her type. This OM has tattos, earrings, labourer. A fairly typical English yob. He is the same age as me, 37, and he goes to the pub regularly and he can drink 10-15 pints in a session. He has nothing to offer her other than himself, which to be honest is not much. He is nice enough and we had invited him to a couple parties we had this summer. He has met me and the kids and she tells me how he has morals in that he told her "I don't want to break up your marriage and we shouldn't do this".

I know this is how people act in affairs. I just can't seem to handle (or her) that the affair has been exposed and that she can't stop contact with someone we both have know less than 2 months. She says he makes her feel alive again. I know what she means, as I felt the same thing. Alive, there is more to life, blah, blah, blah.

Her family and friends all say that he is not her type at all and I know this too. This guy doesn't even have a pemanent residence. He lives in a caravan. Her sister and her husband have met this guy and can't believe she would even consider a physical relationship with this guy. I am certain my wife will deeply regret this and think "What the ****** was I doing?" when she comes to terms with this from the perspective of this guy is not someone she would even contemplate a relationship normally with before she thinks the same sentence about the affair and our marriage. I know both will happen. Just how long will it take her to admit this to herself so she can they think clearly about us? Should I be having no contact, gentle reassurance contact with her right now?

I think I am going to try what Dorry recommended and just try and gently show her how I am changing and I will be polite when we have our daily call for the kids. This is the first time she has ever been away from the kids for more than one night (and that was only in the last month to see OM). I just don't want to see her make a judgement on us until she deals with the affair. How can she make a rational judgement on this without dealing with that first? I love her and I want to show her I have changed. She has always said she wants this to work, but currently she can't see how. The waiting is the hardest part...sigh.

I was just re-reading Dorry's post about no contact.



I thought you were referring to me having contact with my wife right now. You mean contact with OW in my affair, correct? No..I have had no contact with her since May 30, 2005 (she phoned me). I have no desire to contact her as I know it wasn't real and was a way for me to escape the problems in my marriage. There is a small voice that cropped up after I discovered my wife's affair and says to, but that voice is easily quashed.

I truly understand now when people say "you must end a current relationship before you begin a new one." Otherwise you live a lie and wind up like Dorian Gray.

I am going to try and be as supportive and understanding as I can and I will try to hang in waiting for her as long as possible. The children are a great inspiration in this. I am taking care of the kids, taking them to school, feeding, bathing, bed, etc. with them and it is turning out to be such a wonderful experience with them. Of course I can't stand the circumstances and it makes me want to cry that they may not have us both in their daily lives if my wife can't see the forest from the trees. Also the fact she is missing daily things saddens me. My six year old is desperately pushing for me to teach her to ride her bike without stabilizers/training wheels. I don't want my wife to miss this. I have grown so much closer to the children and I am thanful for that. I am aslo very thankful for the person I am becoming, although I wouldn't wish this method upon anyone. I know we have much work to do to get through this and it will not be easy.

Oh and I have no desire to go out with the "boys". I've had offers to, but I know that is not the right thing to do and I really don't want to. I haven't had a drink and we a very large and well stocked bar. I am feeling stonger everyday and I can see how I am improving and my relationship with my children is growing in leaps and bounds. It saddens me that my wife is not here.

Just an update. We had our daily call for the kids. I apologized for getting into the subject yesterday, which I didn't want to do anyway and the conversation was pleasant enough. She had some mutual friends of ours that I haven't spoke with lately. I told her the kids are doing fine and that we went to the park today and we're headed to the beach for a couple hours later to meet another family (something we do regularly with this other family). It was short, but pleasant enough.

I still feel tension and that she is annoyed with me. I am going to keep working on myself and the kids. I just hope she is able to come to terms with this before she comes back. What do I do if she is still not dealing with the affair and still concentrating on us? How can she think clearly if she hasn't dealt with that? Am I wrong in my thinking? Thanks for you input.

