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But Bill said "I am saddened by the morality of my friends at MB", which is condescent to many of us, and has a very judgemental and "holier than thou" tone.
Heh. I guess I was pre-scient - except that I missed that he could be accused of being both hypocritical and holier-than-thou.

What in the world is the problem with Bill being saddened by seeing his friends behave in ways he believes are self-destructive? Would you rather that he be happy to see them hurting themselves? Heck, I imagine that he's none too happy about his own behavior, so there's nothing holier-than-thou about it.

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First of all, Bill and I are not one and the same

I never said you were.

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Just because someone does not think their behavior is immoral, thereby allowing them to live up to their own standards, they are automatically worthy of more respect than a person who has high standards of what he feels SHOULD be done, yet sometimes fails in trying to live up to those standards?

I never said that either. I said I respect Check's efforts to live up to his standards, just like I respect your and Bill's efforts to live up to yours.

What I take issue with is Bill passing judgement on others' morality, because as we all agree, no one is perfect or above reproach. To make comments on anyone's morality is a very strong attack on someone's entire persona - I think you'll agree.

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I am not arguing on whether Check's standards are low or high.

You are not, but Bill was.

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Furthermore, if someone thinks its ok to commit adultery and lives up to their own standards... is that more worthy of respect than someone who thinks it's wrong to commit adultery and yet sadly goes against those beliefs only to then feel terrible about what they did, and seek healing, restoration and forgiveness?

We can go in circles all night long here, FHL. The fact is that I never did compare people's moralities, because it is not up to me. I said I respect Check, and I respect you. We all know who started comparing moralities on this thread, and it wasn't me. As you said to me yourself, please don't put words in my mouth.


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And btw, I NEVER called Check a hypocrite. I did point out that his statements/attitudes were inconsistent (or at least seem so to me), but I never typed the word hypocrite in that post you were referring to. Please don't put words in my mouth.

You never used the word, you are right. But the description you used is the classic definition of "hypocrite", so why split hairs?

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"Perhaps your initial post was not well phrased by you, and perhaps you didn't really mean to say that you were saddened by the morality of your MB friends, because, let's face it, one can only be saddened by a perceived low morality of their friends, not a high one. Can you see how that can be very hurtful to anyone who perceives themselves to be on the receiving end of that comment?"

AGG, something that I, and many others who share similar beliefs, believe pretty strongly is that "the wounds of a friend are better than the kiss of an enemy" concept. In other words, sometimes you point out things that may seem to "wound" because you care about people. Sometimes to say nothing is NOT the most caring or loving thing you can do.

To understand this, it is necesssary to try and put yourself in another's position....just try to imagine this from LH's POV. Let's say you go to the dentist. The dentist sees that you have a gum condition and also need a root canal. He knows that this is probably due in large part to you not flossing regularly. But instead of pointing out the problem, he just says nothing. After all, it will cause you some distress to find out you have these problems. Plus, he himself doesn't floss regularly, so wouldn't it be hypocritical to tell you that it would be best for you to floss regularly?

Now I can hear the argument already - "But the dentist has a duty as a dr to tell you your problems whereas LH has no duty and should mind his own business." Here is where trying to understand and be tolerant of religious beliefs comes in. As a Christain, LH feels it IS his duty to point out what he deeply feels is damaging (or whatver word you want to use) behavior. Why? Because that IS the loving thing to do, in his view. Because Check or a couple others are not the only ones affected by the FWB thread or others like it. This is a public forum. Hundreds read threads that never post. LH sees behavior that he views (and has a right to view) as being destructive, and the feels he has a duty and a right to point out its destructiveness.

AGG, you yourself said that you've read LH's posts for a long time. You should know where his heart is. Is it to hurt people and cause drama, etc? If not - if that is not the behavior you've seen from him for the past 5 years, why are you so quick to condemn his thoughts, attitudes, and actions - even going so far as to outrightly call him a hypocrite because of ONE thread that you find offensive? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


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You never used the word, you are right. But the description you used is the classic definition of "hypocrite", so why split hairs?

I'll tell you why, because I am not so quick to call people derogatory terms or throw around the label "hypocrite".


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And btw, I NEVER called Check a hypocrite.
Hey, I'll draw heat for that one:

Check is a hypocrite.

