Something another BS told me in regards to this issue:

On the issue of counseling, OF COURSE H feels "forced" to have an appointment for counseling. So what? The counseling and the possibility of recovery has to start somewhere and most of us find that some of the things we are "forced" to do are uncomfortable, at least in the beginning.

It's long road. But the journey begins with even the most reluctant "First Step."

I agree with BobPure that it is your H's right to proceed with the D.

After I filed for D, my WH asked me to counsel with Jennifer as well. I said I would, but she took it WAY faster than I was comfortable with. I had to have a separate appt. with her just to tell her so, that I felt REALLY pressured, etc. She respected that, explained why the process is usually pushed along, and sold me on it. That's not to say that's right for everyone.

Well stated Bob, that only Cinny's persistent actions can sneak around the filter to his heart. Action.



Give your H the time he needs to decide what he wants to do w/o pressure. These things can turn around very fast, too.

NotTooLost,

My H's appt with Jennifer next week is supposed to be just the two of them, so I am hoping that he can talk to her, without the fear of me listening in, and lay out what he is thinking and have her respond.

It was also your right, but you chose not to. And I know that you are thankful that you made that choice. I am just trying to get my H to consider the same thing.

Cinny

Why should your H reconcile with you ?
I am not being provocative. I want your view.

You betrayed him.

He gave you another chance in good faith.

You betrayed him again.

Why should he take you back this time ?

You seem to infer that your H is being unreasonable or unrighteous in persuing a divorce at this time. Can you not see you have EARNED this divorce ?

You must earn a recovery now,if that truly is what yo desire. No words. DEEDS. Persistent acts of love and faith. Unselfish ones. Sustainable ones.

yoru H seems amenable to recovery, he must be a GOOD man. a better man than I to even CONSIDER such, but Cinny you must EARN his trust this third time and IN NO WAY let him down.

All blessings. Miracles happen.

Bob,

I am not saying that my H is either unreasonable or unrighteous. I will tell you that his exact words, however, were there he knows that a D is not God's will for his life, but that people stand in the way of God's will all of the time.

So why do I think my H should take me back? I have an understanding now that I didn't before, and I have explained how this can be so. We were in MC, and while I did not always put forth 100% effort, part of the reason was because I didn't know how. I am a concrete person. I learn by reading and not just by talking. I need specific examples of what I should do. I'm not meeting your needs? Well, then tell me exactly what I can do that will meet your needs. I need this at least until it has become enough of a habit that I don't need to be told. But when we were in MC, things were talked about in an abstract way, and I didn't always know what to do. And we mostly talked about communication and the A. Yes, all wonderful things that needed to be discussed. But the conditions for the A happened because of a dwindling love bank (yes, the A happened because of my own selfish choices, but that was what provided the condition ... it was a mutual problem). We never did anything to build up each other's love banks. Neither of us really knew exactly how. I know what my needs are and what can be done to meet them. I want to know what his needs are and what can be done to meet them.

I have also created a plan of things that I can/will/have done to rebuild his trust. I could have probably done them before, yes. But I was stubborn. If you had asked me then, "Are you being stubborn?" I would have said no. I am able to recognize where my mistakes were and now I can change them.

I see how our recovery efforts failed before, and I can learn from those mistakes. And now I also have the benefit of a sounding board of people who have lived through this and can point out if I am going to do something else that would be a mistake.

Bob, my H is a good man. The best, in fact. He is the most wonderful man I have ever met. And I am trying to show him that every day, and I would like to show him that every day for the rest of my life.

Cinny
It is not God's WISH that we divorce for infidelity, but such is the insult that He ganted us permission to do so if we must.

If your H believes, as he infers, that he is doing a WRONG thing by God, he must consider his action in prayer.

Divorce is regrettable but permissable after trying to reconcile IMO. Your H will not prosper by trying to stand in the way of God's will.

All blessings.

Some questions/comments for you, Bob...

My H has agreed to sit down and pray with me sometime this week. He doesn't think that anything has changed in the situation and he is still not willing to consider reconciliation, but I feel this is at least a positive step.
For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them. Matthew 19:20

At what point do you say you have tried enough to reconcile? Do you think eight months is long enough before entertaining the thought of D?

