In our experience, MB builds trust by emphasizing togetherness -- by minimizing the time apart where trust is needed. If you guys are connected at the hip, if you call when you leave work and again when you get home, he knows where you are and where you've been. Spending all your available time together is a win-win; it replaces the need to trust with certainty about what you're up to, and it offers the maximum time to make love bank deposits.

Don't underestimate how much your BH's mind will wander when he doesn't know where you are. The mental and emotional trauma of the repeated lies we've told our BS's is enormous. I know we still deal with some of that ourselves. While the new boundaries apply to both of you, it's up to you cinny to go above and beyond in your efforts to prove your trustworthiness to your H. It takes a long time, maybe it's never really done, but don't make him ask you where you've been or what you've been up to. Be up front. I can tell you that after living the A, it is still refreshing to have nothing to hide.

Counseling with the Harleys is different than traditional marriage counseling which seems to emphasize communication. Jennifer is more like a marriage coach -- she speaks very bluntly about how to make MB ideas fit into your lives. I think that's the great value actually -- whereas your H commented that he can learn it by reading, I think having an expert look at your exact situation and recommend ways to implement MB every day was incredibly helpful. It saved our marriage, I have no doubt about that.

I see some great promise in what's going on there! You're doing the right thing by openly expressing interest and availability but leaving it up to him to reach out. Now you need to stay the course so that he can see it's consistent and different and real change over time. Keep it up! I'm really happy and hopeful for you!

WasLost...

I have already started doing one thing so that my H knows where I am and what I am up to. Each Sunday (sometimes Monday morning), I e-mail him a schedule of what I am doing that week ... where I am, what I am doing, and how he can reach me. I know right now he probably doesn't pay too much attention to it. I can tell he opens the e-mail, and right now that is enough for me. Because in my thinking, I am starting to do something now so that it will eventually become a habit. And I think it is a good habit to have, with or w/o the recovery of an A. I know my "calendar" is by no means comprehensive because it doesn't include what I am doing when I get off work each night or what I do on the weekends that wasn't planned (which for the most part is either sitting at my computer refreshing the marriage builders webpage during the week or hanging out with my friend Amy on the weekend). But I know that if my H and I were in a R, my weekends would be spent with him and my nights would be spent with him, and the times I weren't with him ... I'd be calling him. I always used to call him on my way home from work.

I am willing to go above and beyond so that his mind never has to wander.

He won't trust you again ever quite the way he trusted you before the A. BUT, he can develop trust in you (through you making the efforts to be open and forthcoming that my H is talking about) over time. He has to decide if that's the kind of relationship he wants, one where he always knows that this happened. He may find that even with a new partner, that he never trusts anyone the way he trusted you before all of this happened. It is truly a leap of faith. And faith in a person who has failed you is a very risky thing! And scary! And, as some of my friends or family probably think, stupid. But you know what? I know that some day this could happen again. But I also know my boundaries now and what I will do if it does. I also know that my H is taking the right precautions to make sure that it doesn't happen again. We have a lot more tools for meeting EN's, avoiding LB's (esp. managing anger), and putting that guard around our love banks/hearts to prevent deposits from others. How risky is that? I don't know.

It takes time before you know if you want to try again, too, I think. I felt very very pressured by Jennifer after I talked to her the first time. Here I had just filed for D (a decision that took me months to arrive at), and really deciding to be w/o him, and that the kids would survive, we had finally truly separated ALL of the finances, utilities, I had the house keys from him, we had been to Friend of the Court to set up official Parenting Time and Child Support, etc, and Jennifer's telling us to be joined at the hip? WHAT??????? Now THAT seemed to be moving WAY to fast for me! I hadn't even decided that I still wanted to give it a try for real! My heart had a moat around it a mile wide.

But she explained to me that the quickest way to get rid of those "yucky" feelings was to start making and accepting LoveBank deposits, and that was hard to do when we were apart. Plus no accountability for his time or whereabouts. So we gave it a try, and it really did help. But it was VERY uncomfortable for me at first.

Now, I have to say that at this point, my H was truly broken before God. He had been suicidal, hospitalized, and we wrote letters about where we were "at" as far as the relationship. Apparently the letter I sent him telling him that although I had some hope, mostly it was over in my mind just left him hopelessly reeling. It was a crisis-point for him, and a turning point. For the first time he really felt he had LOST EVERYTHING, the OW (by his own choice), me, living with our kids, his home, he had quit his job to do NC, and was living in his sister's attic basically. It was a real low point for him. He was looking at child support for our 2 girls, plus OC on the way, and things were looking pretty bleak. Brokenness is a thing that happens that can't really be provoked. I don't know if you're there yet or not. I can't tell, and some are better at gauging that than me. I thought my H was broken before the relapse, and he wasn't.