I see no need to waffle on the matter or to try to soften it. Check has castigated others for doing exactly what he has done himself right here on this forum, and then he has proclaimed his own innocence. I'm sure he believes in his innocence, but I believe that still qualifies as hypocrisy.

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"It's really a no-win situation. The mere suggestion of an absolute system of morality is enough to get people up in arms; the only politically correct stance is one which allows everyone to define their own morality. Thus we see CheckUrHeart demanding that his moral system be respected.

The deep irony here is that so many people here have been deeply wounded by the behavior of their former (or soon-to-be-former) spouses, whose moral faults they have no problem pointing out. But, by modern-day existential standards, shouldn't the admittedly divergent moral standards of those wayward spouses be respected?"

All my thoughts, just worded better.

I was just fixing to post something very similar.

You know, these arguements really boil down to one thing.

Those who have "relativism" system of belief DEMAND that everyone accepts their belief system and never challenge it. Why? Because it is conflicts with their belief that everyone gets to choose their own path and whatever that is is right for them and no one else should say anything about it.

Tolerance! Tolerance! Tolerance! is the cry....

Yet where is the tolerance for those who share conflictin beliefs?

It is not there.

But they will INSIST that it IS there, because they know that it would be inconsistent with their beliefs not to be tolerant.

Therefore they will defend their own tolerance of others to the death, all the while screaming about the travesty that a fundamental Christian would DARE to share his own beliefs.

Hmmmmm..........


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(((AGoodGuy)))

“””I have read your posts here for years, and I know that you mean well . I always enjoy reading your posts, and typically agree with you, as we share similar outlooks on marriage and relationships.”””

I appreciate that AGG, I’ve enjoyed yours over the years as well and if I’m thinking correctly we’ve even e-mailed a time or two. That we disagree is fine with me, I will further say that being able to disagree respectfully should be noted on threads throughout these boards.

”””Perhaps your initial post was not well phrased by you, and perhaps you didn't really mean to say that you were saddened by the morality of your MB friends, because, let's face it, one can only be saddened by a perceived low morality of their friends, not a high one. Can you see how that can be very hurtful to anyone who perceives themselves to be on the receiving end of that comment?”””

First let me say that it’s obvious that I didn’t phrase things well, that much I totally agree with. But frankly, AGG I am saddened by the moral decline of America as evident for even having a need for a board such as this one. That saddens me. I have a feeling of sadness, that feeling is true and valid.

”””You say that you addressed your thread primarily to the Christians on this site, but I am sure you know that there are many others on this board who have no interest in Christianity, and do not want to be judged for not subscribing to your beliefs.”””

What I don’t understand is if you or someone else doesn’t like it, why not stay away from it. I have absolutely no interest in FWB and quite honestly find it offensive but I honor your right to speak about it. Why can’t that same respect be given me?


“””Like you said, this is a marriage building forum, not a religion discussion board.”””

Religious people get married too, so why can’t they safely share here?

“””is quite unpleasant for the rest of us.”””

So again, it’s ok for others to talk of thing unpleasant to me but not ok for me to talk of unpleasant things. AGG, that’s wrong. We all have a place here. That you and I can respectfully disagree is awesome, not everyone is that way.

”””Preaching about morality is a very slippery slope, especially when the person preaching has themselves shown morality inconsistent with their preaching:”””

AGG, because I sinned once or a million times doesn’t shed a light on me as a Christian or a moral person for that matter. And quite frankly after you having so much knowledge of me, my posts, and my beliefs over the years I’m offended by your comment but I also understand. We have different views.

”””So you chose to ignore the very morality that you preach when it came to your own choices, but then you come back here and tell others that their morality saddens you? Doesn't that seem a bit hypocritical?”””

Though Knight did a great job expanding on things I have been waiting for the ‘H’ word to seep into this. Webster defines a hypocrite as “a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion”. AGG this is around my 3,144th post, I challenge anyone to read through a single one of them and show me where I’ve put up a false appearance of anything. I have been open and honest from the day I came here. I’ve confessed my short coming through many trials in my life. It’s all there for the reading. And yes, yes, God, yes, I have fallen short of the glory of God many times and any honest Christian will fall short every day. The bar is perfection and we can’t reach that no matter how hard we try. It’s what we learn from our experiences and teach others based upon our hard won knowledge that define us.

