name? We need a name so you can get his # and call his house to see if there is W there. Also, where he works is important.

ooooooooooooh, if you had his name, you could probably get a P.I. to do a basic background check on him for cheap.

p.s. your D needs to understand that it is NOT appropriate for a married woman to have "relationships" with men and have them over to her apartment. Your W is now using your kids to try and normalize her affair. Don't allow her to use them in this way, TMR. You have EVERY RIGHT to keep those kids away from strangers you do not know and approve of.

ya know, TMR, there is no reason why you can't address this with your W. She is your W and you have every right to know if she is seeing someone. You also have a right to know who she is exposing these children to, and until you have met him and given your approval [which she won't do, of course] your children should not be allowed to visit there. They should not be dragged into this affair or used to normalize her affair.

***You have EVERY RIGHT to keep those kids away from strangers you do not know and approve of.***

If I may add -- you not only have the right to do this, you have a RESPONSIBILITY to stop your children from being used as go-betweens in your wife's affair. If you do nothing here, you are begging to lose custody of these children if/when it comes to that -- to say nothing of what your failure to protect them is going to do to your kids when they are older and look back at all this, and wonder why you didn't lift a finger to get them out of this sordid situation.
Mulan

This is not true, legally, depending on what state this family resides in.

You'd be mighty surprised how these types of laws differ state to state. Whereas, adultery, and domestic violence may be illegal, it usually doesn't hold any weight in child custody, visitation matters. We may want to be careful making assumptions about what legal rights someone has.

I see way too many horses before the carts. To much vague information.

There's far more to this story, your W has not chosen to tell you where she is living. Why? You know the answer to this question. Something doesn't add up. Especially with grown children that can easily give out information. Especially the older ones. Why was the eldest son left behind?

You said your M never really recovered after your A. Has your W ever forgiven you for the A? Has she led her life, saving money to move into her own place?

Do not question the children.

Why have you not sought any legal advice in regards to your children?

Why was it okay for your wife to get her own apartment?

How did she fund the rent, furniture, utilities, with a few small children?

Need more info, I can't connect the dots here.

bij, I agree with what you said about exposing them to strangers, but they do not have a legal seperation agreement. He has a moral obligation, as a father, to know to whom his children are being exposed and to protect them.

I do have his first name but not a last.
She moved out after 7 months of wanting to separate. During that time she has avoided me and alientated my oldest son. He felt like his mom doesn't care about him and he is really mad at her for wanting to do this. He has become angry at his brother and sisters, so separating them was a good idea at this point.
I have no idea what is going on in my wife's head right now and it is driving me crazy trying to figure this out. She didn't want me to know where she lives because I would interfere with her "space" and come around probably at bad times. I went to her work once and she was sitting in the parking lot talking to someone and another time she was in her car talking on the phone...she got very angry at me for coming to her work which of course raised large red flags for me.
The way that she could afford the rent was that she left all the bills for me to pay this last month plus her father passed away recently and she had a little money from him. I thought it was ok for her to get the apartment because she needed to stop running from me(she was gone all the time) and be a mother to her kids again. When she moved out she didn't take everything of hers just the bare neccesities.
My wife thought that she had forgiven me for the A but now she she is feeling all the negatives of our relationship together. It took me 4 years to forgive myself for what I did. It was the end of last year when I finally felt like I was done hating myself for waht I did to her.
I don't want my kids exposed to an affair and I ask myself is there anyway this relationship could be innocent?
I will be seeing my wife tonight after work and I am not sure if I should talk to her about this man or not. I do not want to push my wife away with accusaations. I want the truth and then decide what is best for me, my kids, and her. I am hoping to buy myself some time here but I feel like I am twisting in the wind

TMR, your main goal should be to find out the truth. If you think it will not help to ask her, then don't ask her. But as far as pushing her away, she can't be pushed away any farther. If it were me, I would simply ask who this man is and watch her reaction. Don't make any accustations, just ask.

Then.........find out who this is and what is going on here. That is your first priority.

During these 7 months, what was your reaction for her desire to seperate? Did you agree?

It seems she was getting her ducks in a row, and you knew this, once the final finances were in order for her, she left.



This is clearly a weighted issue. And she could very well be in a revenge A, or she really has detached herself during the last 4 years. If you've spent the last 3 hating yourself, how much energy focused on your marriage? What have the two of you done to recover?

She doesn't sound like a serial cheater, this is obviously a new dynamic for her.

How old is your W?

To be perfectly honest, I don't think jumping through hoops to find out if there is an A, is going to do any good right now.

Read up on Plan A first, get the idea of what you're supposed to accomplish. I don't think she believes she's in an A.

You said this has only been 3 weeks, and she got her own place just prior to that ?

Many people believe that the marriage is severed once a seperate residence is set up.