8 months was a lot of effort to be thrown in his face. Long enough ? Not my call.

I think that one SECOND after discovery of a spouse affair is long enough to consider a divorce if it is right for that BS.

**Warning** This post may not come across in a way that I intend. It may be disjointed. My students were off-the-wall-crazy today and I am barely able to think. But I wanted to attempt a response anyways.

The reason I asked my question about 8 months because that was the point that my H decided that he did not see all of the improvement that he wanted and he started to withdraw and talked to our MC about D. He felt that I didn't meet his expectations about how I should act around his family in April (though he never really came out and shared those expectations with me).

I am not trying to place blame for my breach of NC. Regardless of the state of my M, I made the choice. The wrong choice.

But how do you truly know that D is right for you? Because you don't think you have the ability to offer grace and forgiveness? No one does. It is the strength you receive from God that gives you the ability to offer grace and forgiveness.

Interesting thought. This post was started because I wanted the advice from a couple who has been in a sitaution rather similar to mine, only a little worse, but still made it through ... yet most of the comments are not from them.

NotTooLost and WasLost71 ... where are you guys?

Hi cinnymd,

I'm not the person you were specifically looking for, but I've been following your story. I think I have a different perspective than Bob does because my FWH actually left me to be with OW, so I know what it's like for a WS to break NC.

Recovery takes, on average, two years. The reason it takes that long is because recovery has many different stages. The grief that accompanies each stage is different, as is the devastation.

No one can be forced to go through any of those stages (or to attempt recovery in the first place). I firmly believe that recovery can go "well" for a period of time and then the BS can reach a place beyond which s/he simply cannot go. At that point, even if it is months into recovery, the BS has the right to divorce.

Infidelity is a death blow to a marriage. Your marriage is already dead in many ways. For your H to pursue a divorce is to legalize what you have effectively done already.

I am not trying to be harsh; I see lots of pain in your posts and your desire to recover is something many BSs only dream of. I do see a desire to control the situation. My fear is that your desire to control will make your H feel that you have not changed one bit.

Why? Because an A is all about control. BSs often feel manipulated after they find out about the A. Their marriage (and their personal reality which included a faithful marriage) is destroyed through someone else's choices. They were not given all of the pieces of the puzzle and they are angry knowing that vital information was kept from them.

So the BS agrees to try to rebuild. Yet that agreement takes a great deal of courage - it feels as though you are handing your bleeding heart to the one person who has the power to damage it further. You know that the only way to recover is to put control of your heart back in the hands of the WS. A BS's only hope is that the WS keeps NC but they know that there isn't one thing they can do to make sure it happens.

Your choice to break NC demonstrated to your H that he was wrong to have been vulnerable. Once again, you denied your H the choice of an exclusive relationship within which to work on your problems. You wrested control away from him again.

Do you see that pressuring him in any way right now may only reinforce a sense that you haven't changed a bit and are still trying to manipulate your relationship with him?

I was disturbed to read:


Whose idea was this? You say "agreed," so I'm assuming it was yours.

The A and your choice to break NC were about you doing what you wanted. From what I see, you are desperately trying to control this situation and as a result are pressuring your husband to go along with it, ostensibly because you think this is what is best for him. It is still all about you.

My advice to you would be to create a safe space in which he can do what he wants. Unfortunately for you, that includes the possibility of divorce if he wants it. But if he feels that you are encouraging him to make decisions for himself, he may feel that this is not simply about what you so desperately want.

You've done a wonderful job at letting him now that you are sorry and that you want to work things out. He gets that. Now please give him space. Show him that you mean what you say by giving him the freedom to work his internal conflict out and by quietly continuing your own individual work.

You don't want to embark on recovery because he feels obligated to you or to God. You want him to want to be there. Only he can decide that and only in his time.

Blessings,

G

Gris,

I am sorry that my comment disturbed you. I do as I feel led by God. It is not necessarily me doing what I want ... it is me being obedient to God. Something I clearly wasn't doing before. This is a situation that is affecting the both of us, and we used to be the kind of couple that always sought God in everything we did. So I put for that suggestion, with the stipulation that he didn't have to agree. Everything that I ask has that stipulation. I put it as more of an offer that I am interested in. Most things he says no to, and I say thanks for responding. He said that would be ok.