“””You know, I never understood how someone can choose to do something that they believed to be wrong, but then explain it away with a simple "we are all sinners, I have repented and have been forgiven" excuse.”””

You know AGG, you had me in the beginning of the sentence and showed some color with the last word. Because you don’t understand something does not invalidate it. If you are not a Christian, I wouldn’t expect you to understand. Just like I don’t understand how someone can surf porn, have an affair, or for that matter have a FWB relationship.

“””I would be impressed with someone who at least practiced what they preached, but when they don't, their credibility goes way down in my eyes.”””

Well, AGG, then you should never be impressed with a Christian or anyone pretty much from any mainstream religion because we all fall short. I have a belief in a book called the Bible and in the Holy Trinity.

“””Sorry if this is harsh, Bill”””

And again, AGG, I don’t find this harsh at all. You are not part of what I am a part of. We have different views and opinions. That we can disagree respectfully is fine with me. At the end of the day, I still love you and value you opinion and knowledge.

”””Check”””

“””AGG, you have the patience of Job and are very wise - and kind. I would do well to try to be more like you.”””

Yes, you should………

“””Knight”””

God love you, Brother…

(((CeeCee)))

“””What is the purpose of this thread?”””

For Christians to discuss their views of three issues……

”””I'm wondering, how are you intending to talk to your children about this issue? Are you open to them having pre-marital sex as long as they plan on marrying that person?”””

I’m going to teach my children the word of God and I will also teach them what happens, sadly through life examples, of what happens when mans-will is put in front of God’s will.


Hugz, Thoughtz, & Prayerz

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(((Gnome)))

I'm signing off for the night but wanted to say, I loved your posts and bless you....

Hugs, THoughts, & Prayers


Hugz, Thoughtz, & Prayerz

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If Bill was pretending to be what he was not, then he would never have admitted to his own failure to live up to the standards he professes. But he did admit to his failure, which means that he did not falsely assume an appearance of virtue.

But should it not have come out right upfront with his initial discussions of his MB friends' morality, instead of after questioning? I would have felt much better if Bill said "I am saddened by our failures" instead of "I am saddened by others' failures".


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If I preach "do as I say and not as I do" because I think it's OK for me to behave a certain way, but it's not OK for you to behave that way, then I'm being a hypocrite. However, if I preach "do as I say and not as I did" because I came to recognize the folly of my own behavior and do not want others to make the same mistake, then I am not being a hypocrite.

There is a third scenario, the one that happened here - "you did wrong, I did wrong, I am saddened by your morality"... I don't like the sounds of that, Gnome, sorry.

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The bottom line is that I believe the charges of hypocrisy which have been leveled here are unfounded.

Do you refer to this question: "Doesn't that seem a bit hypocritical?"

I think this is a far cry from "charge of hypocrisy".

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But, by modern-day existential standards, shouldn't the admittedly divergent moral standards of those wayward spouses be respected?

No. But I wouldn't want to see a WS, even a FWS, make judgements about another WS's morality.

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Sheesh. Talk about hypocrisy!

Yeah, I would agree.

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even going so far as to outrightly call him a hypocrite because of ONE thread that you find offensive? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I did not outrightly call him a hypocrite, FHL. If you can find a place where I called Bill a hypocrite, I will be the first to apologize, because I certainly do not consider Bill to be a hypocrite.

What I did do, if you reread my words, was make the suggestion to Bill that he might reconsider his words, because some of us find them hurtful. And in an effort to challenge his thinking, I asked if perhaps he might see a hypocritical element to his words, given his own actions. It was a question for discussion, not an accusation or a charge. He could have easily responded "no, I don't think so". Fine, no problem here. If I question my friend's action by saying "doesn't this seem a bit dishonest?", it would be absurd for him to say that I am charging him with being a liar. One challeneges a person's action or statement, the other attacks the person as a whole. I did the former, not the latter.

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I'll tell you why, because I am not so quick to call people derogatory terms or throw around the label "hypocrite".

FHL,

I did not throw around the label "hypocrite". I was suggesting that you were close to calling Check a hypocrite, without perhaps using the actual word.

Can you point out where I used derogatory terms against anyone?