I know legally this isn't the case, just getting inside the woman's head.

bij, with all due respect, he needs to do both. He needs to know what is going on here in order to know how to proceed. If it is an affair, he has to expose it in order to cause ruin to the affair. He can't very well do that if he is operating in the dark. He has been in the dark far too long as it is. It doesn't matter if his W feels her marriage is severed, it isn't.

In addition to findng out the facts, he needs to expose and start practicing the other fundamentals of Plan A. But exposure is a key element of Plan A and he can't very well do that if he doesn't know what is going on here.

TMR, when you ask her about this "friend" remind her that there is no reason she shouldn't tell you about him if he is truly a friend. I would be interested in her reaction.

TMR-

I understand what you're going through, you are rationalizing things, and hoping for the best....but fearing the worst, I think we have all pretty much been there, but now it's time for action!!!! Let me break down your last post for ya'.

She was talking herself *into* separating from you because she was interested in this other man.



You son was old enough to realize that all was not well in Fogtown, and must have been giving her some friction about it.



He's most likely angry that his siblings are going along with all of this, but, it's of course, not their fault, their mother is making them believe this is all hunky dory.



Interfering with her *space* means interfering in her *affair*



Hmmmm does she work with the OM perhaps??? And YES her being upset that you'd come to her work SHOULD send up red flags.



You should feel remorse for what you've done, that part is fine.....but your Wayward Wife (and she is) is using that to justify what she is doing......it's a crutch, and it's no better for her to be doing to you, than it was for you to do to her.



ABSOLUTELY NOT.........it's not innocent, people who have nothing to hide HIDE NOTHING. If she simply didn't want to be married anymore, and that was it, she wouldn't be doing all the cloak and daggar stuff.

I don't know about confronting her right away, I think maybe you should be getting every shred of information you can on her activities at this juncture.

*Does she have a cellphone? If so, you need to go online and try to access the account, usually you only need the persons social security number and their zip code...possibly their address.

*Find out WHO this *friend* is.....find out if they work together or whatever.....you'll need this information. If you can't hire a private detective, see if one of your friends might be willing to do a little investigating for you, unless you think you can do it without her catching on.

You're kind of at a stand still until you find out some information, so try not to concentrate on that *twisting in the wind* feeling, put your efforts towards finding out what's going on.

Best of luck, and if I can be of any further assistance, feel free to e-mail me.

-Caren

I am trying to find out the truth but I seem to be stepping on everyone's toes trying find out. I don't want her to file and I am trying to buy time for things to cool off. This guy coming into the picture clouds things for me since I don't know his intentions or hers.
During the 7 months since she first dropped the bomb saying she didn't love me anymore and wanted to separate, I gave her her space the best I could. I didn't question the hours that she worked or who she went out with. I was trying to be very supportive of her need to figure out what was wrong or what her feelings were towards me. During that time I wouldn't call her on the phone she would call me. We did things as a family trying to reconnect the family. We went on dates and enjoyed each others company. After these dates she would make herself scarce and I wouldn't see her much for a few days. She told me that she enjoyed me so much that it scared her. She was afraid that she would let her guard down and let me back in her life so I could hurt her again. No matter what changes I made it had little or no affect.
About a month ago we went to my wifes 20 yr class reunion. There she met a bunch of friends that she talked to...most of her friends from high school were guys BTW. She met a bunch of people that were divorced and happy she said. She took a lot away from that weekend. On our drive home I realized that she wanted her friends more than she wanted me and I suggested that she think about going back home. She made plans to go home (home is CA, we live in UT) but her plans changed when she started adding up how much it would cost to move and live there versus here. I always thought that she was stashing money somewhere for this event but it turns out she didn't. Most of her plans seem to be knee jerk reactions instead of well thought out rational plans.
I think my wife has detached herself from the marriage in the past 4 years. We talked about what I did but I realize now that it wasn't talk that resolved anything. Sex was difficult and frustrating for me and now I know that she wasn't emotionally in our marriage. It does break my heart that I was so ignorant to my wife's needs.

TMR-

STOP!!!....STOP rationalizing what she's doing!!!!! Stop beating yourself up about something in the past you CANNOT change......I know you're scared, but doing things, like finding out information, exposing the *A* is not going to "Make her file"......but giving her *space* sure will......she needed space to carry on her affair with your blessing....so she could *find herself*.....that's horse-sh*t.

Seeing *happy divorced people* is Bull crap too.....that's just the reason she's giving you so she doesn't have to tell you she's being slimey.

She's telling you what she has to tell you to get her *fix*....that's all.....it doesn't have ANYTHING to do with your past sins........she's using that to cover her CURRENT sins. (They have some weird need to not be the bad guy)

She IS having an affair................BALL IS IN YOUR COURT NOW, what are YOU going to do about it?