I know the word broken has a negative connotation to many, (i.e. Bonnie Raitt's new song "I Will Not Be Broken") but to us as Christians it is a positive. It describes complete and total surrender, not to your spouse, but to God. Humility, loss of all pride and arrogance, loss of the selfishness that created the mess, and the beginning of self-sacrifice and turning over our own desire to control to our great all-knowing mighty and powerful God.

Ok, this very well may not mean anything, and maybe it does, but my H called me last night when he was leaving work. First he said he was too tired to meet tonight, but after working 11 to 9, including a wine tasting (and not getting much sleep), I could hear it in his voice. He was exhausted. But he also told me this:

mws: My lawyer called me today.
cinny: Ok.
mws: We didn't talk. He left me a message.
cinny: Ok.
mws: I didn't call him back though.

It's very possible that my H was just stating some sort of fact for me. But the man knows me, and knows that I take everything very personally ... so either it is a good sign, or he was just being cruel in the way he presented his facts. I am hoping it is the first one.

Hard to say, give him time. Don't expect any of this to turn around quickly. Even if he came to you and told you today he is w/d the D, doesn't mean that couldn't change again later. That's feelings, unfortunately.

There is no substitute for time here, but things do seem like they're going well and not worse.

Have hope, and continue your good work on yourself!

Although I would love a quick turnaround because I am ready to start the life with my H that I know we always should have had, and could have ... I'm not expecting anything quick.

I continue to have hope and am relying on my faith in God here.

I am praying for the best for you guys.
Keep posting!

Thanks for your prayers, NotTooLost! My H told me last night that he thought it would be less stressful to plan to do something over the weekend instead of during the week, since he has the weekend off. I am excited about that. Without any time constraints, who knows how much we could do?!

I am, of course, hoping for the best, but know enough not to be expecting it.

So apparently that whole conversation about the lawyer was apparently my H just either
1. not knowing how his words would affect me
2. just plain cruelty

I found out today that he did call his lawyer back to schedule mediation. Not only that, but his lawyer tried to set something up for the end of this month ... which is next week. I heard that and I felt like I was going to throw up. I feel like I did when my H told me he wanted a D.

I thought things were maybe looking up, but now I am just not sure.

I hurt so bad right now. I can't stop crying. I know that my H and I can have the M we should have. I know we can be happy together. I just don't know how to get my H to believe that.

Stay on course, cinny. You are doing the right things for yourself and your spirit and your relationship with God. This is much bigger than fixing your marriage. The more you can incorporate what you've learned lately into your whole life and even "let go" of the marriage, the more of a chance your marriage may have. God is faithful to forgive all your sins, even these, and He loves to give good gifts to His children. The less we try to plan and guess what and when God will bless us, the more they will amaze you when they come.

The fact that your H is still moving forward toward mediation is not in and of itself a sign that hope is lost. The decision to divorce is painful and emotional and has some momentum of its own. It doesn't stop on a dime. Every chance you get, keep doing the right things. Now more than ever is the time to keep showing him what you'e learned and how you've changed, that you respect his decision and understand how hard it was for him. Let him watch you over time and observe the changes for himself; let the little things accumulate and speak for themselves.

Hang in there cinny. The best thing you can do for your M is to stick to this plan even if hope seems dim.

So my H told me that we could either hang out Saturday during the day or on Sunday. Then at 5 am, he sent me a text message saying "Can we get a massage tomorrow" (of course, since he hadn't gone to bed yet, "tomorrow" meant Saturday for him).

Well, we have an appointment for a couples massage at the Ritz. Pricey, yes. But also has very fond memories and that is what I am trying to stir up. Plus, I wanted to make sure to get an appointment where our massages would be in the same room, and not just at the same time, because that can also stir up a whole different kind of memory, if you know what I mean!

The only availabe appointment was at 6, so I am hoping that will work for him. H is still asleep since he didn't go to bed until almost 6 am, so I will just have to wait and seee.

Hi Cinny,
I think you must realize that the relationship is one track, and the legal divorce proceedings are another track. That meaning, one can be going swimmingly well toward recovery, and the other can be headed 180 degrees.
How long does D take in your state w/o children?