I do not have any great advice, but wanted to let you know you are not alone. I am the one who had the A first, and then my H very soon after. We both are hurting so much and are having a hard time being there for one another. My H's pain comes across as anger and there are times he treats me very poorly. I try to realize that is the consequence of what I did. The dual pain has made it very difficult to R as we are both hurting so badly. He is the one I would normally lean on, but he is not able to be there for me. And, my H does not not show much remorse. The other day, I was wondering whether it is because he blames me for his A. I could see why he might feel that way.

R has been very difficult for us. I feel for you... this is not easy at all and makes all the pain and damage you have caused each other so much harder to recover. I hope you are able to recover your M, as I hope we can recover ours.

Another update. Its 1 AM. Kids have been in bed since 7:30PM. The kids had a good time playing at the beach. Me and a friend discussed my problem a bit as well as his problems. His wife has been ill for sometime and they are very concerned about her health and are thinking this could possibly be Cancer. I have been using this friend too much too use as my sounding board for advice on my feelings and to just let out my anxiety.

So I spoke with another friend who gave me some real insight into some of our problems and things that she understands from speaking to my wife that I can address. My wife desires the family to sit down for breakfast, I always knew she wanted me there for dinner, but I either missed or wasn't paying attention to this area. I am trying to tune in to my wife's needs so that I can give enthusiastically. I also work from home and this has been an issue I am aware of. I am going to look for some reasonable office space this week. Finally, we have a large amount of debt which I am addressing and I am making very good progress and I hope to have a game plan by the end of the week.

Our friend also advised me that the last time they spoke (she was not aware of the affair as she probably would have rebuked my wife) that my wife was feeling very angry. So angry our friend thought it seemed dangerous. Isn't hindsight wonderful. Anyway, I think I am coming to terms with what has happened and why (as this obviously goes back well before either affair started).

I am feeling quite strong at the moment, for the kids and for us. I did the laundry (again, does this stuff ever stop building up <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I think I will mention how much I appreciate what she does for me and the kids in taking care of the house. Anyway, when I was laying out the clothes to dry I had this immense feeling of satisfaction and love at laying out the kids and our clothes with such love in every fold.

Why has it taken me so long to realize what I've had? I hope I haven't done too much damage for us to recover. From my side I know that I am strong enough (I am amazed at how much strength (mentally) I am acquiring) to make this work. I hope she finds this too. I have been really concentrating on learning the Love Busters and Emotional Needs and have been doing alot of self evaluation. I am taking Dorry's advice and I am going to concentrate on bettering myself and taking care of the kids. I would like a little input on if I should be expressing my appreciation right now to her or should I just be brief and pleasant on our daily calls as well as any other insight those of you reading see? Thanks for listening.

Damage is done, but recovery is always possible as long as both parties are willing to put in the elbow grease.

But remember, you weren't the only who has created damage, your wife added to this damage when she had her affair. She must also recognize any of the things she did that help contribute to why you had your affair. MORE importantly though - have YOU figured out why you had your affair. You need to learn why - was it a mid life crisis, was it neglect from your wife, was it restlessness, was it a way of coping with problems going on - whatever the deep down reason, it is YOUR resposibility to figure out why you had it and protect yourself from EVER falling into that trap again.

Continue to find ways to show your wife how much she means to you without telling her and be patient. She is probably still very angry at your affair since it's only been 3 months, and probably hasn't even had a chance to look her own or fathom what she has just done. That will come in time.

But no matter what - if you guys are going to fix this - there has to be NO contact with the other man or woman. Right now - your wife's anger is probably a combination of justifying her affair (Ie, the neglect, unappreciated feelings) and anger over your affair (i did all this for him and he went and cheated on me) and soon she will have another anger added - one for herself (how could I have done this too) but that may take some time for the anger at herself to come.

Keep reading HN/HN and LB and keep figuring yourself out. You can't help her figure things out - but you can make home very appealing, and show her what she is giving up - show her what how you are changing.

I would say when you talk to her, mention the appreciation - but don't dwell on it and read her reaction - if it's anger or sarcasm or nothing - don't go on with it - keep all calls breif and very pleasant. If she starts to argue or fight, pleasantly tell her you have to go. cause if you fight or argue - you are setting yourself up for failure and giving her more justifications for her anger. You can't fight with someone who wont fight, so ended the fights right now will keep her from getting more justifications.