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I would have felt much better if Bill said "I am saddened by our failures" instead of "I am saddened by others' failures".
While Bill has already admitted that he worded his initial post poorly, I suspect that Bill's intention in that post was not to express his sadness over "others' failures" (although I have no doubt that that does cause him sadness), but rather to express his sadness over others' adoption of moral systems which are likely to end up hurting them. Adopting such moral systems does not constitute "failure" as such, since, as FHL pointed out, it is actually easier to successfully follow a less demanding code. Such success, however, is not necessarily the route to the greatest fulfillment or joy.

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There is a third scenario, the one that happened here - "you did wrong, I did wrong, I am saddened by your morality"... I don't like the sounds of that, Gnome, sorry.
I can appreciate that, but I have found that whenever I find myself reacting badly to something I think I hear, it is always a good idea for me to take a step back and consider what the speaker is actually trying to say. Sometimes I discover that I was reacting to something that just wasn't really there.

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Do you refer to this question: "Doesn't that seem a bit hypocritical?" I think this is a far cry from "charge of hypocrisy".
A valid and significant distinction. My apologies.

This is, however, a good example of what can happen when I do not take a step back and consider what the speaker is actually trying to say. Misinterpretation.

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I wouldn't want to see a WS, even a FWS, make judgements about another WS's morality.
For myself, I don't see an inherent problem with this. I believe there is a very big difference between an unrepentant WS and a repentant FWS. I also believe that there is a big difference between a deliberate "player" and someone who unwittingly got pulled into an affair at a vulnerable moment. Furthermore, I think that one's past experiences can actually be helpful in evaluating a moral system. Under a number of circumstances, a FWS can have a great deal more empathy for what another person is going through than someone who has never even been in a position to be tempted.

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if I’m thinking correctly we’ve even e-mailed a time or two. That we disagree is fine with me, I will further say that being able to disagree respectfully should be noted on threads throughout these boards.

Good memory Bill <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, and for that reason I hope this thread will die with you and me on peaceful terms <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.


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But frankly, AGG I am saddened by the moral decline of America as evident for even having a need for a board such as this one.

I wish you had phrased your first post that way, that would have been a whole different discussion <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

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So again, it’s ok for others to talk of thing unpleasant to me but not ok for me to talk of unpleasant things. AGG, that’s wrong.

Bill, you know that these are two different things. Like you, I also usually ignore threads unpleasant to me, just like you chose to ignore the FWB thread. But if you start a thread where you question the morality of other MB posters, that is a whole different can of worms. No one questioned your morality on the FWB thread, did they?

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We all have a place here.

I totally agree. Maybe that is why I found your initial post so surprising.

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AGG this is around my 3,144th post, I challenge anyone to read through a single one of them and show me where I’ve put up a false appearance of anything.

You know Bill, if you had started your first post with the words "I am saddened by our morality these days", I probably would have not given it a second thought. But saying that you are "saddened by the morality of your MB friends", without saying right there and then that you were no better than them, kinda creates a different slant on it. At least to me, it sounded a bit like a false front, which again was surprising to see from you.

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And again, AGG, I don’t find this harsh at all. You are not part of what I am a part of. We have different views and opinions. That we can disagree respectfully is fine with me. At the end of the day, I still love you and value you opinion and knowledge.

I'll be happy to leave it at that, Bill. Like I said from my very first post here, I know you mean well, and I do not (despite others' statements to the contrary) consider you a hypocrite.

If I failed to get you to consider why some of us might feel hurt by your initial post, I can live with that. If I did make you think, then even better. That's what friends are for.

Peace,

AGG


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Gnome, it's always a pleasure to read your thoughtful posts. I often feel envious (not in a bad way) of how well you state your points.

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I suspect that Bill's intention in that post was not to express his sadness over "others' failures"

...
Sometimes I discover that I was reacting to something that just wasn't really there.

Perhaps this is the bottom line here. These forums are a poor method of communication to begin with, without giving us the ability to see all the nonverbal communication that goes along with the words. No doubt many of our words get misinterpreted.

I don't know Bill's intentions, but as I stated over and over I know Bill enough to know that he is not a hypocrite or any other bad things that others accused me of accusing him (still with me? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />).

AGG


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Hi Bill & FHL04!!

I tend to agree that just because we don't always live up to the standards we set, that does not reflect on the standards.

FHL04- your story really touched me. My NPD wife could not keep her hands off me until about 3 months before the wedding, & I was told on the wedding night that my sex life would not be what I wanted. I constantly struggle with resentment towards God for my situation. Her disorder is getting worse by the day, so I have to be around to run interference for the girls.