My attorney, experienced saint that she was, recognized right off the bat that the best thing was to file the D paperwork, set up child support and parenting time with friend of the court, and then let everything SIT for a couple months. Her decision to not let me engage in all kinds of discussion with my H saved me a lot of money and heartache.

Believe me, talking about who would take ownership of the new chair-and-a-half that I bought us as a joint Christmas present to I could fulfill his EN for affection (while he was on a business trip getting her pregnant in Mexico) was a MAJOR LOVE BUSTER.

That type of thing... it's hard to work on EN and LB when you are trying to split up your material possessions equitably. Lots of room for pain there!

Is there any way that the mediation appt. can be moved back to mid-late October?

If you did nothing else this weekend but decide jointly to just put thost decisions on hold for a few weeks I would consider the weekend well spent.

Best of luck, boy, that massage sure sounds good! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Although they tried to make the mediation for next week, my lawyer wasn't available until the October 24 so nothing is happening just yet.

I also ordered Torn Asunder from Amazon.com today (along with a present for H that I know he will appreciate). I realize now that we had put all of our faith on recovery into one thing, instead of exploring more than one option, which is what I am trying to do now.

I just realized that we never even prayed about who our MC would be. We just figured that because the MC we had was the first to call us back, that must have been God's way of saying "she's the one."

By the way, he hasn't really pressured much to talk about dividing up our possessions. And when he does, I am doing my best not to respond with a LB.

Yup, just say, "let's save that all for mediation." Because Oct. 24 is a good length of time away yet... good.

I've heard great things about Torn Asunder, haven't read that one myself but should.

I think a little thoughtful gift (w/o pressure of any kind) is always a good idea.

You know, one of these days I am going to actually learn how to give a surprise. I ended up telling my H today about what I had gotten him. Ever since H left, he has been quoting "Anchorman" literally every time that we talk, so I bought that for him. Also, a while ago, my parents had ordered authentic Chicago pizza for me as a present and had it delivered to the house. My H absolutely loved it, so I got him one. He seemed really happy when I told him about all that. So the fact that it isn't a surprise is alright, I guess.

I think the day went pretty well today. We got to the Ritz at around 3:30. Our appointment wasn't until 6, so we had some lunch and then hung out by the pool. Before our massage, we hung out in the "co-ed" room. As I read a Cosmo magazine, I pointed out an article to him about SF, and he smiled. The massages were, of course, amazing. After that, we hung out by the pool again and then spent some alone time showering and what not. After that, we found a couch in the hotel and sat for a while. I had wanted to pray together, but he told me that he didn't know what to say. We talked, and then eventually I ended up praying for the two of us, which of course made me cry (I can't talk to God about this whole situation without tearing up). Then we went to the bar and had a drink together before we parted ways at around 9 p.m.

I talked to his friend later and H told his friend that he had a really good time, which is good.

I ended up having the chance to meet his top two EN. H is really into wine, so the fact that we sat together and I drank with him met his need for recreational companionship. And I was able to, quite selflessly, meet his SF need as well.

H mentioned that he was going to try and sit down this weekend and formulate an e-mail sharing his thoughts. I'm not quite sure how to take that. It is good that he wants to communicate with me, but I am afraid that if he wants to do it in an e-mail that it won't be anything good.

So that's my latest update.

By the way, I found out that my H already has Torn Asunder. Hopefully he read it, and some of the things it says will eventually sink in. And hopefully he will let me borrow it so I can just return the one that I bought and save some money!

Cinny

I HATE It that I am taking the role of 'naysayer' here but I feel burdened to say what I perceive.

You are treating your H as if he were WAYWARD. As if the course of action he is taking is somehow uninformed, wrong or ungodly.

As if 'torn Asunder' will teach him the error of his ways and he will come to his senses and welcome your renewed efforts at recovery with open arms.

"TA" is a great book for Christians facing infidelity, but Carder DOES NOT rule out divorce as an option ANYWHERE in the book.

He points out that divorce is not a pain-free resolution to infidelity, and that most marriges are reconcilable with effort.

Bear in mind your H's considerable efforts in recovery already, do not be surprised if he reads SUPPORT for his decision to divorce you , rather than a compulsion not to.

Your H is RIGHTEOUS in his persuit of a divorce Cinny. DO not delude yourself as to how you have betrayed him in your affair and the way you rejected his attempts at recovery and forgiveness. And you are betraying him NOW by not agreeing with his righteousness in his current course of action.

The best recoveries I have seen on these boards have been characterised by both spouses taking full responsibility with no mitigation for their actions.