Once again - i don't know if I am right - this is just what I had to do as a WS when my H left and was a WS.

BTW - my H and I are now 3 months into recovery from HIS A, and 9 months into recovery from my A now. And things finally seem to be settling down, progress made, and we are very much in love. It has been a very long hard 9 months.

Hang in there!

And I wanted to add,

Whenever she brings up your affair...don't argue with her, don't defend yourself, just say - Honey i love you and I am so sorry for what I have done. And leave it at that - you can never say it too much.

even if she doesn't say it back for hers - it's important. If she has anymore details or questions about yours - you need to answer those questions. And she needs to answer yours. But once those questions are answered, don't throw it at her in a fight - even if she throws yours at you - remember those words - Honey I am so sorry and I love you.

H said to me - we have hurt eachother unbelievably in the worse way we could have, and I never want us to end up there again. We may not agree on why we each had our affairs, nor understand why we each did - but we can agree that so much hurt was caused, and we never want to hurt eachother like that again.

I agreed with him - and we made a vow that once all the details were out about his, he would not bring up mine (after 6 months of throwing it in my face all the time) and I would not bring up his. I hated it at first, but I realized it kept us focused on the future.

After all I had all the details, why did I need to keep questioning him. So when I have a trigger or a bad moment I tell him I am hurting, and he hugs me, or comforts me...and when he is having a trigger or a bad moment, he does the same thing - but we don't bring up exactly why we are hurting. This keeps us from "one upping" eachother as when one affair is brought up - the other one comes into play too and both of us are in agony by the end of the discussion.

Thanks for the advice. Just one thing I am not clear on is what you mean by:



I don't understand how to get this message across the telephone. Should I also mention my laundry experience? I felt a sort of epiphany with that. However, that may only be for my benefit and she may think that "I used to feel that, but now you've blown it."

I have been doing alot of soul searching to discover why my affair began and I am still working though this. I have a good idea, but I wouldn't say I have realized all aspects or the problem. I am going to work especially hard on LBs as this is probably one of the biggest issues for her. I haven't treated her with the respect she deserved. I don't know if this is the time to tell her or just show her in my calls and on her return.

I am also concerned in that I usually go to London for 1 week a month. I haven't been back since June and they are desperate for me to come over. I am concerned that if she hasn't made a decision that she will fall back into the affair while I am gone and put us even further behind. I can't see I will be able to skip 4 months of going to London.

She also feels a bit of anger at the fact I have not gone for the past 3 months as she thinks I could have got out many times before. In the 2.5 years we have lived away from the UK I have been able to skip the odd month and one other time I skipped 3 trips, but she can't recall this as I think the rewriting of history is playing its part. I don't know what else I can do to explain this to her and put her mind at rest, if she decides she truly wants me. I always have tried to avoid going back to the UK (except when I was having my affair as the OW lived there) and I had slways (except for the 3 months of my affair) tried to avoid going. I would always have rather stayed here with my family.

My wife knows how much I love my kids and she still says I am a great Dad and regardless of what happens she wants me close to the children. My family commitment would only have been questioned during my affair, but I think she feels I am only here for the kids.

I am trying so hard to show her that is not the case and that I love her as much as my children. I believe the only way to do this is through my actions in our conversations and avoid LBs and concentrate on her ENs. I am trying to become more aware of her needs without having to ask every little detail, but I want to talk to her and get her advice. Anyway, I am rambling now. Thanks so much for your input. It is greatly appreciated.

Well it's hard to show appreciation with actions over the phone, you can just mention to her that you realize how much she does do for the family and how sorry you are that you never realized it before - but leave it at that.

I too like your wife, during my affair - built up so much of a rewrite of the marriage, I too believed my H was only in my marriage for convience and for the kids. It took alot of affection showing and things he did for me early in our first recovery for me to realize how wrong I was and how much he really did love me.

