I don't, but I don't want 2 keep 'jacking other peoples' stuff either.

I'm seeing the fog clear these days, and don't feel much like talking about it here... ...for whatever reason I don't know.

Some of the things my W says when we talk (and we've been starting 2 talk quite a lot), hurt. Even a lot sometimes. Not revelations about the A, necessarily (it still seems that the "stories" I've gotten since d-day have been pretty much "true", at least consistent). Mostly it's stuff about me not meeting her needs all those years ago. She hasn't come out and said that the A's my fault lately, but she might still think that way.

I need to ask her about how she was told RM is getting M'd, because she knows more than she's told me, even if there isn't much 2 tell. Did he call her on the phone? Did she call him? Or was it email? Anyway, one of the things she "knows" that has me curious is that RM's GF apparently said "you 2 should get 2gether once more 2 get it out of your system" or words 2 that effect, 2 which I replied with remarks about how most affairees would like nothing more than one more time 2gether 2 "end things", and that's why any contact with a former OP or even an old GF or BF is so dangerous (and why classmates.com is so grody-motivated). I don't know anything about the GF. I have no idea what kind of person she is, but I also don't care 2 know. Based on her remark, though, I figure she's ignorant or even s2pid. Certainly naive.

I even said something like that about classmates, and she was surprised. I told her that I'd gone in and deleted my membership info on classmates for that very reason (been getting a lot of annoying junk mail from them anyway, and no "old friends" have gotten in touch with me that way besides). Not that I'd have an A with a HS sweetheart, such that there were any.

I'm delighted that I'm truly no CAer anymore. She says she never was, and listening 2 her you might think that's the case now. Well, maybe it is now, but secrecy is also CA.

Like I've said before elsewhere, though, CA was my biggest problem. I told my W that in convo over the weekend. I'm so much better at telling her how I feel about things now. I know she appreciates it, but I don't always know if it'll be enough in the long haul.

Part of coming out 2 one another is hearing things that might not seem pleasant, of course. For me, it was her desire 2 say something 2 RM and/or his GF, wishing them happiness and stuff. For her, it was my reaction 2 that. Not appropriate. We should both leave them alone.

She asked me "wouldn't you like 2 see him happy?" And I replied that "I'd like 2 see him learn the life-lessons he needs 2 learn. Often that involves pain and suffering, as it has for me. As for whether he's happy or not? I could care less."

Anyway, I hope she's done with the contact crap once and for all. She did admit 2 realizing that she was surprised at the depth of her attachment 2 RM when she heard the news last week.

I think these realizations/convos are important, and they're clearly a first, necessary step. Sometimes they feel good, sometimes they hurt. We're both sick of the drama, and that's good. We've talked more about our IC sessions over the years in the past week than we did over the past 3.5 years (mostly she said more than she's said, I've told her a lot about my own sessions prior). I'd like us 2 go 2 MC 2gether, but she hasn't offered, and I feel like I've offered many times, including the recent past. Not that I feel it's "her 2rn" (game playing). More like I want 2 see the desire come from her at some point. And it's not like I'm holding an ultimatum over her head if she doesn't think of it on her own. We've got time.

Time. We talked about that, 2, because she's asked me "how long does it take 2 get over that kind of attachment". And I've responded with the "2-5 years, once contact stops forever". And while it may or may not take years for her, she knows that it'll take a while. And I certainly know.

All the emotional detachment has been good and healthy for me. But it is still a challenge not 2 detach 2 much, lest I just prefer ending the M over doing the hard work of rebuilding it.

There. I posted. I didn't enjoy it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

I know a boy that broke his finger. They thought it was a sprain, and ignored it. After a few weeks, it was apparent that it wasn't healing right so they went to the Doc.

He said it had broken and was healing bent, but that it could be fixed. Just had to brake it again, straighten it, and hold it in place while it healed properly.

Reminds me of what you are going through. It doesn't feel good, but I hope it ends up OK.

Even marriages that never had an A are painful sometimes. Ask JL what I am talking about - he can tell you.

Sorry for the hard times, I hope the good ones are just around the corner.

SS

"secrecy is also CA"

you betcha it is

So don't.

Oh, wait, you already did.

In that case,

I sure understand not wanting to talk about it here. Me neither.

Some stuff is just too confusing. No sense jumping to conclusions.

Some stuff will never make sense. No further conclusions needed.

And other stuff is way too personal - especially stuff about W and her personal problems (all A related, cause and effect). I don't feel this forum is an appropriate place to expose her. She would not like it and I am trying to POJA, after all.

So that leaves thread jacking. Or thread killing....