As far as giving him space goes, I have been giving him plenty. Far more than I am comfortable with, and that kills me every day. So please don't assume that I am not, just because I haven't explicitly said that.

cinnymd,

I hope that you have seriously considered what I said to you in my previous post regarding slowly asking your H to go out with you. If you can convey to him that you simply enjoy his company and nothing more, he may begin to slowly turn around. If he still spews out the party line 'I still want a D' you simply say to him 'OK, can you please pass me the ketchup?'. The point is that you want to show him that you are not out to force him to remain married to you and that you will accept his decision regarding the fate of the marriage no matter what it is. If and when he chooses to work on rebuilding the marriage, he will be doing so because he beleives in you and not because you want it.

TMCM

Coffeeman,

I have tried, without being pushy, to get my H to just "hang out" with me. After I went deep sea fishing with my friend (a first for me ... I have never even been fishing), I offered to cook him some of the fish I caught (I caught a huge snapper and even a shark ... go me!). When I wanted to pray with him, I suggested we do it over dinner, and when he said he couldn't get away for that long from work, I suggsted Starbucks, because like you (or at least like your name suggests) ... his blood is 99% coffee.

I want to keep suggesting to just hang out, but I don't want to be pushy.

There is such a fine line between asking to do something and coming across as pushy, and I am afraid that I am quite the novice when it comes to figuring out just where that line is. Especially when some BS are telling to back off completely and give him his space, and others are telling me to make myself as desirable as possible.

I absolutely love your line about "Ok, please pass the ketchup." It put a smile to my face! Gold star for you! (Every once in a while, the teacher in me comes out on the boards!)

Cinny,
You are right, I did have the right to get a divorce. I filed for divorce. H was on the fence, and I couldn't/wouldn't take another day of painfully listening to him choose her over & over - it was unbearable. He told me to file if I was sure about it, so I did.

Then down the line I realized that all my prior "conditions" had been met - he had quit the job, sent a NC letter and had weeks of NC under his belt (which I knew was for real by secretly lurking on these boards), and he had agreed to have NC with OC as well, and had determined that was in HIS OWN best interest, as well as our DDs and mine, the OC and even OW.

I agreed to talk to Jennifer after I saw real brokenness, spiritual brokennes, in my H. Surrender.

Griselda's very wise I see from her post, reread her post and try not to see her as disturbed by your post, but really take what she has said to heart. Control is the opposite of surrender; something to think about.

I did decide that the Bible and my own heart called me to forgive my H who said he was truly sorry. I recognize that as a risk; but knowing him 15 years, two DD's together, and he is my best friend - I felt in my heart it was okay to give it another chance. Your H may or may not decide that is okay for him.

I just thought the way Gris worded the pain and risk, "it feels as though you are handing your bleeding heart to the one person who has the power to damage it further." Wow, Gris. That's just the feeling isn't it? And so after being lied to and cheated on and finding out, you pull yourself up by your bootstraps and hand your heart over again. And they do it to you again. Wow. As I said a long time ago, "If you haven't experienced a relapse, you do not know what you're missing." It's the most tremendously painful thing I could have imagined. My heart just completely shut down. It grew a wall around it that I had no control over. It's softened somewhat now, but I'll never be the same person. I'm changed. So is your husband. And he does not have to decide to hand that heart over to you again, bleeding and stomped on as it is.

He may decide in time that he wants to, but he may not. I am not trying to be pessimistic here, just realistic. You need to give him that space to decide for himself.

I do think Jennifer would have good advice for him, and I don't think it could hurt for him to talk to her, unless he feels pressured to do so (?)

cinny, your H needs to see more than remorse. He needs to see real change. You are showing him changes now, but unfortunately there is just no substitute for the passage of time that will prove those changes are real and not just an emotional response.

I do believe in the Harley's "high-pressure" approach to getting the relationship immediately back to neutral ground, where LBs stop and deposits start being made. I think the theory is (1) that halting LBs and meeting those top ENs stops the bleeding and (2) that there's no better way to eliminate doubt in the face of destroyed trust than to spend as much time together as possible. That being said, the BS is in so much pain and on such a roller coaster that it can't always start immediately. Leave the choice to counsel totally in your H's hands, with no guilt-trips if he decides he's not ready.