When she comes back - that is the time to show her those things.

When my H left he felt I had never loved him and even was convinced of things in our marriage that actually never happened. He was more convinced by the fact that I had an affair which proved to him the moments he was convinced about were true - since I did have an affair and must not love him. This justified him leaving and having his affair to feel loved, happy and that he was special - your wife may be justifying like he did.

I am not sure what your job is - but if you could postpone the trip it may help a bit - but if you need to go - it may be best to get it out of the way now and concentrate on her for the next few months.

Do you know for sure she isn't calling the OM (otherman) while she is at her family's home? Does her family know about her affair? if they do - will they work with you to ensure she isn't STILL in her affair (emotionally) as if she is still talking to him over the phone, then she is no where near out of the affair yet.

Thanks for the advice. I don't know for sure if she is still in contact with the OM. Her family are very aware of the situation and are trying all they can. Her sister has been very hard on her, but now I think her sister and father are trying to reason with her gently now. I would love to just shake her and wake her up, but I know there is nothing I can do on this front.

She also feels I am being controlling, which of course I want to be as far as stopping the EA/PA with OM. I don't want to control her, I want us to work together. We are both very free-spirited and this is one of the things I think were part of our love for one another. She has to be honest with herself and find her own path and I am trying to give her the time it takes for this to happen. I hope we can find a way to make amends and work on our marriage and ourselves. I just struggle with the fact that she can't stop contact for me or the kids to really think about our marriage and the kids. I am just going to keep working on myself and focusing on the kids.

I desperately could use some advice here. My WW is returning home tomorrow, without MIL. Me and the kids will pick her up at the airport with banners saying we love you. However, she has said she can't stand to even be in the same room as me right now. Her two weeks away to get OM out of her head have made her come to demonize/hate/despise me (something along those lines). I have told her I love her, but that I need her to make a decision to commit to trying or finishing. I don't want to lose her, but I am struggling with this unknown and my work is really suffering. I don't know how else to handle this. I know she feels I am pushing her for this decision, but shouldn't I be? I just don't know if I can actually work without an answer.

I have asked if she could commit just for the kids sake and if in 3 months or 6 months it is not working for us then we make a decsion to finish. She says right now she'd rather finish our relationship. I can't believe these are her true feelings. I think she has just escaped the last couple of weeks and her way of justifying her affair was to put all the blame on me, which is what she is basically doing. I think she is not able to come to terms with what she has done (maybe I'm wrong?) and it is easier for her to handle it this way. She says the affiars aren't even the big issue, it is all her cries for attention over the last 10 years that have been unmet are the problem. She knows I have changed and want to try, but she tells me they are just words and words are easy. How can she risk our children's future like this? What can I do to try and bring her around to even try. I can't even Plan A because she is either unwilling to try or is still in her affair. Please help!?! I need advice. Thanks.

She is in "the fog". She blames you for tearing apart her fantasy with OM.

There is no question it would be better for her to try to work it out with you. But, you are dealing with someone deep, deep in the fog.

I understand your desire for her to make a decision and move forward from here. Of course, she can't do that--if she could have made a decision, she would have. She is unable to make a decision.

You are not wrong in wanting a decision. The reality is that she can't make one. So, you either have to learn to live in limbo or you have to proceed with a divorce.

Q: I know she feels I am pushing her for this decision, but shouldn't I be? I
A: That is totally up to you. You have every moral and legal right for her to make a decision. I doubt that she can make a decision--I certainly couldn't a couple of weeks after the D-Day.

Q: How can she risk our children's future like this?
A: Because she is a self-absorbed a**hole right now. SHe isn't thinking clearly.

Q: What can I do to try and bring her around to even try.
A: Time is the only answer. If there were smelling salts to wake her up, we would bottle it, sell it and make a fortune. One thing you can do, which is risky, is to let her know exactly what the bottom of the valley floor looks like if she decides to jump from the ledge. Discuss with her bank accounts, living arrangements, visitation...the whole nasty, awful details of a divorce.

As often end in divorces. It is a fact of life.