BTW, do you use a digital camera with your scope? What make? What do you recommend for a beginner?

Cool! A question I can answer!

Yep, I use digital cameras. For planets, a good webcam and shareware software (Registax) works the best. Cheap, 2.

For Faint Fuzzies, the best is a thermoelectrically-cooled astro ccd camera. But they can get expensive fast. Another alternative is a DSLR, particularly the Canon Digital Rebels. Still bucks, though.

-ol' 2long

I have a better than ave 6 Mpix dcam already. Are there coupling mounts for eye pieces so I can use it?

Or are telescope cam detectors a different breed all together from everyday dcams?

Should we take my OT picking your brain like this off-line?

I'm just full of questions today, huh.

Well all I gotta say 2long, is at least you are talking. And that's sompin, eh?

A true form of intimacy, even if it hurts.

If I had learned one thing a year and a half ago, which I just learned recently, it would be that the greatest R's of all begin with friendship, first and foremost.

Friendship is ground zero. A clean slate. A beginning which starts at innocense.

If I could have known a year and a half ago to look within, at how I could have contributed to the failure of my R, and at how I could improve...

All change begins with oneself, especially the dynamics of a relationship.

So as much as it hurts, it is the best place to start recovery, personal and relational.

That is what I wish I had learned from this board.

And maybe it was here, but I was to blind to see.

Oh yeah, this is you thread. LOL

I think talking is a very good place for you and your W to start, even if it is hurtful for you.

And I do understand that it might be easier to throw in the towel at this point, but you don't strike me as someone who wants to take the easy road.

Just got to put on your teflon armour 2long for a little while longer, and then you will know what to do, or what the future holds for you in terms of your marriage. Or what to leave behind.

(((Weaver)))

You sound better.

I do too, I think.

I feel good today yes. And it is so good to see your name again. Like an old friend Ap, your kindness is like a blanket of warmth, even through this cold computer screen.


We are all going to be okay...with a little help from our friends. (and our Father upstairs <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

2long, I really like what Weaver said about becoming friends. An olive branch and a fresh start. Sounds like a good safe place.

I also understand the fine line between apathy and detaching. You do have to be very careful. I know that I have become way too indifferent lately. My W suggested getting a second dog and I responded (in front of 12 yr.old daughter)"this is not an enviornment to bring a dog into". This was after my W jokingly said to me at the pet store; "if we divorce we'll each have a dog". Her comment was in jest but my later comment hurt her (I know because she repeated it back to me).

So even while you're hearing "wouldn't you like to see RM happy?", you have to remind yourself that you're the lighthouse. Not saying you LBed, but we all need to be careful not to. On the one hand my indifference is really getting the desired reaction (defogging) but I think of it as re-entering the atmosphere; it shouldn't be done too quickly or all could be lost.

As painful as your conversations may be, they are still positive. But going back to Weaver's comment you have to remember to have lots of fun in between the difficult conversations. And RM's GF's comments are obviously very naive.

and ... probably not relayed accurately !!!!!!

I mean

2Long heard it from his W ... who filtered it from RM ..... RM the lying cheating poop-head .... and we think this is an accurate representation of what soon to be Mrs. Meat actually said? Me thinks not.

This is something RM said to 2Long's wife in order to keep his foot in the door ---> as in "My ~next wife~ won't really mind if you and I continue our affair .... she's Ok with it so we can get it out of our systems."

this smells like 2-week-old-rotten-scrod-fish to me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Weaver:

Yeah, at least we're talking. My W is affectionate, 2, and that's nice. But she won't say ILY still.

So, it is hard. I find I have long moments of doubt that what I'm doing is right - like maybe I'm being hoodwinked even now - even after we've had an uplifting conversation.

So, it's weird, it's hard, and emotionally, I'm not always sure I'm doing the right things. But intellec2ally, it feels like I am. So I'll keep on for a while. The A didn't develop over night, and it won't go away that quickly either.

-ol' 2long

WOE:

"This was after my W jokingly said to me at the pet store; "if we divorce we'll each have a dog". Her comment was in jest but my later comment hurt her (I know because she repeated it back to me). "

Why do people say this if it's not what they want? I know, some kind of perverse self-protection mechanism. Pessimistic fatalism.

Pep:

"and ... probably not relayed accurately !!!!!!"

I put NO stock in 2nd-hand (or much more) "information", such as it isn't, in anything relayed 2 me regarding the Meats or their affiliates.

And, like I told my W (again, but heard(?) this time), I've had 2 be so careful with her so she'll inform me of contact when it occurs - lest I drive her further underground by LBing in the slightest way. ...couldn't do that crap forever and get anywhere 2ward recovery.