Your H may have not met your ENS pre-A, or whatever, and he must not bame you for that. You also contributed to an unsatisfying marrige before your affair, and you had an affair, and betrayed him again by rejecting his rcovery effrots.

And NOW you seem to be considering your H as erring in his choice to divorce you. That he can be made to 'see the light'.

Cinny OWN your behaviour. No 'ifs' or 'buts'. Once your H sees you as TRULY recognising that you FULLY DESERVE a divorce and his lack of trust right now, can he begin to trust you again, and maybe see a reconciliation with you IME. DO you not see that? You trying to convince him different is betrayal.

I ACHE for you two to be reconciled, but I have NEVER seen it happen while the WS does not OWN the facts of the situation.

ALL blessings. Praying for you.

Cinny,

Give your H a copy of His Needs/Her Needs. Communication between the genders is critical not just in everyday life but more so in recovery.

As a BS, your H is going through the stages of grieiving. I believe I mentioned it before. If not, please go to the link in my sig. line.

Let your H know that some of us in his position would give our right arm to have an Xws in recovery. Not to make you look better than life but if he gets to read what some of us have to deal with just to get to where you as an Xws are at, well.....for some of us that took years.

You and your H are young. Your lives are ahead of you and one thing you don't want t/d is make regrets.

Now what I am gonna say is critical. Your H shows a need for SF which is normal. You don't. Please go see a doctor as to why. C/b hormonal or psychological..... the doctor can help. In the book His Needs/Her Needs you will find that the woman's drive starts in her mind, the man's is a bit more south. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> That piece of knowledge helps a lot. It also will explain your H's anger after or at attempts of SF and your distain for not having your SF needs met. Some of us didn't find out about that difference until many years in to our Ms. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Still we managed to survive but it sure would have been easier to know that 1st.

You need to read that book also. It will give you good communication pointers as you have interactions with others and since you are a teacher, you get to see the development of 'some' of the ENs in your students (not the SF ones of course).

L.

Orchid,

I'll start with responding you to you first, because your post is a little easier to respond to. I have read HN/HN, and my H has at least read most of it. As far as SF goes, I understand that it was completely a mental thing that I had a problem with, and I have explored that. I no longer have a problem in that area though. I am completely comfortable in meeting that need, and I desire it for myself as well. I have told my H about this. (Because one of his greatest fears is that if he came back, SF would not be there).

Now for my response to Bob. I don't disagree with my H that he has the right to D me. I am not unwilling to take the blame for my own actions. You said
And that is just what I am trying to get my H to see. I did not know how to put forth effort in the right places before. I am trying to get my H to see that. Our first attempt at reconciliation did not fail because I did not try. I tried very hard. And our first attempt did not fail because I broke NC ... it had already failed before that. That is no excuse for breaking NC. I know that. What I did was wrong, plain and simple. I recognize that.

I am not trying to convince him that my previous actions don't deserve a D. I am trying to get him to see that my current and future actions can give us a chance at a happy M.

I know that you feel burdened to say what you perceive, but your perceptions are off. If I learned anything in MC, it would have been a lot more effective if you had said "Your words make it come across that you aren't owning your behavior" instead of saying "You need to own your behavior." Your words carry great power, Bob. My MC taught me that. Be very careful how you put them.

I wrote a letter to my H this morning. Before I sent it, I wanted to get the opinion of some BS's.

H,

My mind is always going a million miles a minute trying to figure out how we got to this place. I mean, yes, ultimately it was my own selfish and immature decisions. But what got us to the point where I felt like the only way I could have my needs met was by calling someone else?

I have been thinking a lot about the marriage counseling that we had. I am not blaming MC for where we are now. She did what she thought we needed. But we just accepted that. We never prayed about whether or not she was the right marriage counselor for us. We just decided that because she was the first person to call us, that was God's way of telling us she was right. Maybe we needed more patience and should have prayed over that decision. And maybe what Lynne thought we needed was only a part of what we needed. Talking about our past gave us a lot of understanding of how we got to where we were. Working on our communication skills was helpful in understanding ways in which we failed each other before and how to improve on that. But you know, our past has always been there. Our communication was always less than good. But we still got married. We were still happy. Things weren't great, but in dating, we were happy. Why? Because we loved each other. We were in love with each other. And somewhere along the away, we stopped doing the things that kept that feeling of love for each other going. But we never worked on any of that in our marriage counseling. We put all of our faith and efforts into one thing, and that was our mistake. We never addressed the whole picture. As MC would say, "we were setting ourselves up for failure."

You may think this is too little too late, but God has taught me that it is better late than never.