-Caren

TMR, here is the thing: she is likely going to file if this affair continues to grow. Your marriage will survive some anger, it won't survive an affair. I strongly suspect that your W is in an affair and that is what will lead to the end of your marriage. It is destroying your marriage as we speak. What I am suggesting will STOP that destruction. In order to save your marriage you must end this affair. In order to hasten the end/end this affair, you must EXPOSE it. And in order to expose anything, you must know what is going on.

Exposure is simply the most potent tool against an affair.It creates great conflict and embarrassment in an affair, causing the affairees to see themselves through the eyes of others. This is a HUGE reality check.

So far, your W has operated in complete secrecy with absolutely NO conflict in her fantasy. She has been allowed to leave her family in complete peace, almost endorsement, and is even allowed to add some false respectibility into it by dragging her children into it.

The bottom line, TMR, is that you continue to do nothing, you will get what you are getting: NOTHING. And nothing is leading you to a big fat divorce. So, if you want to save your marriage, its time to quit sitting around and get to work.

TMR, I would add that you have become her full fledged enabler. More appeasement and willful blindness will result in the sure death of your marriage.

I completely agree Mel. I don't have a crystal ball, and I obviously don't know the situation, but my knee jerk reaction on this is that there's nobody to expose to.

If she's willing to bring this person around her children, she's covered those bases already. I believe if she's confronted with proof, she wouldn't even deny it.

There's no mention that the OM is M. I'm getting the impression it's just the opposite, so who else is there to expose to?

Do you think if you come right out and ask your W if she is seeing someone, would she tell you?

From what I'm reading in your communication styles, it appears you are both very open, even discussing her moving home to CA at one point, until she realized realistically it wasn't an option.

The 13 year old is there. That's old enough to know and understand what's going on. So it's not being hidden.

She reacts to sudden visits at her job because she's trying to put some control around her life. As a FBS, I remember that feeling of spinning chaos. The previous A has never been resolved, and I think the efforts need to go back that far.

It's funny, although I personally would not have a revenge A, I can perfectly accept the fact that most BS, IMHO, would not begrudge a revenge A. Those wounds run deep.

She put out some warning flares, that she was getting ready to flee, the flight or fight theory. And she was given wings. That is where I see there might be some complications.

Sometimes, when the flight instinct takes over, and there's no boundaries, no one reaching out and saying, let's work this out, I don't want to lose this, I want to fight to make this work, we can fix this....we're too often left with the feeling that there's nothing to stay for.

I don't think it's going to require fancy footwork. I'd ask her, and I think she'll answer you. Then you can come up with a concrete course of action.

I agree that the worst course of action is inaction, but I'm also leaning towards not pushing too hard too fast.

bij, he doesn't know if there is an OM, but all the signs are there, and have been there for a LONG TIME. That is why he has to investigate. I don't believe for a minute that she just up and moved out unless there was an affair. Especially after disappearing on a regular basis for months before she left. Perhaps theres not, but I don't believe it for a minute.

He doesn't KNOW if the OM is married or not. But even if he's not, there are numerous exposure opportunities. Exposure is not just limited to married OP's.

A 13 year old is too young to be exposed to an affair, PERIOD, and should be removed from the situation. He has an obligation to protect her from his W's affair.

The bottom line, bij, is that he has to find out what is really going on here and he won't know that until he gets to work and investigates.

Thanks for all of your replies and insight..this is very valuable to me. It is getting late so I will respond to all of you tomorrow. I just want to add that tonight I went and saw my wife at work. We had a home repair that we had to do and she had gotten the stuff we needed to fix it. She was sorry that she couldn't come down and help and was glad that I was willing to do this on my own (this was strange hearing her say this) she asked if I was hungry and she got me some dinner, asked if I was doing good, asked if I was sleeping well. She said she was worried about me and I told her I was concerned for her. Told her it was nice to see her and she replied "it was really nice to see you". The looks that she gave me were really nice and made me feel like she still cared. No mention of the relationship or anyone...

TMR-

The fact that your wife's dad recently passed is a HUGE red flag. Somethhing I ran across on divorcemag.com:

"People are most likely to get into these romantic
affairs at the turning points of life: when their
parents die or their children grow up; when they
suffer health crises or are under pressure to give up
an addiction; when they achieve an unexpected level of
job success or job failure; or when their first child
is born-any situation in which they must face a lot of
reality and grow up. The better the marriage, the
saner and more sensible the spouse, the more alienated
the romantic is likely to feel. Romantic affairs
happen in good marriages even more often than in bad
ones."

I know you want to believe this relationship is innocent, I denied my WW's until I discovered some concrete proof, and HAD to accept it. Please read, read, read.

My WW's dad passed away about 1.5 years before she began her A...he was her world, and he died unexpectedly...


TM

So now I have come to the conclusion that I must stop pushing my wife and not ask questions about what she is doing. No questioning about an affair or divorce. My kids miss me more than I thought they would and I am going to protect them the best I can. I am going to find out who this person is and what he is doing with my wife as soon as I can. Priority one is making sure my kids are taken care of the best possible way.