I'd love 2 get her 2 join me in MC with SH, but I don't know if she'll do it.

I did talk 2 her the other day about SKM's Chronicles, and I think I'm going 2 send them 2 her. In many ways, I think this ability 2 talk 2 her about things like that has been the most rewarding change in our R from my view.

-ol' 2long

2long,

Do you know if Mrs. Rat Meat knows about the affair and her "permission" to continue?

"The A didn't develop over night, and it won't go away that quickly either."

As you know, my W's LTA did start over night. But I'll let the rest of your sentance stand uncontested...

Loy:

I don't even know who this fu2re Mrs Meat is. I met the former Mrs Meat, with her H, at a party about 15 years ago. I don't remember what they look like. Like $h!+ though, I imagine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


I've talked 2 my W about this a number of times. I didn't think it was "fair" that I know so little about them, but now I don't care - I just want my W 2 feel the same way I do, that they should be out of our lives entirely. It shouldn't matter what's going on over there. Not at all. We shouldn't be getting semi-infrequent updates, even.

When I told her that I didn't care if he was happy, but that he learn something, I told her that there was a time when I wished he'd be run over by a truck - driven by ME - but I don't want 2 waste the emotional calories on him anymore. I even suggested that she MIGHT be able 2 persuade RM 2 dump the GF, and that I would let her go (knowing that I never had control over her before anyway) if she wanted 2 be with him.

...this whole train of thought is depressing, though. It brings up other things that I find dis2rbing in our "current position." Like her telling me that she likes being alone (she's gone on work-related trips for a month or more at a time, and didn't miss us while she was gone), and my own realization, several months ago - maybe it was last year(?) - that *I* don't miss her when *she* is gone.

I may have waited 2long 2 implement some plan here, but again... ...intellec2ally, I don't think that's the case. There's a lot of good we're doing 2 (especially the talking), that just wasn't on the top of my head when I started these posts.

Back on your heads!
-ol' 2long

Knowing about who, what, and where rat meat is, is not wasting emotional calories, it is about your wife bringing down one of the walls she put between you with this affair.

Rat meat has pitched a life line to your wife at the end of their affair, to use whenever she would like in the future with the blessing of his bride. She can use her get out of free jail card whenever she wants, or whenever she is weak.

Mr.Loy didn't tell me where OW moved. He told me he wouldn't tell me. Something about how he couldn't remember, but he didn't want me looking into it. I felt manipulated. Who was he to with-hold information from me that was public? So I found out.

Was that POJA, nope. But POJA doesn't work unless both spouses are willing to compromise.

I wanted to know where to find my WH if the A starts up again. And knowing where she lives, it sort of eliminates the possibility that her apartment will become a safe house for poor behavior. Also, I think on some level, it increases the likelyhood that WH would get caught and reduces the temptation. I hope.

Loy:

I really do understand your points. My W never "left" 2 be with RM. She reiterated the other day that he never wanted 2 move back 2 So. Cal, and she doesn't want 2 live in NM (funny, if it weren't for RM being in that state, and my work being here, I ac2ally like NM).

I can always snoop better, and she can always hide better. I'm done with all that, though. I will need her 2 convince me she's being faithful, but if she can't or doesn't want 2, I would prefer she tell me that, rather than hide it again.

-ol' 2long

Maybe with building her trust in you by being "safe" this will come to pass...her ability to talk to you from her trust.

It's not fair 2long and it's not right, but those who cheat are not in the same place we are mentally. It is a hard thing to remember, but their thinking processes are really not the same as ours, so we can't expect the same from them until they are.

If I didn't know how much you had already put into this marriage my sentiments might be different, but I think you have been through this 2long to change your course right now.

"slowlee, slowlee gets the monkey" (to quote one of my favorite relationship coaches)

And "things take time" to quote his other famous advice.

By developing an open, safe and honest R with her(through positive communication and interaction) now will only give you the best chance of recovery,for both of you...together or apart.

And as WOE pointed out, don't forget to have some fun during the process by leaving all the "thinking about things and speculating" from time to time.

Thanks for the reminders, weaver.

I've been reading on FGG's thread the past 2ple days, 2. And I have some thoughts along these lines for him, but I don't know... ...just tired right now, I guess.

Got a paper 2 review that's late anyway. I owe it 2 the authors 2 get that done.

My W called a little while ago just 2 say "hi." She hasn't done that in a while.

I hope she's okay. Sounded okay, but I'll have 2 make sure when I get home.

-ol' 2long