To both- Your story really touches me, and kind of gives me hope that perhaps someday, I might be free and have a chance to be married to a loving woman.


May the Lord Bless You and Keep You, John Rahrrrrrr!!
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I understand your intent, LH, but you went about it all wrong. That's what I called you on. You took God's right - judgement of morality - onto yourself. A Christian is never supposed to do that. If you feel it is a sin, then you do not do it. If someone asks you your opinion about something so personal, they yes, tell them what you feel. Yet you should never do this unsolicited, because many people will find it offensive. And you should never forget that Jesus told the crowd "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Undersand what I am saying?

"By my, and what I believe to be the majority of Christians, some of these actions of recent discussion are immoral."

You did it again. By whose standard? Yours and no doubt many others. Yet, there are just as many others who subscribe to a completely different standard. We would ask: How can a discussion be immoral?

BTW, thanks for the hug!

LL, I don't have a problem with someone coming in here and asking questions other Christians. Even on a secular board, there's nothing wrong with this, though I have participated moderated boards that prohibit and will not approve such posts for publication because they require the discussions to remain purely secular. Normally, I do not participate in strictly religious discussions, but leave them to those who enjoy them.

I can understand that LH feels that any sexual contact outside the confines of marriage is immoral. He flatly stated that he feels the poeple who do such things are immoral. Had he not included this judgental statement, he would have recieved no response form me at all. His would simply have been a thread in which I would not have participated.

I've read the materials on this site and I can find nowhere where it speak out against extra-marital sex except for adultry. Nor have I once read anything about morality in any of Harley's materials. This site is about helping people build strong marriages, not to impose any particular religious belief or morality. If it did, as all therapist understand, it would fail utterly. Therapists never question a client's belief system because it is unethical for them to do so.

CheckUR ~ My fellow MBer YOU are the one who has gone about this ALL wrong! Your personal biases & prejudices & lack of objective ethics has become rather renowned to me and many others here.

You set yourself up to be god. You are not! Moreover, from what I read from your hand, you do not follow the precepts of the living Creator God! Some of us here do. We are chosing to participate in LH's discussion. You really have no right or place here with your viewpoints. Often us Christians on this site choose to ignore your posts & positions in order to not stomp on your threads. I would respectfully request the same consideration from you to those of us who wish to have a Christian-morality based discussion.

I for one call for an apology from you to LH & the rest of us who wish to participate in a Christian civil discussion.

Whether or not you have any real sense of decency will be determined by response to this request.

Sincerely,
High Flight

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Hi Everyone,

I'm going to say that I have not gone through and read all the posts - my apologies.

I believe as Christians we are called to become disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ. Disciples do not "pick and choose" what they choose to believe and how they choose to behave. They accept the Truth as God speaks it in His Word and bring their minds, wills, and emotions subject to the Truth by the power of the Holy Spirit.

They live the Truth by the power of the Holy Spirit.

If they fall short - they don't change the Truth to fit their moral standards. They confess their sin.

As Christians - if "Christian" means disciples of Christ - we are called to live a pure, holy, and chaste life. That means we do not have sex outside marriage - and we do not consider a legal divorce within our states as a legitimate divorce before God.

Only when the Lord, not the state, says we are truly divorced are we truly divorced.

For example, the wayward spouse that marries his/her OW or OM - is not in a Christian marriage. The Bible says that the marriage - though the state says it's a marriage - is in the eyes of God ongoing adultery and not a marriage.

So I will not collapse to Christianity being defined as however Christians define their own morals. Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life... and His Word is the standard by which we must define Truth.

It isn't being judgmental to speak the truth in love. To collapse under the pressure of moral relativity is to adopt, and sometimes live, a lie.

So those who stand up for the Truth are disciples.

That we all fall short of living it is evidence we need a Savior - and thank God - Jesus lives!

If 10,000 Christians say it's "okay" to have sex outside marriage - it's not "okay". It's sin. The actions and attitudes of 10,000 Christians don't change the Word. And the one Christian who stands on the Word to call sin sin is telling the truth.

Without the Truth to lead and guide us - we're as blind people groping (no jokes LH!!! lol) in the dark.

SEE YA!!

Laura

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