If you're providing space like you say you are, you're doing the right thing. It might be more space than you want to provide, and this might take longer than you want. You have to be prepared that to fix this relationship may actually mean divorce and remarriage later. You have to be OK with that, and continue to make the right choices anyway. That's the kind of thing that will get your H's attention, that will prove that none of this is a tactic to get what you want. If you truly believe in the principles espoused on these boards, you will incorporate them into the way you live. You wouldn't be the first WS to turn to plan A for their BS. But as anyone who's done it can tell you, it's hard, it's selfless, and it can take a long time.

If your H decides he must divorce you, make it be because of what you did before, not because of what you do now. Stay strong and don't let impatience or frustration or loneliness lead you to break NC.

Last night, I sent my H a text message to let him know I was out of class, and that was it. We had discussed meeting after my class. If he chose not to respond to my text message, I would leave it alone. About an hour and a half later, he called me (he almost never calls these days ... all conversation takes place in a text message) and told me he was leaving work and was on his way out to dinner with a friend. I let him know that I wasn't opposed to meeting later, and he said he would either call me or text message me when he was done with dinner. I told myself that if he didn't contact me, I would leave it alone, and I went to bed having said nothing. Then at around midnight or so, he finally sent me a text message letting me know he was done with dinner. He said he was tired (which was fine because I had been asleep, so I was clearly tired too) and HE ASKED ME to call him tomorrow to make a plan. I never said "H, when else can we meet?" I just asked him how was dinner and what did he eat at this new restaurant.

Then at around 2:30 or 3:00, he showed up at the house because he said he was telling his cousin that he missed me. I would love to hear those words and know that they meant more than he missed SF with me. But when he comes over at 2 a.m. this usually isn't the case, as it wasn't last night. I have always given in to my physical desires before and given him SF, at the expense of my own degraded feelings afterward.

My H got very angry, which I expected. One of the major problems in our M pre-A and even post-A was a lack of sexual desire on my part, and he is convinced that my desire now is purely circumstancial and would go back to zero the moment he came back. I tried to explain to him that it would remain, but he didn't want to hear it. Maybe because it was 3 a.m. But he eventually calmed down (and tried for more SF). We ended up falling asleep with nothing happening, and no apparent anger about it either.

When my pre-alarm went off this morning (I don't like the snooze button, so I set two alarms in the morning), my H grabbed my hand and held it for the next 5 minutes until my dreaded real alarm went off.

I now just noticed the time and I need to start getting ready for work. I even thought about calling in and taking a half day off from work just to lay next to my H longer, but being a teacher makes it really hard to take time off unless it is planned or you are really sick.

Yes, well so much for plan of going in to work anyways. I asked my H if he would like for me to call in and stay with him until 11, and he said yes. I was tired, and I figured I never use my sick days anyways, and the only thing I will be missing with my kids is reading. So I took half a day off to spend with my H.

I wish I could say that I spent it just laying next to him and sleeping and praying for us, but that man knows just how to push my buttons to get SF to the point where my all of my reason goes out the window and the physical part of me starts making all of the decisions. He's still my H, so having sex with him isn't going against the will of God. And I want to meet his EN every chance I get, so I give in.

Not sure what to make of all that, but intuitively it all sounds okay to me. I don't know, he misses you, he's reaching out, ... but I wonder where his head/heart is at regarding the A and the relationship? Is he still planning to talk to Jennifer this week alone?

From talking to his friend, apparently my H feels like he can't ever trust me again (understandably). I think he is unsure of how Marriage Builders is going to address that. Since the two of you have been counseling with Jennifer for much longer, do you have any advice on how I could answer that question?

I haven't asked him about if he is still going to talk to Jennifer. He told me on Sunday that he was still praying/thinking/reflecting and I want to give him that opportunity. If he doesn't say anything by Friday, I will ask him only because I know that if she calls and he doesn't answer, my credit card will still be charged.

On another positive note, when he left this morning, I asked him if he was still wanting to get together tonight to pray. His first response was "oh shoot I forgot about a tasting tonight but we can figure something out this week" (ok, so not a direct quote, but that was the general idea). I said ok. But then he said he might be able to find time tonight.